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Danjel 10-11-2003 06:10 AM

Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna: Current Claimant to the Throne 1: 2003 - Oct 2006
 
1 Attachment(s)
Grand Duchess Maria, the cureent heir to the Imperial throne

Danjel 10-11-2003 06:15 AM

2 Attachment(s)
her wedding

hillary_nugent 10-26-2004 11:40 PM

Do the existing Russian Royal families get to be recognised by their royal titles? do they get special treatment and stuff?

Marengo 10-27-2004 06:01 AM

only out of courtesey, just like all the other royals from vanished monarchies. Grand Duchess Maria Wladimirovna, head of the imperial house attended the wedding of Felipe and Letizia and the Kulikovski's and Prince Dmitri Romanov attended the wedding of Frederik and Mary

semisquare 05-19-2005 03:25 PM

are there any people who can claim the russian throne?

Warren 05-20-2005 01:42 PM

Romanov Claimants
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by semisquare
are there any people who can claim the Russian throne?

Yes. There are two rival claimants: Grand Duchess Maria of Russia, and Prince Nikolai Romanov.

Grand Duke Vladimir succeeded his father, Grand Duke Kirill, as Head of the Imperial House of Russia in 1938.

Vladimir had one child, HIH Grand Duchess Maria (born 1953), who succeeded her father on his death in 1992. She was married to HRH Prince Franz Wilhelm of Prussia, and has one child, HIH Grand Duke Georgi (b 1981).

The other claimant is Prince Nikolai (b 1922), who styles himself "Chief of the Family Romanov."

The details of why Nikolai doesn't recognise the claims of Grand Duchess Maria are too detailed to go into here, but basically rest on the supposed "non-equal" status of Maria's mother, Grand Duchess Leonida, who was born a Princess Bagration-Mukhransky. Her family were once Kings of Georgia, so it is open to fruitless debate as to how "equal" or "unequal" this marriage was.

In any case, the mother of Nikolai was a countess.

In terms of being the most senior Romanov alive today by direct descent from Tsar Alexander II, Grand Duchess Maria is the more logical claimant. However, others will debate this (endlessly!).

An off-topic side-issue: Vladimir-Maria-Georgi are all descendants of Queen Victoria, as Grand Duke Kirill married Princess Victoria Melita of Edinburgh (and Saxe-Coburg & Gotha), the daughter of Prince Alfred, Duke of Edinburgh, Victoria's second son.

In another twist to the tale, Prince Alfred married Grand Duchess Maria of Russia, the only daughter of Tsar Alexander II, while Grand Duke Kirill's father was a son of the same Tsar.
.

Von Schlesian 06-30-2005 01:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by branchg

Vladimir's daughter, Grand Duchess Maria, his widow, Grand Duchess Leonida, and her son, Grand Duke George (Prince of Prussia as well), have been very active in visiting Russia, are well-received by the Government and maintain strong relations with the Russian Orthodox Church.

Of course, this too has been very controversial with the remaining family, headed by Prince Nicholas Romanov, a morganatic descendant who heads the Family Association, contesting the status and treatment of Maria, whom they do not recognize as the curatrix of the Imperial throne.

This is quite true. I am in quite close contact with very strong supporters of Grand Duchess Maria who also feel the opposite is true. That Prince Nicholas Romanov (due to his morganatic birth), is also un-rightfully referred to as the Head of the Imperial family, and not a legitimate heir (according to the statutes of 1797).
In my opinion, if morganatic marriage affects the Royal House of Hohenzollern, it should affect the Imperial House of Romanov as well, however that doesn't mean I in any way support replacing Prince Nicholas, it was just an interesting point.

Sean.~ 06-30-2005 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Von Schlesian
This is quite true. I am in quite close contact with very strong supporters of Grand Duchess Maria who also feel the opposite is true. That Prince Nicholas Romanov (due to his morganatic birth), is also un-rightfully referred to as the Head of the Imperial family, and not a legitimate heir (according to the statutes of 1797).
In my opinion, if morganatic marriage affects the Royal House of Hohenzollern, it should affect the Imperial House of Romanov as well, however that doesn't mean I in any way support replacing Prince Nicholas, it was just an interesting point.

Nicholas wouldn't even be a Prince under the house laws. Well, at least not a "Prince Romanov", as no such title existed for morganauts in Imperial Russia. Moroever, when cornered, he claims that he isnt claiming to be head of the Imperial Family, but rather head of the family association. AFAIC, he's full of himself. There are other more senior line descendants who would qualify for the position over him.

Moreover, he holds that Maria's father's marriage was not equal and this is why he disputes her claim. He's even referred to her publicly, in print as his "obese cousin".

Sean.~ 06-30-2005 10:43 AM

Quote:

This is not quite accurate. None of the former nobility or Romanovs who remained in Russia at the time of Lenin survived the Revolution. They were all executed. The survivors had either escaped from Russia or were living in another country at the time of the Revolution.

After the deaths of the Tsar and his family, the next eligible dynast under the Pauline laws was Grand Duke Cyril, a cousin of Nicholas II. He became the Head of the Imperial House in exile, while the Tsar's mother, Dowager Empress Marie, and his two sisters, Grand Duchess Xenia and Grand Duchess Olga, lived in Denmark and England.

Cyril's family, the children of Grand Duke Vladimir and his wife, Grand Duchess Marie Pavolvna, included Grand Duke Boris, Grand Duke Andrew and Grand Duchess Helen (who married Prince Nicholas of Greece and is the mother of Princess Marina, who became the Duchess of Kent) all survived as did another uncle, Grand Duke Nicholas.
There were other, more senior line survivors than the Nichaelovichi (NIcholas's brother survived, too). There were numerous Constaninovichi survivors (Princess Vera Constaninova, the last undisputed dynast, died three yeas ago in the states), Mihailovichi survivors, and the Pavlovichi (direct descendants of Alexander II).

Alice Vilghelmina 06-30-2005 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by branchg
Vladimir's daughter, Grand Duchess Maria, his widow, Grand Duchess Leonida, and her son, Grand Duke George (Prince of Prussia as well), have been very active in visiting Russia, are well-received by the Government and maintain strong relations with the Russian Orthodox Church.
.

yes, they visited "motherland", tried to draw attention and to make people respect them, but....One visit about 6=7 years ago is nothing, cause Russians respect their own last royalties but royal descendants......many of them don't speak Russian and have a quarter of Russian blood in good case. They are interested in Russia only for the sake of a political benefit. no more.



Alice Vilghelmina 06-30-2005 10:53 AM

Other case is interesting to me.

Nicolas and all family recognize the great-grandson of Alexander II ( from the morganatic marriage with princess Ekaterina Dolgorukaja-Jurjevskaja.) Dmitriy partly.

They recognize him as a member of Romanov/s family, but do not let him to be in the Association
Though on a maternal line he's more notable
then Nicolas and other "legal" members cause the ancestors of Ekaterina were Rjurikovichi.

Vecchiolarry 06-30-2005 10:38 PM

Royal Elections......
 
Hello Alice,

It is nice to hear from somebody in Russia.

I don't pretend to know who is the legitimate claimant to the Russian Throne. But if ever the Russian people wanted a monarchy again perhaps they would have to do what they did in 1613 abd elect a candidate.

Then, the Michaelovichi, Nicholaivichi, Constantinovichi and Pavlovichi and certainly the Rurikovichi could campaign for the Throne!!!! :D

Regards,
Larry

Alice Vilghelmina 07-01-2005 04:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vecchiolarry
It is nice to hear from somebody in Russia.

Thanks, Larry
Quote:

I don't pretend to know who is the legitimate claimant to the Russian Throne. But if ever the Russian people wanted a monarchy again perhaps they would have to do what they did in 1613 abd elect a candidate.
Quote:

Then, the Michaelovichi, Nicholaivichi, Constantinovichi and Pavlovichi and certainly the Rurikovichi could campaign for the Throne!!!!
May be but the question of the inheritance is very difficult and confused, cause the straight heir is absent. Young brother of Nikolay II, Mikhail refused from the right of the throne. That days there weren't very many members of the family who wants to wear the crone. Then cousin of the Nikolas Kirill decided to do it independent from the opinion of others.

But it’s not legitimate, cause the heir could be sun/daughter of the ruling king or his granddaughter/grandsun on paternal line. So now nobody could be the heir. Those Romanovs who live aboard are alien for us.
Maria Vladimirovna was a political card of Yeltsin. It was very favorable for both sides.
Putin doesn’t need in such actions.

What’s about elections.

Unfortunately Russians perceive any ruler ( General Secretary, President or somebody else) like a “Tsar-Father”, so Russian people will not insist to revive the monarchy.

Sean.~ 07-10-2005 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alexandra Feodorovna
Yes, according to the Russian imperial rules, Prince Georgiy does not qualify for a throne because Emperor Paul established a law according to which the throne could only go to male decendents of the Romanov family. I guess he was really annoyed by the fact that his mother continued to rule the counry long after he reached an appropriate age. The law was one of the major reasons Nicholas II and his wife were so anxious to have a son!

That's not entirely correct. Women could indeed succeed to the throne, however, only after all male dynasts. The argument is that Maria Vladimorovna (and her son after her) are the the legitimate claimants because there are no qualified male dynasts left who. They are all morganauts.

Sean.~ 07-10-2005 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mashka
Are there still alot of Romanovs in Russia? I'm very interested in the last Tsar and his family, and the Anastasia mystery. I know almost everything about them, but I wasn't aware that there were still so many Romanovs.

No, not really in Russia -- at least not known/recognized legitimate descendants. The exception would be the Iskenders (I think there is only one), who descend from the unequal union of Grand Duke Nicholas Constantinovich, son of Grand Duke Constantine Nichaelovich.

branchg 07-14-2005 12:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean.~
Nicholas wouldn't even be a Prince under the house laws. Well, at least not a "Prince Romanov", as no such title existed for morganauts in Imperial Russia. Moroever, when cornered, he claims that he isnt claiming to be head of the Imperial Family, but rather head of the family association. AFAIC, he's full of himself. There are other more senior line descendants who would qualify for the position over him.

Moreover, he holds that Maria's father's marriage was not equal and this is why he disputes her claim. He's even referred to her publicly, in print as his "obese cousin".

There is no question under the Imperial Pauline Laws that Nicholas Romanov is not a dynast. At most, he would have been a Prince Romanovsky with the style of Serene Highness, which he is not, because his father never sought a morganatic style from Grand Duke Cyril. Therefore, he is simply the senior surviving morganatic male descendant with the death of Paul Ilyinsky, former mayor of Palm Beach, Fla. and head of a family association.

However, it is true there is certainly some controversy as to whether Maria's mother, Leonida Bagration, was truly royal under the old rules. The Pauline Laws required dynasts to make an equal marriage to a "sovereign" house in order to qualify for succession to the throne.

At the time of the Revolution, the Bagrations of Georgia were part of the Nobility, although this was in violation of the treaty between Georgia and Russia, which stated they would retain their status as Royal Highnesses after being absorbed into the Russian Empire.

In exile, Grand Duke Vladimir later issued an imperial manifesto in response to a question of the status of the Bagrations from the Count of Barcelona. At that time, he reviewed the status of the family and ruled that if the imperial throne was restored, he would restore the status of the family to Royal Highnesses and Prince/Princess of Georgia, as called for in the treaty.

The Count accepted this and allowed a Bagration to marry into the Spanish royal family, but it was not considered to be an equal marriage. So, even here, the imperial perogative of the head of the house was certainly respected to a degree, but not completely. I personally do not think she is from an equal, sovereign house as a Bagration.

Many royals in Europe, with the notable exception of His Majesty King Juan Carlos, do not recognize Maria as the Head of the Imperial House of Romanov. Instead, most of them believe the Romanov dynasty died with the death of Grand Duke Vladimir. They certainly do not recognize Maria's son, George, as a Grand Duke of Russia. He is correctly known as George, Prince von Prussia, and is a member of the House of Hohenzollern.

branchg 07-14-2005 01:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean.~
There were other, more senior line survivors than the Nichaelovichi (NIcholas's brother survived, too). There were numerous Constaninovichi survivors (Princess Vera Constaninova, the last undisputed dynast, died three yeas ago in the states), Mihailovichi survivors, and the Pavlovichi (direct descendants of Alexander II).

Princess Vera was definitely the last of the undisputed dynasts. Even Vladimir, some argue, was not eligible due to his marriage to Leonida Bagration. So, there probably is no eligible dynast anymore.

Sean.~ 07-14-2005 01:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by branchg
Princess Vera was definitely the last of the undisputed dynasts. Even Vladimir, some argue, was not eligible due to his marriage to Leonida Bagration. So, there probably is no eligible dynast anymore.

Ekaterina Ionova, daughter of Prince Ioan Constantinovich and Helen of Serbia, and niece of the aforementioned Vera Constantinova. She 'renounced', though.

branchg 07-14-2005 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alice Vilghelmina
yes, they visited "motherland", tried to draw attention and to make people respect them, but....One visit about 6=7 years ago is nothing, cause Russians respect their own last royalties but royal descendants......many of them don't speak Russian and have a quarter of Russian blood in good case. They are interested in Russia only for the sake of a political benefit. no more.



Well, that's certainly not true of Maria. Her father, Grand Duke Vladimir, was at least two-thirds Russian and married an Orthodox Russian, Leonida Bagration. Maria is highly educated and fluent in Russian, French, Spanish and English.

branchg 07-15-2005 12:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tiaraprin
There is dispute to who is the real heir of the Imperial throne.

Grand Duke Vladimir and his wife (whom some believe has a falsified royal pedigree from Georgia) only had one daughter, Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna. Grand Duke Vladmir issued a decree riding the Imperial House of the Salic Law allowing his daughter to be the heir. Many Russian royals disagree with the Proclamation and consider the Grand Duchess ineligible. Thus the throne would pass to the next highest Prince who was Nicholas Romanov until he passed on.

That's not true. Leonida is unquestionably a Princess Bagration, however, the real issue is whether Vladimir's marriage meets the requirements of the Pauline laws that a dynast make a equal marriage to a sovereign house in order to qualify for the succession. On this point, Vladimir's claim is greatly weakened.

The Bagrations ruled the Kingdom of Georgia as Princes. However, there is no question the Romanov Tsars forcibly annexed Georgia into the Russian Empire and The Bagrations were stripped of their royal status and made members of the Russian Nobility. The terms of the treaty included a provision in which the head of the Bagration dynasty was to remain a Royal Highness and Prince of Georgia, but this never happened.

It is highly unlikely a marriage to a Bagration would have been viewed by the Tsar as meeting the requirement of the Pauline Laws as an equal marriage. The marriage would have been treated as honorable, but morganatic in all likelihood.

Maria's son is a Hohenzollern, not a Romanov. She married a Prince of Prussia and her son takes his name from him, not her. In reality, the Romanovs have no eligible dynasts left.


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