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iowabelle 08-02-2005 01:05 PM

"The Firm" - Penny Junor
 
I was watching The Today Show yesterday when Penny Junor turns up to discuss her new book. From the short interview I guess it's a look at the Royal Family as a business.

The most interesting comment she made IMO was about the triangle of Charles, Diana and Camilla. Penny says that Camilla played no part in the break-up of the marriage. So, I think the logical conclusion is, based on that statement, that if there had been no Camilla, Charles and Diana would still have broken up.

While this might be Penny toadying to Charles and Camilla, reviewers have said that she treats Charles critically in this book.

So what do you all think about that idea? Has anyone read this book yet?

sara1981 08-02-2005 02:53 PM

i saw at Barnes and Nobles but i like to read about that between Prince Charles and late Diana,Princess of Wales and Camilla also!

Sara Boyce

auntie 08-02-2005 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iowabelle
I was watching The Today Show yesterday when Penny Junor turns up to discuss her new book. From the short interview I guess it's a look at the Royal Family as a business.

The most interesting comment she made IMO was about the triangle of Charles, Diana and Camilla. Penny says that Camilla played no part in the break-up of the marriage. So, I think the logical conclusion is, based on that statement, that if there had been no Camilla, Charles and Diana would still have broken up.

I don't think so, as even if Camilla didn't do anything, her exsistence and history with Charles definitly contributed to the strain on their marriage,, she may have not actively destroyed their marriage, but was a catalyst to their failed marriage, ie: passively contributed to their divorce...

Reina 08-02-2005 03:15 PM

She encouraged PCharles to marry Diana too.

una 08-02-2005 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iowabelle
Penny says that Camilla played no part in the break-up of the marriage. So, I think the logical conclusion is, based on that statement, that if there had been no Camilla, Charles and Diana would still have broken up.

In the early years of the marriage, Diana incorrectly believed that Charles was still involved with Camilla, and no one could persuade her otherwise. She finally admitted that this was not the case in an 1997 interview with Ingrid Seward.

Throughout her life, Diana was subject to irrational jealousies, Camilla was not the only one, do you know the story of Tiggy and the Christmas party?

Charles and Diana would have broken up anyway. They were hopelessly mismatched, and Diana would have found some other target for her jealousy. Her emotional problems would have made almost any marriage a short one.

Reina 08-02-2005 03:57 PM

Your explanation is so one-sided. Charles was immature too. If he was more mature he would have supported Diana. And how do you know that Charles and camilla weren't emotionally broken up?

Elspeth 08-02-2005 05:27 PM

I don't remember who it was who said it, but one of the most accurate (in my opinion) commentaries on the Charles-Diana mismatch was by the person who said something like "two emotionally needy people came together and found that they only had demands to make." It's possible that, without Camilla, Charles and Diana would have stayed together, but I don't think it would have been a happy or fulfilling marriage for either of them.

Idriel 08-02-2005 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by una
In the early years of the marriage, Diana incorrectly believed that Charles was still involved with Camilla, and no one could persuade her otherwise.

Well Charles famously sported cufflinks spelling his and Camilla's lover nicknames initials during his honeymoon. So maybe they were not lovers anymore, but they were still involved. And I'm not talking about where and with whom he did spend his last bachelor night.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Elspeth
I don't remember who it was who said it, but one of the most accurate (in my opinion) commentaries on the Charles-Diana mismatch was by the person who said something like "two emotionally needy people came together and found that they only had demands to make." It's possible that, without Camilla, Charles and Diana would have stayed together, but I don't think it would have been a happy or fulfilling marriage for either of them.

I totally agree with you. And also with Reina who said that without Camilla, he would maybe have not married Diana in the first place.
This union was doomed from the start anyway.

MoonlightRhapsody 08-02-2005 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reina
...And how do you know that Charles and camilla weren't emotionally broken up?

I agree; I think they were never emotionally "broken-up". Here's Camilla, though maybe no longer physically involved with Charles, a guest at Diana and Charles' wedding. As an ex-lover, she should have stayed away. On Charles' part, he wore cufflinks Camilla gave him on his wedding night! If those aren't signs of emotional attachment, I don't know what is.

Personally, I think emotional infidelity is just as bad as physical infidelity, if not worse. Your strongest emotional and physical ties should be with your spouse, not with an ex- or with someone else. Anything less than total commitment to each other is making a mockery of marriage as an institution.

On the topic of Penny Junor, I think she's buttering up to Charles and Camilla. I've read a bit of the book and, thought Charles and Camilla don't seem to be the main focus of the book, it's like she's trying to be on both sides of the fence. I guess she'd have to be if she wishes to continue writing about the royals with some degree of first-hand accounts.

Reina 08-02-2005 06:11 PM

Yeah. But Diana, towards the end of her life, really started groing up and standing on her own two feet. Perhaps if they were still married she would have matured and maybe that would have helped Charles to mature. Also let's not forget that Charles like the most attention. Diana naturally took the spotlight, which made Charles mad and increased his insecurity.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elspeth
I don't remember who it was who said it, but one of the most accurate (in my opinion) commentaries on the Charles-Diana mismatch was by the person who said something like "two emotionally needy people came together and found that they only had demands to make." It's possible that, without Camilla, Charles and Diana would have stayed together, but I don't think it would have been a happy or fulfilling marriage for either of them.


Feberin 08-02-2005 06:49 PM

I think Charles and Diana would have eventually broken up with or without Camilla. Like others have said they were horribly ill-suited for each other and never should have married.

maryshawn 08-02-2005 07:07 PM

And What Role Did The Courtiers Play?
 
Penny Junor is a supporter of Charles and Diana is no longer with us to give her views of the matter.

Prince Charles was famous for forging deep emotional attachments with married women--Camilla, the lady whose name I can't recall but went by the nickname "Kanga,".....I think one biographer inferred he found them safe, discreet and capable of providing the mothering he felt he needed. And he definitely resented the attention Diana received when she turned almost overnight from a gawky teen sort to a stunning, very personable and popular, "human" royal people clearly related to and liked.

Diana was needy and resented his close friendships with his married female chums and his "horsey" set. Even those who liked/loved her felt it would be difficult to find a man who had all the qualities she needed: successful, always "there" for her, a father figure yet young enough to be fun,......

The marriage was a disaster, undoubtedly. BUT I tend to place blame at the feet of the courtiers who run the Firm. I think I've read almost every book on the marriage and those in Charles and Diana's respective "camps" definitely fueled the fires by "leaking" things, spreading rumors, feeding tidbits to the press, and saying "oh yes, sir or ma'am" whenever Charles and Diana expressed unhappiness with their situation. So the couple's insecurities and jealousies turned into a power struggle--which was essentially a power struggle going on between their "handlers." Now, the behind the scenes lives of the courtiers is the fascinating element in all of this as, at the end of the day, they serve the royal who best serves their own personal interests.

Lady Jean 08-02-2005 07:21 PM

maryshawn: Charles' other married lady friend "Kanga" was Dale, Lady Tryon.

maryshawn 08-02-2005 07:46 PM

That's it! Thank you. She was a designer whose clothes Diana later wore. I think she died from some terrible illness about 7 years ago.....Seemed like a very nice woman.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Jean
maryshawn: Charles' other married lady friend "Kanga" was Dale, Lady Tryon.


iowabelle 08-02-2005 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryshawn
That's it! Thank you. She was a designer whose clothes Diana later wore. I think she died from some terrible illness about 7 years ago.....Seemed like a very nice woman.

Apparently, Charles dumped Kanga rather abruptly and cruelly.

tiaraprin 08-03-2005 02:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iowabelle
I was watching The Today Show yesterday when Penny Junor turns up to discuss her new book. From the short interview I guess it's a look at the Royal Family as a business.

The most interesting comment she made IMO was about the triangle of Charles, Diana and Camilla. Penny says that Camilla played no part in the break-up of the marriage. So, I think the logical conclusion is, based on that statement, that if there had been no Camilla, Charles and Diana would still have broken up.

While this might be Penny toadying to Charles and Camilla, reviewers have said that she treats Charles critically in this book.

So what do you all think about that idea? Has anyone read this book yet?

I work for a major bookstore chain and am starting to read the book. While Diana and Charles were mismatched, Camilla played a big role in making the whole marriage implode. Diana was shy, insecure and kept seeing this woman around who seemed to know more about her husband and what he was doing than her. Charles never gave up his emotional attachment to Camilla and she never gave up hers to him. Charles even got permission from his father supposedly that if the marriage went sour within five years, he could go back to Camilla. Gee, Charles was really positive about his marriage, huh?

Truth be told, I don't think Charles would ever have married and Camilla would have remained a mistress if Charles had the backbone to stand up to his mummy and daddy. He is very much like his great uncle, Edward, looking for maternal affection from safe, married women. Charles was ill equipped to be a husband to any woman at that time--he is selfish, self-absorbed, and surrounded by sycophants. Diana was emotionally wounded from her childhood also. I wish they had never married and Diana lived her life as a commoner. Perhaps she would have found happiness.

Iluvbertie 08-03-2005 03:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tiaraprin
I wish they had never married and Diana lived her life as a commoner. Perhaps she would have found happiness.

And then we wouldn't even known about her existence and the world wouldn't have her to worship.

Warren 08-03-2005 04:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrissy57
And then we wouldn't even known about her existence and the world wouldn't have her to worship.

And no Wills and Harry either!

Elspeth 08-03-2005 09:30 AM

Nope - we'd be looking at having a Queen Beatrice in the next generation if Charles had never married.

una 08-03-2005 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reina
Your explanation is so one-sided. Charles was immature too. If he was more mature he would have supported Diana.

Yes, I see that Charles was somewhat immature too, but I think a fairly "normal" woman could support him. But with Diana, I think only a rare man indeed could have supported her. I don't think we realize just how emotionally demanding she was, and how much support she needed -- living with her on a daily basis would require the patience of a saint. When she was in Buckingham P. before the marriage, she used her footman for support, frequently asking him to stay with her and chat. Here's what he said: "I had night after night talking to her. I would go up at 11 pm to my room exhausted from listening to her. It was terribly mentally draining." And he didn't have the added burden of her mood swings and jealousy.


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