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popsicle 03-21-2005 02:18 AM

Questions about future Queens, Dowagers and surviving spouses
 
i have a quick question

let's say William becomes king after Charles and marries a woman who then becomes queen (consort), but Will dies without having any children. So then the throne passes to Harry, who is also married, and who then becomes king. Does William's wife continue to be called 'queen'? Does she give this title up to Harry's wife??

sorry that might be a silly question but i was just wondering! :)

Warren 03-21-2005 05:23 AM

William's widow, as a Queen Consort, would be the "Dowager Queen", just as Queen Mary and Queen Elizabeth were. However, she would most likely be known as "Queen xxx" in general usage.

Queen Mary was still "Queen Mary" after George V died, and Queen Elizabeth was still Queen Elizabeth, although called "Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother" after the death of George VI.

Harry's wife would probably just be referred to as "The Queen".

Elspeth 03-21-2005 10:58 PM

If William predeceases his wife, whether he's succeeded by his brother or a son or daughter of his own, his wife will still be known as Queen, since that was her title when she was widowed. If a child of hers becomes king or queen, she'd be Queen Mother (whether she used the title or not - much as Queen Elizabeth did and Queen Mary didn't); if her husband was succeeded by another family member, she'd become Queen Dowager. I read somewhere that a Queen Mother has more rights than a Queen Dowager (a fact that was supposed to have pleased Queen Mary after George V's death), but it didn't go into details about what those rights were.

sara1981 03-22-2005 12:24 AM

dont let Camilla become Queen i cant believe she did! but i wanted William become King!

Sara Boyce

Warren 03-22-2005 01:25 AM

Precedence
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Elspeth
I read somewhere that a Queen Mother has more rights than a Queen Dowager (a fact that was supposed to have pleased Queen Mary after George V's death), but it didn't go into details about what those rights were.

I think it would just be in order of precedence.

If there were three Queens living, as for example, Queen Elizabeth II, Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother, and [Dowager] Queen Mary from February 1952 to March 1953, the order of precendence would be in that order.

Queen Mary would have been "Queen Mother" during the reigns of Edward VIII and George VI, before being "relegated" to Queen Dowager, aka Queen Mary, when Elizabeth II came to the Throne.
.

gaggleofcrazypeople 03-22-2005 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elspeth
If William predeceases his wife, whether he's succeeded by his brother or a son or daughter of his own, his wife will still be known as Queen, since that was her title when she was widowed. If a child of hers becomes king or queen, she'd be Queen Mother (whether she used the title or not - much as Queen Elizabeth did and Queen Mary didn't); if her husband was succeeded by another family member, she'd become Queen Dowager. I read somewhere that a Queen Mother has more rights than a Queen Dowager (a fact that was supposed to have pleased Queen Mary after George V's death), but it didn't go into details about what those rights were.

Why would they have different rights?

Elspeth 03-22-2005 08:06 PM

I have no idea why they would, but apparently it's something that Queen Mary discovered and was pleased that she had more rights as a Queen Mother than she would have had as just a Queen Dowager.

Ennyllorac 03-24-2005 05:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elspeth
I have no idea why they would, but apparently it's something that Queen Mary discovered and was pleased that she had more rights as a Queen Mother than she would have had as just a Queen Dowager.

Perhaps it is that as Queen Mother you are a blood relative of the current monarch, but as Queen Dowager you are not blood related to the monarch.

Iluvbertie 03-24-2005 06:25 PM

A Queen Mother is also a Queen Dowager. A Queen Mother is the mother of the monarch. A Queen Dowager is the wife of a deceased King. A Queen Mother must have been a Queen first and therefore the wife of a deceased King but a Queen Dowager is not necessarily the mother of the monarch.

The last time that Britain had a Queen Dowager who was not also a Queen Mother was when Queen Victoria became Queen and Queen Adelaide was still alive. Queen Adelaide was a Queen Dowager only but later Queens such as Alexandra, Mary and Elizabeth were both Queen Dowagers and Queen Mothers during the reigns of their child(ren).

Ennyllorac 03-24-2005 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrissy57
A Queen Mother is also a Queen Dowager. A Queen Mother is the mother of the monarch. A Queen Dowager is the wife of a deceased King. A Queen Mother must have been a Queen first and therefore the wife of a deceased King but a Queen Dowager is not necessarily the mother of the monarch.

The last time that Britain had a Queen Dowager who was not also a Queen Mother was when Queen Victoria became Queen and Queen Adelaide was still alive. Queen Adelaide was a Queen Dowager only but later Queens such as Alexandra, Mary and Elizabeth were both Queen Dowagers and Queen Mothers during the reigns of their child(ren).

Thank you for clearing that up!

gaggleofcrazypeople 03-24-2005 10:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrissy57
A Queen Mother is also a Queen Dowager. A Queen Mother is the mother of the monarch. A Queen Dowager is the wife of a deceased King. A Queen Mother must have been a Queen first and therefore the wife of a deceased King but a Queen Dowager is not necessarily the mother of the monarch.

The last time that Britain had a Queen Dowager who was not also a Queen Mother was when Queen Victoria became Queen and Queen Adelaide was still alive. Queen Adelaide was a Queen Dowager only but later Queens such as Alexandra, Mary and Elizabeth were both Queen Dowagers and Queen Mothers during the reigns of their child(ren).

That took a moment to comprehend, but that really does make sense.

Elspeth 03-24-2005 11:18 PM

It still doesn't explain what extra rights a queen mother has that a queen dowager doesn't have, though. As Warren said, it probably has something to do with precedence, but there may be more to it.

If Charles becomes king and Camilla outlives him, we may see what happens to queen dowagers in reality rather than just talking hypothetically.

wymanda 03-25-2005 01:00 AM

I always understood that the title "Queen Mother" was created for Queen Elizabeth as she did not wish to be known as Queen Dowager and to avoid confusion with her Daughter Queen Elizabeth II. Prior to that Queen Mary & Queen Alexandra were known only by their names rather than by a title.

Iluvbertie 03-25-2005 01:31 AM

You are correct that the title Queen Mother was created for the late Queen Mum but the other ladies were also Queen Mothers as well as Queen Dowagers while Queen Adelaide wasn't.

I don't really think there is that much difference in status relating to a queen mother against a Queen Dowager except that a queen mother would have certain access rights to their child and status coming from that relationship that may not exist for a Queen Dowager.

When I get some time, and that won't be any time soon unfortunately, I will research the activities of Queen Adelaide and compare them with the later Queen's after the deaths of their husbands and kings.

gaggleofcrazypeople 03-26-2005 10:15 PM

Well, most Queen mothers don't have much say, do they?

Etienne,DuchessofBurgundy 04-07-2005 10:10 AM

Around the time of the beginning of Queen Elizabeth's reign after her father-King George VI- died, Queen Mary was still alive, Mary was known as "Queen Dowager" and since the elder Queen Elizabeth couldn't have that title and she didn't want people to be confused with the present Queen and she was QE's mother, she called herself the "Queen Mother" or "Queen Mum" for short and it stuck thereafter..... :)

Reina 04-07-2005 11:07 AM

hmmm...i wonder what camilla will be called if charles dies while he is king and leaves her as a widow. I am sure it will be dowager queen. surely it won't be queen mum...no way

sara1981 04-07-2005 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reina
hmmm...i wonder what camilla will be called if charles dies while he is king and leaves her as a widow. I am sure it will be dowager queen. surely it won't be queen mum...no way

i agree it!

but let William become King but Camilla will known as Princess of Consort because Camilla and Charles is divorcees!

Sara Boyce

Mandy 04-07-2005 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reina
hmmm...i wonder what camilla will be called if charles dies while he is king and leaves her as a widow. I am sure it will be dowager queen. surely it won't be queen mum...no way

Camilla would have to be the mother of the future monarch in order to be called Queen Mum.

sara1981 04-07-2005 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mandy
Camilla would have to be the mother of the future monarch in order to be called Queen Mum.

oh my gosh!

Sara Boyce


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