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lucien 01-04-2019 07:10 AM

Sotheby's Auction of Drawings & Silver from the Collection of the Dutch RF: Feb 2019
 
Sotheby's London will auction off drawings and silver,a.o. from the collections of the Dutch RF.

The top piece is a drawing by P.P.Rubens.

The RF is cleaning up their atticks,there have been other auctions,anonymous,here in The Netherlands too recently.

JR76 01-04-2019 07:29 AM

All those palaces must be pretty stuffed if they can't find a spot for a Rubens.
Why are they having a clear out? Cash is easier to divvy up between heirs?

Marengo 01-04-2019 08:45 AM

The website of Sotheby's says that the Rubens drawing ïs the: "property of a princess". It is expected to fetch between 2.5 and 3.5 million dollars. It belonged to the collection of King Willem II. Note that after his death most of his art collection was sold to the Russian emperor. His heirs feared that they would be unable to pay the king's enormous debts.

There are 12 other drawings of old masters to be sold and several lots with porcelein, glassware and silverware. These are expected to fetch another 2.5-3.5 million dollars. Among these lots is glassware that was a gift to Juliana and Bernhard on the occasion of their wedding.

The NRC claims that the Rubens drawing used to grace the walls of the NYC appartment of Princess Christina.

https://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2019/01/03...eilen-a3127887

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Under Dutch law each child receives the same share of assets from a deceased parent. To keep the most important items together Queen Juliana started several funds. The foundation of the royal art collection supposedly has the most important items in it. The drawings that are auctioned off were perhaps not added to this foundation.

Perhaps the late Queen interpreted the foundation in a way that only items relevant for the royal family were added: namely paintings of ancestors and such. A Rubens drawing has little to no connection to the house of Orange, even though it may be of superior art historic value than other pieces that were added to the foundation.

The items that are sold of may be owned by Princess Christina or perhaps they were not divided between the four sisters. The article is not clear about that.

I am surprised that a Rubens drawing can still leave Europe, I thought there were some laws in place to make sure our patrimony does not leave the continent. Let's hope at the very least that it will be acquired by a museum and not by some billionaire.

The RVD refused to comment.

An Ard Ri 01-04-2019 09:10 AM

It will be worth watching to see whats sold in New York on January 30th and also would there be any objection to the sale of a Rubens by the royal house?

maria-olivia 01-04-2019 10:01 AM

The Drawings are from Rubens itself, his Paintings are from himself and his Atelier.

Marengo 01-04-2019 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by An Ard Ri (Post 2185820)
It will be worth watching to see whats sold in New York on January 30th and also would there be any objection to the sale of a Rubens by the royal house?

In 2016 some concerns were raised when the family sold a painting by Raden Saleh to a museum in Singapore and 1200 maps from the 17th and 18th century to John Fentener van Vlissingen.

The concerns were multiple: why were the works not offered to Dutch musea? Can it be considered national heritage? Who is the owner of the pieces? King Willem II paid for much of his collection from state money. And why does the royal archive decide what items are considered private property of the family and which ones belong to the state? Etc. Many people were/are -falsely- under the impression that all items that belong to the royal family art part of a royal collection and can not be sold.

Note that the maps were registered under the Royal Collections. But according to the RVD they belonged to the part of the collection that was considered private. The family also sold a table and chairs of the Indian Hall in Noordeinde palace. So the foundation must protect a more limited amount of items than was previously assumed.

The border between state and private property can be unclear. i read somewhere (Jutta Chorus biography of Beatrix IIRC) that Queen Beatrix removed some items from Soestdijk that she considered private. The secretary of culture at the time thought that they belonged to the state and sent a truck to Huis ten Bosch to collect the items. Something simular happened in Belgium when the then CP Philippe wanted some furniture from the palace on the Meir in Antwerp for his private apartments in Laeken while the Flemish government said the furniture belonged to the state & the items were duly returned.

It is a pity that the Rubens drawing -as maria-olivia says: by the master himself and not by his atelier - was never added to the art foundation of the RF. Noordeinde and Dam palace -which both resemble High end hotels instead of palaces- have plenty of empty walls. But considering it is private property they have all the right in the world to do with them as they see fit. If f.e. they belong to Pss Christina, it makes no difference if she sells them now or if her descendants will do so in x decades, as we saw in Denmark recently.

The general public of course has mostly other concerns than art or the royal family.

Duc_et_Pair 01-04-2019 11:22 AM

Princess Christina and her former husband Mr Jorge Pérez Guillermo have been very active in buying and selling artworks and antique. Their newly build villa, De Eikenhorst, on the royal estate De Horsten (now owned by the King) was stuffed from floor to roof with paintings and artworks.

Princess Christina lives abroad. Her children live abroad. They have virtually no any royal business to do (in contrary to their Bourbon-Parma cousins for an example) and that part of the family has been active in selling and investing, for an example with trusts on the Channel Islands.

Picture: salon in De Eikenhorst when Princess Christina lived there: http://www.paleizen.nl/Paleizenbesta...0Christina.jpg

Picture: salon in De Eikenhorst now: https://images1.persgroep.net/rcs/7S...0b&quality=0.8

The two pictures also show total different tastes in art and understandably that private persons can buy art, but of course also sell art.

Marengo 01-04-2019 12:03 PM

During/after the divorce the princess auctioned the collection that she and Jorge Guillermo built. I believe one painting (with a peeled orange IIRC) was bought by Palace Het Loo.

The items that are offered today supposedly come from the inheritance of Queen Juliana. It is possible that they belong to Pss Chrstina but it is not certain.

Note that Queen Juliana was no stranger to selling possessions either. You will be familiar with the story that a shocked courtier reported some of Juliana's jewels stolen after seeing them offered in a shop window in London, only to discover that it was the Queen herself who sold them.

It is fortunate that the most important paintings of the family were donated by King Willem I to the state. They form(ed) the base of the collection of our national museum. It was the second time he saved these treasure for the nation. The first time was after the battle of Waterloo when he sent the army to the Louvre to confiquate them after the French looted them. The Italians were unable to do so.

Duc_et_Pair 01-04-2019 12:37 PM

The foundations set up by Queen Juliana are stuffed with items considered "subservient to a proper execution of the royal dignity".

Of course, one can argue: is a drawing of Rubens or 18th C silverware not subservient to the royal function? But when one visits exhibitions in Amsterdam or Apeldoorn and sees the artworks but also all the gold-, silver-, crystal- and porcelain ware during State Banquets, when one sees the unbelievable jewels of Queen Máxima and when we know that the Royal House Archives in The Hague have extra underground floors in depôt added, and that the conservator of Het Loo says "only a fraction" from the collection of the House is in exhibition, then we may assume all four the Princesses have received valuable items but that the bulk, with the most important items, have been placed in these foundations, to serve King Willem-Alexander or the future Queen Catharina-Amalia.

lucien 01-04-2019 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marengo (Post 2185874)
During/after the divorce the princess auctioned the collection that she and Jorge Guillermo built. I believe one painting (with a peeled orange IIRC) was bought by Palace Het Loo.

The items that are offered today supposedly come from the inheritance of Queen Juliana. It is possible that they belong to Pss Chrstina but it is not certain.

Note that Queen Juliana was no stranger to selling possessions either. You will be familiar with the story that a shocked courtier reported some of Juliana's jewels stolen after seeing them offered in a shop window in London, only to discover that it was the Queen herself who sold them.

It is fortunate that the most important paintings of the family were donated by King Willem I to the state. They form(ed) the base of the collection of our national museum. It was the second time he saved these treasure for the nation. The first time was after the battle of Waterloo when he sent the armybto the Louvre to confiquate them after the French looted them. The Italians were unable to do so.


All this material to be auctioned is from the late Princess Juliana's youngest daughter.She has no use for them nor have her children as they all have a shipload,or in any case more then enough of this sort of items.All is legal without any trouble/problem by anyone else of the Family nor Dutch Law.It's all simular to the sale last month of items of the estate of the late Danish Princess Elisabeth by her offspring.

We,or some,might think the world of it all,but to the sellers it's all the same,with the exception of a Rubens ofcourse.The Dutch Museum Fund will try to keep the Rubens within our borders,I hope they succeed.

Duc_et_Pair 01-04-2019 05:02 PM

I understood none of the offered items is in the database with protected patrimonium under the Erfgoedwet 2016 (Heritage Act 2016) which would mean it needs to be offered to Dutch museums or the State, to protect it from leaving the country.

The Rubens drawing is of importance but not that important that there is a ban to bring it to auction.

Mbruno 01-04-2019 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair (Post 2185880)
The foundations set up by Queen Juliana are stuffed with items considered "subservient to a proper execution of the royal dignity".

Of course, one can argue: is a drawing of Rubens or 18th C silverware not subservient to the royal function? But when one visits exhibitions in Amsterdam or Apeldoorn and sees the artworks but also all the gold-, silver-, crystal- and porcelain ware during State Banquets, when one sees the unbelievable jewels of Queen Máxima and when we know that the Royal House Archives in The Hague have extra underground floors in depôt added, and that the conservator of Het Loo says "only a fraction" from the collection of the House is in exhibition, then we may assume all four the Princesses have received valuable items but that the bulk, with the most important items, have been placed in these foundations, to serve King Willem-Alexander or the future Queen Catharina-Amalia.




I don't think the purpose of the art collection is "to serve King Willem-Alexander or the future Queen Catharina-Amalia". Instead, to use the same terminology that is used in the UK to refer to the Royal Collection and the Occupied Palaces Estate, they are "held in trust by the sovereign for the nation".

Duc_et_Pair 01-05-2019 04:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mbruno (Post 2185961)
I don't think the purpose of the art collection is "to serve King Willem-Alexander or the future Queen Catharina-Amalia". Instead, to use the same terminology that is used in the UK to refer to the Royal Collection and the Occupied Palaces Estate, they are "held in trust by the sovereign for the nation".

No. The nation has nothing to do with it. The foundations were set up by Queen Juliana, essentially her inheritance went to a fifth, non-natural legal entity, aside her four daughters. It has nothing to do with the nation. The descriptions of the royal foundations are clear:

The Foundation Archives of the House Orange-Nassau 1968:
"To collect and to manage the archivalia of the House Orange-Nassau, the House Nassau, or a House related to these"
Manager of the Foundation: His Majesty The King
This foundation is the base of the House Archives and it's building in the park of Noordeinde Palace.

The Foundation Regalia of the House Orange-Nassau 1963
The Foundation Crown Properties of the House Orange-Nassau 1968
Both Foundations merged into the Foundation Crown Properties of the House Orange-Nassau 2008:
"To ensure that descendants of Her Majesty Queen Wilhelmina, princess of Orange-Nassau, have properties at their disposal, needed for the execution of the royal dignity"
Manager of the Foundation: His Majesty The King
This foundation is the base of the countless properties in the palaces which are in use. From carriages to jewels. From artworks to goldware.

Foundation Historic Collections of the House Orange-Nassau 1972
"To collect and to manage works of art and objects related to the House Orange-Nassau or the House Nassau which are no longer in daily use"
Manager of the Foundation: Her Majesty Queen Máxima
This foundation is the base of the countless objects loaned to exhibitions, loans to Het Loo Palace, loans to museums in- and outside the Netherlands, loans to private houses of members of the royal family.

Sotheby's stated that the offered items (drawings, china, glassware by Lalique, some 18th C silverware) are "property of a Dutch princess". The drawing of Peter Paul Rubens was acquired by King Willem II, the Lalique glassware a gigt to Queen Juliana, so we know it is from the inheritance of Queen Juliana to one of her daughters. It seems the drawing was seen in the New York appartment of Princess Christina, so possibly she is the seller.

maria-olivia 01-05-2019 08:20 AM

Yesterday the 4th Dutch News.nl wrote :
Anonymous Dutch Royal put up Rubens drawing for Auction. Owner of private collections are free to auction off the item.
(Prince Bernard did it before for WWF.)
Certainly the Dutch Royal family knew it.
Items from royal Provenance are actually " bingo" for the great selling Houses. !25 % )
A lot a minor royals are in money need , it started last year with the Bourbon and the Rosenborg.

Duc_et_Pair 01-05-2019 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maria-olivia (Post 2186032)
Yesterday the 4th Dutch News.nl wrote :
Anonymous Dutch Royal put up Rubens drawing for Auction. Owner of private collections are free to auction off the item.
(Prince Bernard did it before for WWF.)
Certainly the Dutch Royal family knew it.
Items from royal Provenance are actually " bingo" for the great selling Houses. !25 % )
A lot a minor royals are in money need , it started last year with the Bourbon and the Rosenborg.

Princess Christina is absolutely not in need: Queen Juliana has set up a special foundation to finance her three youngest daughters: Stichting Bewind 1963. Followed by another foundation: the Foundation Functional Costs House of Orange-Nassau 1968. The Princesses Irene, Margriet and Christina have never had a normal paid job or something. They have married pauvre husbands. But they lead fine lifestyles. That money is provided by these foundations, plus their inheritances (after 2004), plus the loans of properties from royal foundations to use in their private houses.

These three princesses are all in their seventies and have children and grandchildren. The real fragmentation will start there, with the four Bourbon-Parmas, the four Van Vollenhovens and the three Guillermos. And all of them will have to pay inheritance taxes. And maybe the three Guillermos or Christina's advisers said: sell the Lalique, sell the Rubens, sell that porcelain, invest it in assets. It will save them problems with distribution and taxes.

An Ard Ri 01-05-2019 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair (Post 2185858)
Princess Christina and her former husband Mr Jorge Pérez Guillermo have been very active in buying and selling artworks and antique. Their newly build villa, De Eikenhorst, on the royal estate De Horsten (now owned by the King) was stuffed from floor to roof with paintings and artworks.

Princess Christina lives abroad. Her children live abroad. They have virtually no any royal business to do (in contrary to their Bourbon-Parma cousins for an example) and that part of the family has been active in selling and investing, for an example with trusts on the Channel Islands.

Picture: salon in De Eikenhorst when Princess Christina lived there: http://www.paleizen.nl/Paleizenbesta...0Christina.jpg

Picture: salon in De Eikenhorst now: https://images1.persgroep.net/rcs/7S...0b&quality=0.8

The two pictures also show total different tastes in art and understandably that private persons can buy art, but of course also sell art.

Hard to believe its the same room ,though the red colour is a bit over powering I prefer the style of the room during Princess Christina's tenure.

Duc_et_Pair 01-05-2019 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by An Ard Ri (Post 2186036)
Hard to believe its the same room ,though the red colour is a bit over powering I prefer the style of the room during Princess Christina's tenure.

As they throw nothing away, I believe the green sofa in the salon of Princess Christina is the same as what is now in the library of De Eikenhorst:

Christina:
http://www.paleizen.nl/Paleizenbesta...0Christina.jpg

Willem-Alexander:
https://images3.persgroep.net/rcs/Qd...79&quality=0.8

For an example, the King has temporary office spaces in the park of De Eikenhorst (containers). His choice? Arch-ugly fauteuils once used by his father Prince Claus at Drakensteyn, at least 50 years old, including plaid.... :
https://nos.nl/data/image/2017/10/13/424140/xxl.jpg

maria-olivia 01-05-2019 09:24 AM

The Auction is not cancelled and I hope Rubens work will come back to Europe.

tommy100 01-05-2019 12:31 PM

Well at least they aren't buying those awful sofas and chairs.

tommy100 01-05-2019 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair (Post 2186035)
Princess Christina is absolutely not in need: Queen Juliana has set up a special foundation to finance her three youngest daughters: Stichting Bewind 1963. Followed by another foundation: the Foundation Functional Costs House of Orange-Nassau 1968. The Princesses Irene, Margriet and Christina have never had a normal paid job or something. They have married pauvre husbands. But they lead fine lifestyles. That money is provided by these foundations, plus their inheritances (after 2004), plus the loans of properties from royal foundations to use in their private houses.

These three princesses are all in their seventies and have children and grandchildren. The real fragmentation will start there, with the four Bourbon-Parmas, the four Van Vollenhovens and the three Guillermos. And all of them will have to pay inheritance taxes. And maybe the three Guillermos or Christina's advisers said: sell the Lalique, sell the Rubens, sell that porcelain, invest it in assets. It will save them problems with distribution and taxes.

Absolutely, for the children and grandchildren why have a Reuben on the wall instead of cash in the bank?


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