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HollyDolly 01-04-2016 11:54 AM

Descendance from Charlemagne
 
Well I'm curious how many children Charlemagne really had and the names of these children.I might have to go to Wikipedia or Google to try to search for their names out of curiosity. As you state the royal blood would be pretty well diluted by now whether from Charlemagne or someone else.My late father's family in Nuremberg has the family history book and found out by accident when searching for information that there is also a book on his family in the state archives in Hamburg. Whether we have any connection to Charlemange don't know.Certainly wouldn't make me Queen of France even if we were kin. Same goes if by some chance it turned out we we related in some ways to the Wittelsbach who ruled Bavaria or related to the Ducal family of Baden or even the Hapsburgs. Would be interesting ,but absolutely meaningless.

Mbruno 01-04-2016 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HollyDolly (Post 1853128)
Well I'm curious how many children Charlemagne really had and the names of these children.I might have to go to Wikipedia or Google to try to search for their names out of curiosity. As you state the royal blood would be pretty well diluted by now whether from Charlemagne or someone else..


There are royals who can genuinely claim though that they descend from Charlemagne. For example, King Felipe Vi of Spain.

Countessmeout 01-04-2016 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mbruno (Post 1853155)
There are royals who can genuinely claim though that they descend from Charlemagne. For example, King Felipe Vi of Spain.

Any modern royal who is descended from Queen Victoria, can claim descent from Charlemagne. Victoria is a direct descendent of William the conqueror who himself was a nine time great grandson of Charlemagne through his son Pepin.

-Elizabeth: not only through Victoria, she is descended through her grandmother Mary. The Techs are descended from Henry II's daughter Matilda where the Windsors are of course from his son John.
-Felipe- is descended through Victoria's daughter Beatrice
-Harald- is descended of course from Edward VII's daughter Maude
-Margrethe and Carl Gustaf are descended through Arthur of Connaught (his daughter Margrat was a grandmother to them both)
-the Greek royals are descended from Victoria's eldest daughter, making Felipe a two time descendent of Victoria through both his parents

The Dutch royals are also descended from Charlemagne, along the same family line as the Techs, through Henry II's daughter Matilda. They diverge some generations later.

Ish 01-04-2016 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mbruno (Post 1853155)
There are royals who can genuinely claim though that they descend from Charlemagne. For example, King Felipe Vi of Spain.


As Charlemagne was an ancestor of Johan Willem Friso, who (with his wife) is the most recent common ancestor of every currently ruling European monarch, then every currently ruling European monarch can trace their ancestry to Charlemagne.

One line from Charlemagne to JWF is:
1. Charlemagne
2. Pepin, King of Italy
3. Bernard, King of Italy
4. Herbert I, Count of Vermandois
5. Herbert II, Count of Vermandois
6. Robert de Vermandois, Count of Meaux
7. Adele of Meaux
8. Ermengarde of Anjou
9. Judith of Brittany
10. Robert II, Duke of Brittany
11. William the Conqueror
12. Henry I of Normandy
13. Matilda of England
14. Henry II of England
15. Matilda of England
16. William Longsword
17. Otto the Child
18. Ludwig the Junker
19. Herman the Learned
20. Louis the Peaceful
21. Henry the Rich
22. Elisabeth von Hessen
23. William the Rich
24. Johann VI Von Nassau-Dillenburg
25. Ernst Casimir van Nassau-Dietz
26. Willem Frederik van Nassau-Dietz
27. Hendrix Casimir van Nassau-Dietz
28. Johan Willem Friso

Hallsteinn 01-04-2016 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mbruno (Post 1853155)
There are royals who can genuinely claim though that they descend from Charlemagne. For example, King Felipe Vi of Spain.

All of them can, but not only royals. Most people of fully or partially noble/aristocratic descent can claim it, including myself.

Mbruno 01-04-2016 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ish (Post 1853177)
As Charlemagne was an ancestor of Johan Willem Friso, who (with his wife) is the most recent common ancestor of every currently ruling European monarch, then every currently ruling European monarch can trace their ancestry to Charlemagne.

One line from Charlemagne to JWF is:
1. Charlemagne
2. Pepin, King of Italy
3. Bernard, King of Italy
4. Herbert I, Count of Vermandois
5. Herbert II, Count of Vermandois
6. Robert de Vermandois, Count of Meaux
7. Adele of Meaux
8. Ermengarde of Anjou
9. Judith of Brittany
10. Robert II, Duke of Brittany
11. William the Conqueror
12. Henry I of Normandy
13. Matilda of England
14. Henry II of England
15. Matilda of England
16. William Longsword
17. Otto the Child
18. Ludwig the Junker
19. Herman the Learned
20. Louis the Peaceful
21. Henry the Rich
22. Elisabeth von Hessen
23. William the Rich
24. Johann VI Von Nassau-Dillenburg
25. Ernst Casimir van Nassau-Dietz
26. Willem Frederik van Nassau-Dietz
27. Hendrix Casimir van Nassau-Dietz
28. Johan Willem Friso

Good point, but I was actually thinking of a different line for the King of Spain. He is a direct descendant of Hugh Capet, who in turn descends from Charlemagne.

Ish 01-04-2016 05:14 PM

That's another one too. There's sooo many different lines - I just went for the one that grabbed everyone in one go.

I would assume that every non-reigning European royal house could also trace their ancestry to Charlemagne fairly easily. The fact is that if they're a descendant of Queen Victoria, Christian IX, or Johan William Friso they'll be descended from Charlemagne, and most of the European royal houses descend from at least one of those 3.

SLV 01-04-2016 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ish (Post 1853177)
As Charlemagne was an ancestor of Johan Willem Friso, who (with his wife) is the most recent common ancestor of every currently ruling European monarch, then every currently ruling European monarch can trace their ancestry to Charlemagne.

One line from Charlemagne to JWF is:
1. Charlemagne
2. Pepin, King of Italy
3. Bernard, King of Italy
4. Herbert I, Count of Vermandois
5. Herbert II, Count of Vermandois
6. Robert de Vermandois, Count of Meaux
7. Adele of Meaux
8. Ermengarde of Anjou
9. Judith of Brittany
10. Robert II, Duke of Brittany
11. William the Conqueror
12. Henry I of Normandy
13. Matilda of England
14. Henry II of England
15. Matilda of England
16. William Longsword
17. Otto the Child
18. Ludwig the Junker
19. Herman the Learned
20. Louis the Peaceful
21. Henry the Rich
22. Elisabeth von Hessen
23. William the Rich
24. Johann VI Von Nassau-Dillenburg
25. Ernst Casimir van Nassau-Dietz
26. Willem Frederik van Nassau-Dietz
27. Hendrix Casimir van Nassau-Dietz
28. Johan Willem Friso

Oh, that's a nice one Ish! I just may add that to my JWF-diagram.

Marc23 01-04-2016 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ish (Post 1853216)
I would assume that every non-reigning European royal house could also trace their ancestry to Charlemagne fairly easily.

Except Montenegro...

Ana Von Cleves 01-04-2016 08:49 PM

Let's do the math!!!!!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ish (Post 1853177)
As Charlemagne was an ancestor of Johan Willem Friso, who (with his wife) is the most recent common ancestor of every currently ruling European monarch, then every currently ruling European monarch can trace their ancestry to Charlemagne.

One line from Charlemagne to JWF is:
1. Charlemagne
2. Pepin, King of Italy
3. Bernard, King of Italy
4. Herbert I, Count of Vermandois
5. Herbert II, Count of Vermandois
6. Robert de Vermandois, Count of Meaux
7. Adele of Meaux
8. Ermengarde of Anjou
9. Judith of Brittany
10. Robert II, Duke of Brittany
11. William the Conqueror
12. Henry I of Normandy
13. Matilda of England
14. Henry II of England
15. Matilda of England
16. William Longsword
17. Otto the Child
18. Ludwig the Junker
19. Herman the Learned
20. Louis the Peaceful
21. Henry the Rich
22. Elisabeth von Hessen
23. William the Rich
24. Johann VI Von Nassau-Dillenburg
25. Ernst Casimir van Nassau-Dietz
26. Willem Frederik van Nassau-Dietz
27. Hendrix Casimir van Nassau-Dietz
28. Johan Willem Friso

How many others would be your ancestor in the 28th generation besides Charlemagne and Hildegarde.
1. 1 Prince George
2. 2 Prince William
3. 4 Prince Charles
4. 8 Prince Philip
5. 16 Prince Andrew
6. 32 King George I of Greece
7. 64 King Christian IX of Denmark
8. 128 etc (I could list it all the way out to Charlemagne, but none of us have all night!!)
9. 256
10. 512
11. 1024
12. 2048
13. 4096
14. 8192
15. 16384
16. 32768
17. 65536
18. 131072
19. 262144
20. 524288
21. 1,048,576
22. 2,097,152
23. 4,194,304
24. 8,388,608
25. 16,777,216
26. 33,554,432
27. 67,108,864
28. 134,217,728
generation 40 or 41 = Charlemagne & Hildagarde The number of progenitors in this generation is in the billions.
Since the whole of the world does not claim that many, you are arguably a descendant of anyone who was alive at that time who blood line continues today.
Thus the argument that anyone with European ancestery can rightly claim kinship to anyone they please.
I state these convoluted thoughts for a couple of reasons.
I was curious as to how far I could trace Prince George's ancestory using only Wikipedia. So far, I have him descending for Charlemagne at least 10 times, Alfred the Great at least 5, Peter the Great once, all of the Scottish kings through the Spencers, but the most surprising to me was Harold II Godwinson. I didn't think he had any traceable descendants, but apparently two of his children fled to Denmark and from there married into the Kiev aristoracy. This line comes through Prince Philip's Russian Grandmother. The most interesting people have been in Philip's lines so far. I have only scratched the surface so far.
I knew there was a lot of intermarriage, but my word, I am surprised they haven't all sprouted two heads by now. The further back you go, the more often the same people appear.
I also use these generational ancestral numbers to show, that if you go far enough back, no one is pure anything. If we could trace every ancestor, we will find every race, creed, religion, etc.

Happy New Year All!!!!

Ana

PS Did I mention that Prince George is also a descendant of a sister of Ana Von Cleves?????

Marc23 01-05-2016 04:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ana Von Cleves (Post 1853244)
PS Did I mention that Prince George is also a descendant of a sister of Ana Von Cleves?????

Well,that's not strange :)

Sybille married a Wettin,Elector of Saxony and was a male-line great-great-grandmother of the first Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Saalfeld...

And agnatically,Queen Elizabeth II is a member of the Wettin dynasty descended from the Saxe-Coburg-Saalfeld line...

Ish 01-05-2016 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marc23 (Post 1853222)
Except Montenegro...

Touche. I mean, yes the family can likely trace their ancestry back to Charlemagne as well (statistically speaking, everyone of European descent is descended from him), but it would be somewhat harder to trace it.

There are a few of those odd-ball European royal families that didn't really marry into other families or emerged in the 19th/20th centuries, whose ancestry is harder to trace, but the bulk of them should fairly easily be traced back to Charlemagne.

Marc23 01-05-2016 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ish (Post 1853360)
Touche. I mean, yes the family can likely trace their ancestry back to Charlemagne as well (statistically speaking, everyone of European descent is descended from him), but it would be somewhat harder to trace it.

There are a few of those odd-ball European royal families that didn't really marry into other families or emerged in the 19th/20th centuries, whose ancestry is harder to trace, but the bulk of them should fairly easily be traced back to Charlemagne.

If only Crown Prince Danilo of Montenegro had children,his issue would also be descendants of the Charlemagne as his wife was Duchess Auguste Charlotte von Mecklenburg-Strelitz,granddaughter of Princess Augusta of Great Britain,but...

Ish 01-05-2016 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SLV (Post 1853221)
Oh, that's a nice one Ish! I just may add that to my JWF-diagram.


I agree!

I don't have any projects going on right now and suddenly find myself tempted to try tracing some of Charlemagne's royal descendants...

Ish 01-05-2016 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ana Von Cleves (Post 1853244)
How many others would be your ancestor in the 28th generation besides Charlemagne and Hildegarde.
1. 1 Prince George
2. 2 Prince William
3. 4 Prince Charles
4. 8 Prince Philip
5. 16 Prince Andrew
6. 32 King George I of Greece
7. 64 King Christian IX of Denmark
8. 128 etc (I could list it all the way out to Charlemagne, but none of us have all night!!)
9. 256
10. 512
11. 1024
12. 2048
13. 4096
14. 8192
15. 16384
16. 32768
17. 65536
18. 131072
19. 262144
20. 524288
21. 1,048,576
22. 2,097,152
23. 4,194,304
24. 8,388,608
25. 16,777,216
26. 33,554,432
27. 67,108,864
28. 134,217,728
generation 40 or 41 = Charlemagne & Hildagarde The number of progenitors in this generation is in the billions.
Since the whole of the world does not claim that many, you are arguably a descendant of anyone who was alive at that time who blood line continues today.
Thus the argument that anyone with European ancestery can rightly claim kinship to anyone they please.
I state these convoluted thoughts for a couple of reasons.
I was curious as to how far I could trace Prince George's ancestory using only Wikipedia. So far, I have him descending for Charlemagne at least 10 times, Alfred the Great at least 5, Peter the Great once, all of the Scottish kings through the Spencers, but the most surprising to me was Harold II Godwinson. I didn't think he had any traceable descendants, but apparently two of his children fled to Denmark and from there married into the Kiev aristoracy. This line comes through Prince Philip's Russian Grandmother. The most interesting people have been in Philip's lines so far. I have only scratched the surface so far.
I knew there was a lot of intermarriage, but my word, I am surprised they haven't all sprouted two heads by now. The further back you go, the more often the same people appear.
I also use these generational ancestral numbers to show, that if you go far enough back, no one is pure anything. If we could trace every ancestor, we will find every race, creed, religion, etc.

Happy New Year All!!!!

Ana

PS Did I mention that Prince George is also a descendant of a sister of Ana Von Cleves?????


A few years ago I did a similar project (primarily utilizing thepeerage.com and Wikipedia, but I grabbed a couple extra sources to find Kate's (alleged) royal lines).

After a point, most of the DoE's ancestors are also the Queen's - they're closely related through two lines (Victoria/Albert and Christian IX/Louise), and all but 2 of his great-grandparents are descendants of Sophia of the Palatinate.

If you're interested, I can PM you the data regarding which monarchs George is descended from.

Ana Von Cleves 01-05-2016 08:26 PM

Thanks!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ish (Post 1853420)
A few years ago I did a similar project (primarily utilizing thepeerage.com and Wikipedia, but I grabbed a couple extra sources to find Kate's (alleged) royal lines).

After a point, most of the DoE's ancestors are also the Queen's - they're closely related through two lines (Victoria/Albert and Christian IX/Louise), and all but 2 of his great-grandparents are descendants of Sophia of the Palatinate.

If you're interested, I can PM you the data regarding which monarchs George is descended from.

My project is really just for fun, nothing scholarly at all.
I would like the list of Monarchs very much!!!

It is a lesson in institutional misogyny to see how much further back good information on the men goes than the women.


I would also like to see your information on Kate's antecedents. I can't get anywhere on her at all!!!

NotHRH 01-06-2016 03:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HollyDolly (Post 1853128)
Well I'm curious how many children Charlemagne really had and the names of these children.I might have to go to Wikipedia or Google to try to search for their names out of curiosity. As you state the royal blood would be pretty well diluted by now whether from Charlemagne or someone else.My late father's family in Nuremberg has the family history book and found out by accident when searching for information that there is also a book on his family in the state archives in Hamburg. Whether we have any connection to Charlemange don't know.Certainly wouldn't make me Queen of France even if we were kin. Same goes if by some chance it turned out we we related in some ways to the Wittelsbach who ruled Bavaria or related to the Ducal family of Baden or even the Hapsburgs. Would be interesting ,but absolutely meaningless.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlemagne 😔

HollyDolly 01-06-2016 08:10 AM

Thanks for the link I'll have to check it out.

mslewis 01-07-2016 03:39 PM

Goodness!! No wonder there has been so much crazy over the centuries in these royal families. Hopefully, no one will find anything about the Duchess of Cambridge being related to any royals. She's the last hope to clean up the British bloodlines.

Spheno 01-07-2016 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mslewis (Post 1853940)
Goodness!! No wonder there has been so much crazy over the centuries in these royal families. Hopefully, no one will find anything about the Duchess of Cambridge being related to any royals. She's the last hope to clean up the British bloodlines.

The Duchess of Cambridge is descended from King Edward IV through her mother, Carole Middleton, and from King Edward III through her father, Michael Middleton.


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