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Duc_et_Pair 09-17-2019 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theroyalfly (Post 2252543)
I disagree. 'Prince/sse de Habsbourg-Lorraine' is a legal title in Belgian nobility. Actually both sons of Archduke Carl Ludwig of Austria and Princess Yolande of Ligne namely Rudolf and Carl Christian were incorporated into Belgian nobility.

When Archduke Rudolf married the Belgian aristocrat Baroness Hélène de Villenfagne de Vogelsanck in 1976 and taking up residence in Belgium thereafter, it only took two years for King Baudouin to incorporate him and his children and male-line descendants werewith the hereditary title 'Prince/sse de Habsbourg-Lorraine' and the style of Serene Highness in the nobility of Belgium by royal letters patent on 29 May 1978.

In 1982, his younger brother Archduke Carl Christian married King Baudouin's niece Princess Marie Astrid of Luxembourg and a year after, him and his children and male-line descendants were also granted an entry to the Belgian nobility with a hereditary title 'Prince/sse de Habsbourg-Lorraine' and the style of Serene Highness.

Therefore, legally, both Rudolf and Carl Christian and their children and male-line descendants are HSH 'Prince/sse de Habsbourg-Lorraine' in Belgium.

Source: de Badts de Cugnac, Chantal. Coutant de Saisseval, Guy. Le Petit Gotha. Nouvelle Imprimerie Laballery, Paris 2002

I stand corrected, but isn't "de Habsbourg-Lorraine" a different branch? In a similar case, Anna-Astrid and Maximilian should be incorporated into Belgian Nobility with the titles prince (princesse) de Habsbourg-d'Este ?

Tatiana Maria 09-17-2019 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theroyalfly (Post 2252543)
I disagree. 'Prince/sse de Habsbourg-Lorraine' is a legal title in Belgian nobility. Actually both sons of Archduke Carl Ludwig of Austria and Princess Yolande of Ligne namely Rudolf and Carl Christian were incorporated into Belgian nobility.

When Archduke Rudolf married the Belgian aristocrat Baroness Hélène de Villenfagne de Vogelsanck in 1976 and taking up residence in Belgium thereafter, it only took two years for King Baudouin to incorporate him and his children and male-line descendants werewith the hereditary title 'Prince/sse de Habsbourg-Lorraine' and the style of Serene Highness in the nobility of Belgium by royal letters patent on 29 May 1978.

In 1982, his younger brother Archduke Carl Christian married King Baudouin's niece Princess Marie Astrid of Luxembourg and a year after, him and his children and male-line descendants were also granted an entry to the Belgian nobility with a hereditary title 'Prince/sse de Habsbourg-Lorraine' and the style of Serene Highness.

Therefore, legally, both Rudolf and Carl Christian and their children and male-line descendants are HSH 'Prince/sse de Habsbourg-Lorraine' in Belgium.

Source: de Badts de Cugnac, Chantal. Coutant de Saisseval, Guy. Le Petit Gotha. Nouvelle Imprimerie Laballery, Paris 2002

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair (Post 2253219)
I stand corrected, but isn't "de Habsbourg-Lorraine" a different branch? In a similar case, Anna-Astrid and Maximilian should be incorporated into Belgian Nobility with the titles prince (princesse) de Habsbourg-d'Este ?


By law, "Prince/sse" is the legal title and "de Habsbourg-Lorraine" is the legal surname of the branches descended from Prince and Princesse Carl Ludwig de Habsbourg-Lorraine (which indeed are from a different line of the family).

As shown in the rules of the national registration, the only titles of nobility that are registered with a designation are "King/Queen of the Belgians", "Prince/ss of Belgium" and "Duke/Duchess of Brabant". All other titles of nobility are legally in the form "Prince/ss", "Duke/Duchess" etc. without further designation, even if they are associated with a surname (which is a separate thing) such as "de Habsbourg-Lorraine".

https://www.ibz.rrn.fgov.be/fileadmi...e_noblesse.pdf

code titre : le titre de noblesse est codé par 2 chiffres conformément au tableau ci-dessous :
01
Prince
02
Princesse

03
Duc
04
Duchesse
05
Marquis
06
Marquise
07
Comte
08
Comtesse
09
Vicomte
10
Vicomtesse
11
Baron
12
Baronne
13
Chevalier
15
Ecuyer
17
Archiduc
18
Archiduchesse
19
Grand-Duc
20
Grande-Duchesse
21
Roi des Belges
22
Reine des Belges
23
Prince de Belgique
24
Princesse de Belgique
25
Duc de Brabant,
Prince de Belgique
26
Duchesse de Brabant,
Princesse de Belgique

The question is whether Habsburg-Este is the surname of the branch issuing from Prince Lorenz.

Looking once again at Princess Anna Astrid's birth registration (link), it lists her as
Son Altesse Impériale et Royale la Princesse Anna Astrid Marie Archiduchesse d'Autriche-Este (Habsbourg-Lorraine)

(Her Imperial and Royal Highness Princess Anna Astrid Marie Archduchess of Austria-Este (Habsburg-Lorraine))

As seen in the regulations above, "Princesse" and "Archiduchesse" are recognized as legal titles in the national registration, whereas "Archiduchesse d'Autriche-Este" is not. Under the legal rules, "d'Autriche-Este" is part of the surname: "d'Autriche-Este (Habsbourg-Lorraine)".

Duc_et_Pair 09-17-2019 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria (Post 2253343)
By law, "Prince/sse" is the legal title and "de Habsbourg-Lorraine" is the legal surname of the branches descended from Prince and Princesse Carl Ludwig de Habsbourg-Lorraine (which indeed are from a different line of the family).

As shown in the rules of the national registration, the only titles of nobility that are registered with a designation are "King/Queen of the Belgians", "Prince/ss of Belgium" and "Duke/Duchess of Brabant". All other titles of nobility are legally in the form "Prince/ss", "Duke/Duchess" etc. without further designation, even if they are associated with a surname (which is a separate thing) such as "de Habsbourg-Lorraine".

https://www.ibz.rrn.fgov.be/fileadmi...e_noblesse.pdf

code titre : le titre de noblesse est codé par 2 chiffres conformément au tableau ci-dessous :
01
Prince
02
Princesse

03
Duc
04
Duchesse
05
Marquis
06
Marquise
07
Comte
08
Comtesse
09
Vicomte
10
Vicomtesse
11
Baron
12
Baronne
13
Chevalier
15
Ecuyer
17
Archiduc
18
Archiduchesse
19
Grand-Duc
20
Grande-Duchesse
21
Roi des Belges
22
Reine des Belges
23
Prince de Belgique
24
Princesse de Belgique
25
Duc de Brabant,
Prince de Belgique
26
Duchesse de Brabant,
Princesse de Belgique

The question is whether Habsburg-Este is the surname of the branch issuing from Prince Lorenz.

Looking once again at Princess Anna Astrid's birth registration (link), it lists her as
Son Altesse Impériale et Royale la Princesse Anna Astrid Marie Archiduchesse d'Autriche-Este (Habsbourg-Lorraine)

(Her Imperial and Royal Highness Princess Anna Astrid Marie Archduchess of Austria-Este (Habsburg-Lorraine))

As seen in the regulations above, "Princesse" and "Archiduchesse" are recognized as legal titles in the national registration, whereas "Archiduchesse d'Autriche-Este" is not. Under the legal rules, "d'Autriche-Este" is part of the surname: "d'Autriche-Este (Habsbourg-Lorraine)".

Thanks for the extensive answer. But where does the combination "d'Autriche-Este (Habsbourg-Lorraine)" come from? Should that not be "d'Autriche-Este (Habsbourg-Este)"?


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