The Royal Forums

The Royal Forums (http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/)
-   King Felipe VI, Queen Letizia and Family (http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f11/)
-   -   Proclamation of Felipe VI; Suggestions & Musings (http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f11/proclamation-of-felipe-vi-suggestions-and-musings-37014.html)

An Ard Ri 06-05-2014 08:38 AM

Hopefully we'll get to see the rarely seen Spanish Regalia at the Proclamation Ceremony!

lula 06-05-2014 10:55 AM

I think we have explained it perfectly, and certain absurd comments about Letizia, are out of place.

Spain is a country where church and State are separated according to the Constitution. Thus the proclamation of a new Head of State does not have religious elements.

La Moncloa. Part I Fundamental Rights and Duties [Spain/Constitution]

Section 16

Freedom of ideology, religion and worship of individuals and communities is guaranteed, with no other restriction on their expression than may be necessary to maintain public order as protected by law.

No one may be compelled to make statements regarding his or her ideology, religion or beliefs.

No religion shall have a state character. The public authorities shall take into account the religious beliefs of Spanish society and shall consequently maintain appropriate cooperation relations with the Catholic Church and other confessions

Winnie 06-05-2014 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lula (Post 1672679)
I think we have explained it perfectly, and certain absurd comments about Letizia, are out of place.

Spain is a country where church and State are separated according to the Constitution. Thus the proclamation of a new Head of State does not have religious elements.

La Moncloa. Part I Fundamental Rights and Duties [Spain/Constitution]

Section 16

Freedom of ideology, religion and worship of individuals and communities is guaranteed, with no other restriction on their expression than may be necessary to maintain public order as protected by law.

No one may be compelled to make statements regarding his or her ideology, religion or beliefs.

No religion shall have a state character. The public authorities shall take into account the religious beliefs of Spanish society and shall consequently maintain appropriate cooperation relations with the Catholic Church and other confessions

I did not realize that Spain also coveted that strict division of church and state. So I guess if a Mass was incorporated into the ceremony, they would actually be breaking the law. But, I am sure that a prayer will be permitted. Even in America, which is now extremely separate, a prayer is given over new president.

NoorMeansLight 06-05-2014 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mbruno (Post 1672406)
I looked up on the Web and here is a list of some of the foreign guests who attended the enthronement mass for King Juan Carlos in 1975:

" Inside the Church took their places the King and Queen of the Hellenes, Prince Rainier and Princess Grace of Monaco, the President of France and the President of the Federal Republic of Germany, the President of Ireland, the Grand-Master of the Order of Malta, the Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh, the Prince of Liège, the Prince Sidi Mohamed of Morocco, the Prince Bertil of Sweden, the Hereditary Grand-Duke of Luxembourg, the Vice-President of the United States of America, Nelson Rockefeller among representatives of over 80 countries and around 700 guests. "


Apparently, it was a big event.

Oh dear, I had no idea! Wish we had some pictures of the event or a video! :flowers:

An Ard Ri 06-05-2014 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoorMeansLight (Post 1672710)
Oh dear, I had no idea! Wish we had some pictures of the event or a video! :flowers:

See this thread

http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums...5-a-37015.html

An Ard Ri 06-05-2014 12:23 PM

Several posts and replies have been removed can we please move on,we understand not everyone is happy that there won't be a Religious Ceremony to mark King Felipe's Accession but blaming Letizia's influence is just juvenile .

Duc_et_Pair 06-05-2014 03:01 PM

Indeed. I did not hear the same complaints in Amsterdam and Brussels where also no religious ceremonies were held. King Willem-Alexander, King Philippe and King Felipe are all monarchs of secular states without any priviliged Faith and are King for ALL their citizens, no matter which faith, or no faith at all, they probably have.

So there will be an abdication ceremony, followed by the investiture and proclamation. It will look very much alike the Belgian ceremony: also there were no foreign guests, also there were no grand ceremonial events and also there were no grand festivities.

Jacknch 06-05-2014 04:59 PM

Well, I thoroughly enjoyed the investiture of King Philippe and felt there was enough pomp and ceremony to it to keep me amazed for days afterwards. Obviously I am still on a high from King Willem-Alexander's inauguration - there was never a day like it!
For me, the abdication, proclamation and investiture of the new King of Spain will be just as amazing and an historical occasion, we simply don't see these things happen every day and I can't wait!

Duc_et_Pair 06-05-2014 05:19 PM

First of all, the King of Spain does not have the prefix "His Catholic Majesty". Secondly, the King is free, as any Spaniard, to attend Holy Mass or whatever religious service he wants. It is only not organized by the State as Spain is, like by far the most countries on the Continent, a strictly secular country.

Note that also after the Investitures of Grand Duke Henri (2000), King Willem-Alexander (2013) and King Philippe (2013) there were no religious services. The Prince of Monaco and his family did attend a Te Deum after his Investiture, which is on itself is an annual event linked to the Fête Nationale.

It is very well possible that Don Felipe goes to Holy Mass in the morning or the day before the Investiture to ask the Lord's blessing on his Reign. We simply do not know. There are fantastic chapels in the Spanish palaces which are at the disposal of the royal family.

Charlotte_Aster 06-05-2014 05:32 PM

:previous:Not to be pedantic, but:
According to the 1978 constitution The King may use the titles that were used by Alfonso XIII before his exile, which does include His Catholic Majesty. However, the royal decree that was published in 1978 stated that the King and the Queen were to be refered to as His/Her Majesty. And since the King does serve as the head of a secular state, being called Catholic Majesty wouldn't be in accordance with the rest of the state.

Monarchy of Spain - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

P.S. If this post is in the wrong thread, feel free to tranfer it to the Titles etc. thread. :flowers:

Ish 06-05-2014 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair (Post 1672875)
First of all, the King of Spain does not have the prefix "His Catholic Majesty". Secondly, the King is free, as any Spaniard, to attend Holy Mass or whatever religious service he wants. It is only not organized by the State as Spain is, like by far the most countries on the Continent, a strictly secular country.


The King of Spain holds the title Catholic Majesty, but by a 1987 decree he does not use it, instead preferring His Majesty. Catholic Majesty is one of the traditional titles of the King of Spain.

tamta 06-05-2014 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ANNIE_S (Post 1672626)
And I think is quite right to do so. As private citizens they can have their religious ceremonies like weddings and Holy Communions or attend masses whenever they want to, but an institutional event like this one shouldn´t be accompanied by a mass, IMO of course.

The proclamation of KJC was during Franco´s dictatorship yet. Spain was a whole different country in many aspects, this being one of them, and we musn´t forget it.

No, that's certainly not the case. If we view the matter from a purely egalitarian/equal rights perspective, then a monarchy is outdated and obsolete at the first place. Monarchy is an institution that by definition relies on modes of tradition -and religion is a vital pillar of that. In Spain Catholicism was always a foundational feature of national identity and a legitimizing basis of the monarchy. If they decide to dispose it, they might as well be next. It's just stupid.

tamta 06-05-2014 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ish (Post 1672883)
The King of Spain holds the title Catholic Majesty, but by a 1987 decree he does not use it, instead preferring His Majesty. Catholic Majesty is one of the traditional titles of the King of Spain.

Exactly. And the monarchy IS about tradition. Kings were always consecrated by some ecclesiastical ritual. If they can't do that now, at least attending a mass before the event would not hurt.

Mbruno 06-05-2014 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winnie (Post 1672704)
I did not realize that Spain also coveted that strict division of church and state. So I guess if a Mass was incorporated into the ceremony, they would actually be breaking the law. But, I am sure that a prayer will be permitted. Even in America, which is now extremely separate, a prayer is given over new president.

I don't think the separation is as strict as, let's say, in the French republic for example. Spain still has a "concordat" with the Vatican that gives several privileges to the Catholic Church and the constitution says:

"The public authorities shall take into account the religious beliefs of Spanish society and shall consequently maintain appropriate cooperation relations with the Catholic Church and other confessions"

Note that the text mentions "other confessions" but singles out the "Catholic Church" specifically.

I am pretty sure no legal scholar in Spain would consider illegal or unconstitutional to hold a "Te Deum" mass to mark the sovereign's accession. I guess the issue really is not separation of Church and State, but not having a lavish, solemn investiture when the country is goung through hard economic times.

At least, that's my two cents.

kbk 06-05-2014 07:29 PM

IMO, considering recent economic downfall and the monarchy's frayed position in Spain, any lavish or a even a little bit pompous ceremony would be inappropriate.

Although the state is secular, the King himself and his family (as well as most of the Spaniards!) are Catholic, so there would be no damage for the state's constitutional and democratic wellbeing because of a bishop's presence at the inauguration, doing "his" sacred things ;) as with all previous Kings... The entire Spain (as well as the whole Western civilization) is based on the Christian tradition, especially such old and traditional institution as a monarchy, a Bourbon monarchy.

The Royal Family probably will celebrate the big change-of guard with a Catholic service anyway, either privately or in an official or semi-official event.

Of course, the King is head of state as a whole and in a modern sense, but his position is also traditionally and still, in some parts, a religious one, sacred one. From what or whom his or her (the monarch's) power comes? Because of what he or she becomes the monarch? Just signing the papers? Nah, there is still sth more than that.

lula 06-06-2014 03:20 AM

Really for me this discussion is becoming obsessive to some people, they seem to want to impose their religious views.

In Spain it has not provoked discussion, not even by the most ultraconservative sectors. It is understood that the Constitution is the principal lay governing the state, and therefore the Head of State should act accordingly.

One thing is the law, and other certain uses and traditions.

Most Spaniards are traditionally Catholic, and there is a social tradition in baptisms, weddings and funerals. Legally the title of His Catholic Majesty does not exist ... as it is not the king of Sardinia, Gibraltar or the Indies. Are titles that exist in the tradition, but for legal and real effects not worth anything.

But the Head of State, it must be of all Spaniards, of all religions, so that his proclamation is a civil act.

When Prince Felipe swore the Constitution at 18, there was no mass or religious elements. Franco's dictatorship was a time where church and state were united very strongly, Catholicism was imposed ... King Juan Carlos was proclaimed king still with those laws. But once the Constitution draws a distinction between Church and State, in acts like this they need to highlight it.

Rossina 06-06-2014 03:29 AM

So, they are not going to invite forign guests.

kathia_sophia 06-06-2014 03:44 AM

Oh my, why so much pressure on a religious act? I didn't see any people complain about it on King Phillippe and King WA's Inaugurations. Why is the Spanish Royal Family ALWAYS the target for all things?

The King of Spain is the King of all Spaniards, with religion or not. Remember, Spain still has a deep economical issue, according to this situation, it is pratical and respectfull that none lavish ceremony is held. Nowadays, people should respect and by not having a lavish ceremony and by having a civil one, simple and appropriate, is respecting the Spanish people, which most of them is having economical issues, some families struggle to feed their children. You think they will be very happy to see them full of jewels, with foreign guests, with massive security, etc.? Respect is needed.

Tradition is tradition, but in times like this, if they want the Monarchy to survive, they need to cope with the people, and be more like them and be foremost respectfull of them.

Rhys 06-06-2014 03:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rossina (Post 1672991)
So, they are not going to invite forign guests.

Not to the act in the Congress, but an austere official reception in the Royal Palace for authorities (national & foreign) is planed to take place after the ceremony of proclamation.

So mainly national civilian and military representations and some foreign diplomats.

An Ard Ri 06-06-2014 04:06 AM

Please note that Religious Rants will not be tolerated and will be deleted without warning.

Thank You


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:48 AM.

Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2017
Jelsoft Enterprises