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Hans S 01-14-2013 04:23 AM

Uncrowned monarchs
 
What is the naming/titling protocol of former monarchs who were never crowned?

As I understand it monarchs who were crowned and subsequently lost their throne, i.e. Constantine II of Greece remain being Constantine II of Greece.

Kings who were never crowned, i.e. Edward VIII do not retain that title. So protocol would dictate that Edward VIII be known as the Duke of Windsor.

Am I correct in this or have I the wrong end of the stick? Any help would be welcome.

Thanks

Lumutqueen 01-14-2013 07:33 AM

Edward ascended to the throne and was never crowned, when he abdicated he was given a new title because he was still of royal blood. He was known as that because he was an uncrowned monarch, that was his title.

Edward doesn't retain the title King because he abdicated and his brother took his place. Whereas in Constantine's situation, he abdicated and his countries monarchy fell so no on replaced him.

An Ard Ri 01-14-2013 07:40 AM

I don't think that Constantine II ever abdicated,the monarchy was simply abolished and Greece declared a Republic.

An Ard Ri 01-14-2013 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hans Stoltenberg (Post 1505006)
What is the naming/titling protocol of former monarchs who were never crowned?

As I understand it monarchs who were crowned and subsequently lost their throne, i.e. Constantine II of Greece remain being Constantine II of Greece.

Kings who were never crowned, i.e. Edward VIII do not retain that title. So protocol would dictate that Edward VIII be known as the Duke of Windsor.

Am I correct in this or have I the wrong end of the stick? Any help would be welcome.

Thanks

Only British Monarchs are crowned,most other Monarchies have done away with that custom.

Monarchs who abdicate the throne such as Edward VIII,Queens Wilhelmina and Juliana of the Netherlands were no longer styled as King or Queen following their abdications.Edward was made Duke of Windsor,while Wilhelmina and Juliana reverted back to being Princesses of the Netherlands.

Ex King Constantine II of Greece lost his throne and Greece became a Republic,however he is still referred to as 'King Constantine II' in royal circles.

Artemisia 01-14-2013 10:39 AM

The difference between King Constantine and the Duke of Windsor is not the fact one of them was crowned and the other wasn't, it's the fact one of them abdicated and the other didn't.

When a Monarch voluntarily relinquishes his/her styles and titles (abdicates), he obviously ceases to have them. That means, he/she can no longer be considered a Sovereign or have a right to the title. Edward VIII abdicated and became The Prince Edward (title he automatically held as the son of the Sovereign); he was created the Duke of Windsor later. King Constantine, on the other hand, never abdicated; he lost his crown as a result of a change of regime.

To explain better, Queen Juliana of the Netherlands was crowned in 1848; however, when she abdicated in favour of her daughter, Queen Beatrix, she herself ceased to be a Monarch and was henceforth known as Her Royal Highness Princess Juliana.

An Ard Ri 01-14-2013 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Artemisia (Post 1505101)
The difference between King Constantine and the Duke of Windsor is not the fact one of them was crowned and the other wasn't, it's the fact one of them abdicated and the other didn't.

When a Monarch voluntarily relinquishes his/her styles and titles (abdicates), he obviously ceases to have them. That means, he/she can no longer be considered a Sovereign or have a right to the title. Edward VIII abdicated and became The Prince Edward (title he automatically held as the son of the Sovereign); he was created the Duke of Windsor later. King Constantine, on the other hand, never abdicated; he lost his crown as a result of a change of regime.

To explain better, Queen Juliana of the Netherlands was crowned in 1848; however, when she abdicated in favour of her daughter, Queen Beatrix, she herself ceased to be a Monarch and was henceforth known as Her Royal Highness Princess Juliana.

None of them were Crowned,only British Monarchs are crowned.Dutch Monarchs have an Investiture Ceremony,the regalia is present but they are not crowned.

Greek Monarchs to the best of my knowledge were not crowned either.

Artemisia 01-14-2013 11:14 AM

:previous:
It's true that Britain is the only current Monarchy which has a full coronation ceremony.

Greece has crown jewels which were given to Otto I, but no King was ever crowned with them. In regards to the Netherlands though, I'd say their inauguration ceremony is as close to a coronation as it is possible without actually being called one. It is not nearly as lengthy as the British one, but I still consider it a coronation.

On a side note, I always loved this picture of Queen Juliana in the Golden Coach after her inauguration ceremony in 1948.

Rebafan81 01-14-2013 11:20 AM

Great Thread, very interesting

An Ard Ri 01-14-2013 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Artemisia (Post 1505115)
:previous:
It's true that Britain is the only current Monarchy which has a full coronation ceremony.
Although Greece, for instance, has crown jewels, no King was ever crowned with them.

In regards to the Netherlands though, I'd say their inauguration ceremony is as close to a coronation as it is possible without actually being called one. During the enthronement, the crown, orb, sword of state and sceptre are placed on cushions surrounding a copy of the Dutch constitution, with the Monarch seated on a throne opposite them as he/she takes the formal oath to uphold the kingdom's fundamental law. It is not nearly as lengthy as the British one, but I still consider it a coronation.

On a side note, I always loved this picture of Queen Juliana in the Golden Coach after her inauguration ceremony in 1948.

The Dutch Ceremony is laden with pomp but I wouldn't class it as a coronation as its not a religious ceremony and the Dutch Monarch's have never been crowned.Both the King's of Norway and Spain both had religious 'blessing' ceremonies following their proclamations,the regalia were present but neither were crowned.King Juan Carlos I had an "Enthronement Mass" at the Church of San Jerónimo,while King Harald V had a similar ceremony at the Nidaros Cathedral in Trondheim.I also believe the King of Sweden had an enthronement ceremony.

cepe 01-14-2013 11:40 AM

The Heir to the throne becomes the Monarch immediately on the death of the previous Monarch. So a coronation or any other ceremonial is not what makes them King or Queen.

I understand that King Constantine is still King as he lost his throne when Greece became a republic, but how will his son be declared king? I'm using this as an example because it is the continuation of titles etc when there is no longer an "official" monarchy that I find interesting. And are they recognised by existing royal houses? Who decides that?

An Ard Ri 01-14-2013 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cepe (Post 1505130)
The Heir to the throne becomes the Monarch immediately on the death of the previous Monarch. So a coronation or any other ceremonial is not what makes them King or Queen.

I understand that King Constantine is still King as he lost his throne when Greece became a republic, but how will his son be declared king? I'm using this as an example because it is the continuation of titles etc when there is no longer an "official" monarchy that I find interesting. And are they recognised by existing royal houses? Who decides that?

Constantine II is an ex King,Greece is no longer a kingdom,he is still referred to as H.M.King Constantine II in royal circles as a courtesy style.

My understanding is that when Constantine II dies his son will not be King,he will remain Crown Prince unless Greece restores it monarchy and makes him the king. Ofcourse many monarchists might regard the Crown Prince as a titular King after his father's death.

Artemisia 01-14-2013 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cepe (Post 1505130)
I understand that King Constantine is still King as he lost his throne when Greece became a republic, but how will his son be declared king? I'm using this as an example because it is the continuation of titles etc when there is no longer an "official" monarchy that I find interesting. And are they recognised by existing royal houses? Who decides that?

Crown Prince Pavlos will never be King, not even titular, unless Monarchy in Greece is reinstated.

As you said, King Constantine is a King because he was one during the change of regime, and he never abdicated. Pavlos is a different matter altogether.
I guess you could say his situation (title-wise) is similar to that of Crown Prince Alexander of Serbia; although following his father's death he was urged to take the title "King Alexander" by pro-Monarchists, he declined the offer on the basis that since Yugoslavia had no monarchy, he couldn't self-proclaim himself its monarch. Consequently, he is known as Crown Prince Alexander (although the numeral II is usually added to his name).

An Ard Ri 01-14-2013 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Artemisia (Post 1505144)
Crown Prince Pavlos will never be King, not even titular, unless Monarchy in Greece is reinstated.

As you said, King Constantine is a King because he was one during the change of regime, and he never abdicated. Pavlos is a different matter altogether.
I guess you could say his situation (title-wise) is similar to that of Crown Prince Alexander of Serbia; although following his father's death he was urged to take the title "King Alexander" by pro-Monarchists, he declined the offer on the basis that since Yugoslavia had no monarchy, he couldn't self-proclaim himself its monarch. Consequently, he is known as Crown Prince Alexander (although the numeral II is usually added to his name).

Crown Prince Alexander of Serbia is a very good example,hadn't thought of him!

NGalitzine 01-14-2013 01:02 PM

I believe when Leopold III abdicated the throne of Belgium he retained the title and style of a King. The same in Luxembourg, when their monarchs abdicated they retained the style and title of Grand Duke/Grand Duchess. in The Netherlands it is in the law that the abdicated monarch reverts to their former status as Prince/Princess of The Netherlands, although interestingly upon their death people seem to have resumed referring to them as Queen Wilhemina and Queen Juliana.

cepe 01-14-2013 02:00 PM

When the Queen invited monarchs to her Jubilee celebrations, King Constantine was included. Would she have invited the Crown Prince if he had been the most senior Greek royal?

Lumutqueen 01-14-2013 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cepe (Post 1505189)
When the Queen invited monarchs to her Jubilee celebrations, King Constantine was included. Would she have invited the Crown Prince if he had been the most senior Greek royal?

Interesting, I would think so. Simply on the fact they're very close and Pavlos is Charles' godson.

Artemisia 01-14-2013 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cepe (Post 1505189)
When the Queen invited monarchs to her Jubilee celebrations, King Constantine was included. Would she have invited the Crown Prince if he had been the most senior Greek royal?

I suppose it's possible Pavlos would have indeed been invited as the Head of his House.
Crown Prince Alexander of Serbia was, after all, invited - and posed in the official Monarchs photograph.

An Ard Ri 01-14-2013 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cepe (Post 1505189)
When the Queen invited monarchs to her Jubilee celebrations, King Constantine was included. Would she have invited the Crown Prince if he had been the most senior Greek royal?

She also invited the ex kings,Simeon II of Bulgaria and Michael I of Romania.Crown Prince Alexander of Serbia and his wife were also invited as head of that royal house,so its quite possible that Crown Prince Pavlos of Greece could also have been invited if his father or mother were not available. (but he wouldn't have been there as a Monarch ex or reigning)

cepe 01-14-2013 02:09 PM

But if the ex-Kings have died, what about their heirs ?

Lumutqueen 01-14-2013 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cepe (Post 1505203)
But if the ex-Kings have died, what about their heirs ?

We might have to wait for an ex-King to die to find that out, AFAIK there isn't one around other than Alexander.


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