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Lenora 12-28-2011 04:47 PM

Tsar Ivan IV "the Terrible" (1530-1584)
 
Tsar Ivan IV Rurik (1530-1584) was one of the most controversial monarchs of Russia.He became well-known for his cruelty and he was a kind of "Henry VIII" due to his many marriages.
Ivan the Terrible - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
A new research article about his legitimacy:
Google
After his death,his only surviving son ruled for a very short time,dying at quite young age,after this it appeared to be a very dark period of Russian history,full of conflicts and imposters.After the last representatives of Rurik dynasty and temporary rulers,the other dynasty came to the throne,it was Romanov's dynasty.

Benedict XVI 12-30-2011 06:11 PM

He was very stupid to kill his first son and heir. By doing this he set up the dynasty to end. If his son had lived there is a fair chance that the dynasty would have stayed in power and we wouldn't have herd of the Romanovs.

Lenora 12-30-2011 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Benedict XVI (Post 1352316)
He was very stupid to kill his first son and heir. By doing this he set up the dynasty to end. If his son had lived there is a fair chance that the dynasty would have stayed in power and we wouldn't have herd of the Romanovs.

Well,at least they could have had a chance,as his eldest son was healthy in comparison with his younger brother.

Benedict XVI 12-30-2011 09:56 PM

Yes that is true and towards the end of his reign he realized that he shouldn't have done it. Especially over the topic for which he killed him. His wife was disrespectful to him ( or so he thought).

XeniaCasaraghi 03-01-2012 12:51 AM

I recall that Ivan killed his son by accident, he struck him in a fit of rage; and he was repentant soon after. It's Peter The Great killing his son that disgusts me.
Anyway, can someone list all of Ivan's wives and how/why they they were replaced?

Lenora 03-01-2012 04:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XeniaCasaraghi (Post 1380279)
I recall that Ivan killed his son by accident, he struck him in a fit of rage; and he was repentant soon after. It's Peter The Great killing his son that disgusts me.
Anyway, can someone list all of Ivan's wives and how/why they they were replaced?

Ivan the Terrible probably married nine times, ridding himself of unwanted wives by forcing them to take the veil ( some of them were sent to monastery) or arranging for their murder.
Here is the list:
1. Anastasia Zaharyina ( by whom he had two sons) (unknown cause of death);
2.Maria Temruk ( probably poisoned);
3. Marfa Sobakina ( died after 2 weeks following marriage);
4.Anna Koltovskaya ( sent to the monastery);
5.Maria Dolgorukaya ( killed by the tsar's order);
6.Anna Vasilichikova (sent to the monastery and soon died);
7.Vasilisa Melentieva ( the only wife that was a widow marrying Ivan, murdered by the Tsar's order,according to some sources she was buried still alive );
8.Natalya Korostova ( soon disappeared after marriage);
9.Maria Nagaya ( survived the Tsar, by whom he had his youngest son Dimitrii).
Here is the link:
Сколько жен было у Ивана Грозного?
Google

An Ard Ri 03-01-2012 06:19 AM

Ivan The Terrible: Dance Of The Oprichniks

Ivan The Terrible: Dance Of The Oprichniks - YouTube

Benedict XVI 03-02-2012 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lenora

Ivan the Terrible probably married nine times, ridding himself of unwanted wives by forcing them to take the veil ( some of them were sent to monastery) or arranging for their murder.
Here is the list:
1. Anastasia Zaharyina ( by whom he had two sons) (unknown cause of death);
2.Maria Temruk ( probably poisoned);
3. Marfa Sobakina ( died after 2 weeks following marriage);
4.Anna Koltovskaya ( sent to the monastery);
5.Maria Dolgorukaya ( killed by the tsar's order);
6.Anna Vasilichikova (sent to the monastery and soon died);
7.Vasilisa Melentieva ( the only wife that was a widow marrying Ivan, murdered by the Tsar's order,according to some sources she was buried still alive );
8.Natalya Korostova ( soon disappeared after marriage);
9.Maria Nagaya ( survived the Tsar, by whom he had his youngest son Dimitrii).
Here is the link:
Сколько жен было у Ивана Грозного?
Google

He had a lot of wives I didn't release it was that much.

Lenora 03-02-2012 02:58 PM

In a way he was the Russian variant of the English king Henry VIII Tudor.

Daria_S 03-02-2012 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lenora (Post 1380314)
Ivan the Terrible probably married nine times, ridding himself of unwanted wives by forcing them to take the veil ( some of them were sent to monastery) or arranging for their murder.
Here is the list:
1. Anastasia Zaharyina ( by whom he had two sons) (unknown cause of death);
2.Maria Temruk ( probably poisoned);
3. Marfa Sobakina ( died after 2 weeks following marriage);
4.Anna Koltovskaya ( sent to the monastery);
5.Maria Dolgorukaya ( killed by the tsar's order);
6.Anna Vasilichikova (sent to the monastery and soon died);
7.Vasilisa Melentieva ( the only wife that was a widow marrying Ivan, murdered by the Tsar's order,according to some sources she was buried still alive );
8.Natalya Korostova ( soon disappeared after marriage);
9.Maria Nagaya ( survived the Tsar, by whom he had his youngest son Dimitrii).
Here is the link:
Сколько жен было у Ивана Грозного?
Google

Well, he certainly beat Henry in the number of wives. Yikes.

From what I read about this man, he appeared to be rather unstable (well, more of psycho/sociopath). If I remember correctly, to make sure that his subjects were loyal to him, he staged a departure, as if to say that he was leaving his post because the people of Russia didn't want him as their ruler. Of course the said people got scared and begged him to return. I think after that, he went and decided to 'purge' the court of anyone who was disloyal. I think Stalin did the same thing. Come to think of it, he idolized Ivan IV quite a lot.

XeniaCasaraghi 03-02-2012 10:20 PM

On wikipedia I thought they listed that he only had 8 wives? I might have counted wrong or they could be wrong. I haven't researched enough on Ivan and am wondering how the heck he was able to over step the Russia Orthodox rule of only 3 marriages six times!

Daria_S 03-02-2012 11:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XeniaCasaraghi (Post 1381276)
On wikipedia I thought they listed that he only had 8 wives? I might have counted wrong or they could be wrong. I haven't researched enough on Ivan and am wondering how the heck he was able to over step the Russia Orthodox rule of only 3 marriages six times!

I believe he was banned from attending church after a while. They couldn't stop him from worshiping, so I believe he had someone serve the liturgy for him, away from a congregation. I hope that made sense.

Artemisia 03-03-2012 07:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XeniaCasaraghi (Post 1381276)
On wikipedia I thought they listed that he only had 8 wives? I might have counted wrong or they could be wrong. I haven't researched enough on Ivan and am wondering how the heck he was able to over step the Russia Orthodox rule of only 3 marriages six times!

Natalya Korostova mentioned in the excellent post by Daria_S isn't usually considered a "proper" wife. Ivan's legal (but not necessarily church we) wives were:
- Anastasia Romanovna (they were married for thirteen years and her death greatly affected the Tsar's physical and mental health)
- Maria Temryukovna
- Marfa Sobakina
- Anna Koltovskaya
- Maria Dolgorukaya
- Anna Vasilchikova
- Vasilisa Melentyeva
- Maria Nagaya

The Tsar was able to bypass the limit on wives by the Orthodox Church because he only married the first four in Church. In order to marry (in Church) his fourth wife, Ivan had to get a special dispensation from the Church; he also claimed that because his third wife died very soon after the wedding, the marriage wasn't consummated. None of his subsequent marriages were blessed and/or approved by the Church: they were thus considered void in the eyes of the Orthodox Church, although children from those marriages would have been considered legitimate.

Lenora 03-03-2012 08:11 AM

Actually, Natalya Korostova was a niece of one of the church leaders of the time,but Ivan murdered him in order to marry the one he wanted to. Probably, this marriage has been considered only in Ivan's eyes and his favourites.
It's interesting the information that Ivan planned to marry even a foreign princess, for example the widow of the Swedish prince of the time or the relative of Elizabeth I Tudor. Of course , he was refused.

XeniaCasaraghi 03-03-2012 07:29 PM

Was Ivan really so terrible? I know he was quite brutal but were his tactics effective and did they make Russia a safer more stable country? For example, Vlad Tepes is viewed as a cruel leader but he was loved by the Romanians then and is still loved by them today.

Artemisia 03-04-2012 06:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XeniaCasaraghi (Post 1381609)
Was Ivan really so terrible? I know he was quite brutal but were his tactics effective and did they make Russia a safer more stable country? For example, Vlad Tepes is viewed as a cruel leader but he was loved by the Romanians then and is still loved by them today.

I don't think Ivan the Terrible and Vlad IV can or should be compared.

Vlad IV did what he believed was right to keep his country safe during times of turmoil. He didn't commit horrible crimes against his own people and his main concern was to maintain the unity and sovereignty of Romania. Vlad Dracul's image has been, unfortunately, closely associated with that of Vlad Dracula - a character based on several people, including the infamous Elizabeth Bathory. For Romanians, Vlad IV will always be a national hero who saved and united the country in times of need.

Ivan IV was a maniac. Literally. Which is not surprising given the horrors he had to grow up with, including witnessing his mother's murder. As long as his first wife Anastasia was alive, she had a stabilising effect on him; the worst of the Tsar's character certainly didn't show at the time. But once Anastasia died (most probably, murdered by boyars), that severed Ivan's last link with normality. A sane man wouldn't beat up his pregnant daughter-in-law for "immodest dress" causing a miscarriage, or kill his own son in fit of rage. A sane man certainly wouldn't entertain himself by watching brutal murders and tortures of innocent people. His action most certainly did not strengthen the country; if anything, it created an atmosphere of terror and distrust. Unlike Vlad Tepes, Ivain the Terrible committed crimes against his own people.

XeniaCasaraghi 03-22-2012 10:32 PM

Ivan like Vlad grew up in tumultuous times and the horrible things he saw growing up shaped his outlook. He believed his wife had been murdered in a similar manner as his mother. You may not think that Vlad and Ivan have much in common, but my question was despite his cruelty and mental problems was Ivan's reign effective and did it better Russia? Despite killing his heir?

Artemisia 03-22-2012 10:35 PM

:previous:
No, it was not effective. If anything, his reign divided the country even more.
Times of turmoil may require strong, even ruthless leaders, but Ivan wasn't one; he was a psychopath who literally enjoyed others' pain.

XeniaCasaraghi 03-22-2012 10:57 PM

Thanfully I found a site that listed some of Ivan's good aspects and good things he did for Russia and the systems he set in place that lasted until the revolutions. To tell you the truth you are sounding like me and my bias against Henry VIII; I may hate the man and call him an idiotic wife killer, but I can acknowledge the good things he did...the Church of England and fathering Elizabeth. End of his good points :p
Also Henry divided his country and tortured and killed his people on a whim. I'm not saying Ivan was a saint just looking for an objective view other than he was a psychopath.

Artemisia 03-22-2012 11:00 PM

I don't dislike Ivan personally; quite simply, every single book or paper I have ever read on him gave such an overwhelmingly negative portrayal that it is hard for me to see how anything, including difficult times, could redeem his actions.
I'd be interested to learn of the good things he did though.


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