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Lumutqueen 02-11-2012 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DukeOfAster (Post 1369506)
Just wondering since she is the heir to the throne of Monaco should she not be recognized as Her Serene Highness Princess Caroline of Monaco. Since Albert has no children is she not next in line?

She's known as Her Royal Highness The Princess of Hanover, Hereditary Princess of Monaco. The title Her Royal Highness outranks Her Serene Highness, even though she is heir.

An Ard Ri 02-11-2012 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DukeOfAster (Post 1369506)
Just wondering since she is the heir to the throne of Monaco should she not be recognized as Her Serene Highness Princess Caroline of Monaco. Since Albert has no children is she not next in line?

Princess Caroline was HSH Princess of Caroline of Monaco from her birth until her marriage to Prince Ernst of Hanover,since then she has been styled HRH The Princess of Hanover.

Caroline has been heiress presumptive to the throne of Monaco since the accession of her brother in 2005.

Tyger 02-11-2012 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cory (Post 1329707)
Reigning or not a royal is a royal!

Interesting thread.

In the course of my life I have had occasion to know people who - in other circumstances - would be identified as either royal or of noble blood. The backgrounds have all been varied but all have had a curious similarity in that they exhibit certain qualities.

In the women I have noted a physical 'fineness' and in their attitudes and carriage a certain hauteur. (Contrasted by a colleague I once had who was a scion of the Vanderbilt family - raised in opulent wealth and privilege - who yet was the salt-of-the-earth kind of person, so loving and caring of others, with such a lovely disposition, that she was called 'the little Buddha').

In the men I have noted a certain charm and charisma - an ability to rally people to themselves - mesmerizing is a word that comes to mind. In one instance, my friend's antecedents by one generation were Scandinavian nobility/royalty who had left for a life in the US with a forbidden lover one generation back. After WWII his parents were approached by the family to have him taken back to Scandinavia to be raised as the heir of this particular family since the line was dying out, My friend was 3 years old at the time and his parents refused to send him back with the family. However, my friend grew up into a man with considerable charisma, and an ability to rally people around him to a cause or idea.

In sum, I have had the experience that there is a 'something' that exists with the descendants of very ancient lines of 'pedigree'. No matter where they find themselves they rise to the top - like the cream - though oft times the cream can curdle and sour, for sure (like my male friend mentioned above - who was a bit unscrupulous - getting his way - even ignobly - any way he could).

My most recent experience was in the Bahamas a few years ago. I met some nouveau riche Russians - fabulously wealthy, the usual, what one would expect - and in the course of many conversations learned of the aristocratic background - or blood-line - of the wife. It seems she came from a line of Russian aristocrats that escaped being killed in the area around Odessa at the time of the Russian Revolution. Our conversations were far-ranging and I came to understand this woman's views about servants and what she was 'owed' and how 'rulership' works that had me appalled. It was jaw-dropping. Talk about 'old world' - it was like walking through the looking-glass into an upside-down world from another time. She was in every sense an old-world Russian aristocrat with all prejudices and backward notions intact. I found myself having a wicked thought (which I will say in the next paragraph).

Back in the US I found myself talking to an older friend - Hungarian and of the old world - a grande dame of a woman even though she has spent most of her life in the US, grown up here, in fact - she still retains the finesse of an older world about her. As I described to my friend what I had encountered with the Russian woman, I was about to say my wicked thought - 'You know what, listening to her, I had an awful realization - ' My friend smiled knowingly and finished my sentence - 'That they all needed to get killed off - it was the only solution.' Stunned, I stared at her and said, 'That was my thought - it was the only way events could move forward - I realized that if I were confronted by a whole horde of people who thought like her - well, I'm not saying I would ever do such a thing but I suddenly understood why they did do it back then.' She nodded, 'Its a sad thing to say, I know, but its true - that's the way those people thought back then and they were not going to change. Confronted with that - what were the choices? The rest is all romantic nonsense. Have no mistake - it was beautiful - but it was rotten at the core.' She was not surprised that the aristocratic notions of superiority by virtue merely of blood-line (with all the attendant archaic notions) would survive into the 3rd and 4th generations. What also impressed me about the family, though, were the extraordinary beauty of the children - their intelligence - and even genius in music and the fine arts. If ever there was a cultured milieu - this woman was creating it around her with her wealth. She had an instinct for it - and it was breath-taking. The result: they were special, of another order. The 'superiority' was - perhaps - justified? Complicated for sure - but always when I have these encounters I am struck by the influence of heredity on all levels, not just on the physical.

So when do royals cease to be royals? Good question.

Iluvbertie 02-11-2012 04:26 PM

She is still HSH Princess Caroline of Monaco but her father and brother recognise the higher rank of HRH following her marriage to Ernst and that is good enough for me - Monaco - a Principality recognises her as HRH Princess Caroline of Hanover.

FanofMonaco 02-11-2012 05:27 PM

PC said she never wanted to be a princess. So did PS. They refused titles for their children and they were raised by an American. I always wondered if PC was pressured into marrying Ernst by her father. I think he drove Vincent Lyndon away. She said in several interviews over several years that she had no interest in marrying a prince. I don't think its fair to compare this generation of Grimaldis with other royal families.

Jenafran 02-11-2012 07:32 PM

It also may have something to do with having the funds to sustain the "royal" lifestyle after they no longer reign. Maybe the Greek royal family have the funds to sustain their royal lifestyle and others do not. So, these others go to work and eventually blend into the fabric of common folk? Just a thought...

DukeOfAster 02-11-2012 10:14 PM

Just curious. If she succeeds her brother would that out rank the Hanover title or even as head of state of could she still use that title?

NGalitzine 02-11-2012 11:18 PM

Being a member of a reigning family outranks being a member of a deposed family regardless of being styled HRH or HSH. When she used to attend royal events with her husband, such as the weddings in Copenhagen and Madrid, she was seated with the deposed royals while her brother was seated with members of reigning houses.
Not sure what she would do with her title if she were to succeed to the throne while still married to EA. I suppose she could style herself HRH The Princess of Monaco, Princess of Hanover.

Lumutqueen 02-12-2012 04:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NGalitzine (Post 1369646)
I suppose she could style herself HRH The Princess of Monaco, Princess of Hanover.

Even if Caroline succeeds her brother in Monaco she will still be Her Serene Highness The Sovereign Princess of Monaco. Presumably that would still outrank the defunct HRH she holds, of course this depends on if she's still married to Ernst.

DukeOfAster 02-12-2012 11:34 AM

Thank you all for your answers. That was what I assumed.

Tyger 02-12-2012 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NGalitzine (Post 1328250)
Interesting idea. There is a garbage collector/city worker in Toronto who is a legitimate great great grandson of Queen Victoria.....I wouldnt consider him royal. There is also Hermann Von Leiningen who is banking executive. His father was a Prince Von Leiningen and his mother is the sister of former King Simeon of Bulgaria. I consider him a commoner with interesting ancestors as well since German royalty went out of business in 1918.

I have a male friend who is a nuclear physicist - very old now, haven't seen him for a long while, must be close to 80. Fascinating guy - very compelling. ;) Anyway, his brother was the eldest son and bore the hereditary title of their Polish noble family - they had escaped the killing of the Polish nobility by the Nazis during WWII - or the line passed to him after the killing. In the US he - the titled brother - was a chef who wound up working for wealthy families in the NYC area. He died without issue and the title passed to my physicist friend - who will also die without issue so the line will die out (I believe) - but while he does not advertise his background (and only mentions it with some vodka and the music playing and the lights low) - what a perfect image of the dissipated nobleman in his castle, drinking and exploring the delights of women, old and young. Extremely compelling guy - goes to my point about there being a 'something' in the bloodline. Anyway - its been my experience/fantasy. I am talking about someone who is carrying the inherited title - not just a descendant.

To my mind my friend is nobility but without money or estate (or a country for that matter). If he went back to Poland I would hazzard that he would be 'recognized' as such - were he so inclined - which he isn't. (Though they would hardly rush to reinstate the family estate and wealth, of course) For him its just a curiosity. To me I fancy that I do sense a kind of 'chrism' is on him - a kind of 'marking' that sets him apart from others. He has an interesting impact on people who meet him. Again, just my fancy talking.

KeepMovingForward 02-13-2012 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lumutqueen (Post 1369478)
In 1919 royalty and nobility were mandated to lose their privileges in Germany, hereditary titles were to be legally borne thereafter only as part of the surname, according to Article 109 of the Weimar Constitution. He is allowed to call himself a prince therefore his wife is a Princess. Monaco recognizes her German royal titles and her style as a Royal Highness.

According to my understanding of current German law, Germany does not recgonize princely/noble titles (unless they are a legitimate foreign royal such as Queen Elizabeth II). That a German citizen can claim an extinct German title or prefix as part of their surname, call themselves anything they want, or that Monaco officially recognises the claim is irrelevant. The same thing can be said about the Duchess of Windsor. Socially speaking she could claim HRH all she wanted, but George VI specifically restricted the use of HRH to the Duke of Windsor in letters patent. By claiming HRH for the Duchess the Windsor the Windsors showed a lack of respect towards the British monarchy, King George VI, the British government, Parliament, and the people that elected the British government.

If we follow your logic then anyone claiming a style or title is legitimate regardless of whether or not the State recognizes it. I don't agree with that line of thinking.

Lumutqueen 02-13-2012 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KeepMovingForward (Post 1370135)
That a German citizen can claim an extinct German title or prefix as part of their surname, call themselves anything they want, or that Monaco officially recognises the claim is irrelevant.

Except it is Germany themselves and their constitution which allow Ernst August to use his previous title as part of his surname. Also if a reigning royal family accepts the defunct title, as many do in many non-reigning royal cases, then I don't exactly see the problem. You called Caroline "delusional and pretentious", I assume because it was due to her using a title she does not have, you feel the same way about every non reigning royal family who continues to use their previously held titles yes? Follows your line of thinking.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KeepMovingForward (Post 1370135)
If we follow your logic then anyone claiming a style or title is legitimate regardless of whether or not the State recognizes it..

Actually that's not my line of thinking, you seem to have got confused. If the state by which the title comes from allows the bearer to use it as part of their surname, I have no issue with it. If a title is also recognised by royal families across the globe than I also have no issue, as they know a lot more about titles than me. It is clear that in practically all countries Caroline is accepted as HRH The Princess of Hannover in regards to her seating in royal weddings and events, she sits with deposed royals instead of reigning royals.

KeepMovingForward 02-15-2012 01:38 PM

Lumutqueen,

I think you're missing my point completely. As a tenth generation American and fifth generation Texan republicanism runs through my DNA and thus I strongly believe that authority derives from the People. The People of Germany through their legislative processes do not recognize defunct German titles, therefore, I do not recognize defeunct German titles. OTHO, the People of the United Kingdom through Parliament recognize Queen Elizabeth II as their queen, therefore, I recognize her as such. The Queen derives her position from the People of the United Kingdom. The only monarch/head of state that I can think of that this principle does not apply is the Pope in Vatican City, and that is based upon Roman Catholic theology. Even then there are some Roman Catholics who don't recognize B16 as the current pope.

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this subject. This horse isn't going to get any deader :tongue: ;)

Have a nice day :smile:

NGalitzine 02-15-2012 01:58 PM

When I started this thread I meant families that lost their thrones a long time ago such as the Orleans in France, the Habsburgs in Austria, the Romanovs in Russia and all the German princes. I think when there is no longer anyone alive who can remember when you were on the throne you have well and truly become a commoner who just has an interesting set of ancestors. This is especially true when the last reigning monarch of your line has long been in their tomb and you most likely need to support yourself with some mid level executive job.

Lumutqueen 02-15-2012 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KeepMovingForward (Post 1370879)
I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this subject.

Indeed we are going to disagree as your beliefs contradict what almost everyone seems to believe and accept, including ruling houses and governments.
German government does not recognise defunct titles, that is true. But they recognise the use of them in surnames. Or surely by now someone would have told Ernst August and Caroline to stop using them, or written up a new law to complete remove the use of previously held royal or noble titles from names entirely. As far as I know they haven't done this, the use of titles as part of a name is recognised by the German government, I can't speak for the people but i'm sure they'd mention something if they had a grumble, and I believe almost all the reigning monarchs in the world - that's fine and dandy to me.

Last question; I assume then that seeing as other countries with non reigning royal families, who still use their previously held titles but are not recognised by the government, you feel the same way towards? Greece, Italy etc?

platinum69 10-14-2012 08:12 PM

Absolutely not....

Mirabel 10-14-2012 10:26 PM

I feel the same way. A monarch without a throne is just another resident, imo. Nobody special.

ldmemail 12-07-2012 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NGalitzine
My question is when do ex-royals or members of families who were once royal cease to be royal. The Romanoffs, Habsburgs, Hohenzollerns ceased to reign after WWI. Roumania, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia and Italy ended their monarchies after WWII. It has been even longer since families like the Orleans, Bourbon Two Siclies , Braganzas reigned, not to mention all of the minor reigning & mediatized familes of Germany and the Holy Roman Empire. A lot of us have royal or noble families in our ancestry but we don't consider ourselves royal or noble. What period of time has to pass before members of these former royal families come to be thought of as commoners with interesting ancestors and rather pretentious for them to still use royal styles and titles.

I think by definition, one is either royal or not. If one divorces from a royal partner then one could be classed as an ex-royal. Of course I agree that there would have had to have been a crown somewhere in the past, but one's heritage is part of one's makeup and so one never loses it.

NGalitzine 12-07-2012 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ldmemail (Post 1490973)
I think by definition, one is either royal or not. If one divorces from a royal partner then one could be classed as an ex-royal. Of course I agree that there would have had to have been a crown somewhere in the past, but one's heritage is part of one's makeup and so one never loses it.

Well then pretty much everyone in England is royal since most of us seem to have a monarch somewhere in our lineage. 30% of us descend from Edward III and a rather large number descend from Charles II since he took his role as father of the nation rather seriously:biggrin:


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