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Warren 06-16-2011 01:14 PM

General Royal Genealogical questions
 
A thread for general questions relating to Royal genealogy which don't fit in any of the Royal Genealogy Forum topic-specific
or House-related threads.


o o o


PrinceS 06-17-2011 07:01 PM

Thank you for creating this thread, Warren,

I am researching royal and aristocratic deaths in January 1968 and February 1968. I am looking for names (even lesser-known) and date of death. I'll do the follow-up research in libraries and online, but at this point I'm just trying to compile names.

Can anyone help?

cmbruno 11-15-2011 07:59 AM

Help from Londoners wanted
 
I belong to a newsgroup on Genealogy and a friend there is researching the family on the Countess of Rio Novo, Mariana Claudina Pereira de Carvalho. She was the founder of the city TrÍs Rios in Rio de Janeiro State, Brazil and died in London on June 5th 1882, after going through a surgery. Her remains were later transferred to Brazil in 1885.
My friend has written to The Guardian to see if they have anything on her (obituary). If anybody subscribes The Times, it would be a great help if he/she could research for any info on the Countess.
Any suggestions of hospitals in London at that time where rich people could have gone through a surgery, undertakers, cemeteries, other newspapers, would be also welcome.

Nice Nofret 11-15-2011 08:38 AM

In 1882 a lot of surgerys for the rich where performed in privat practice, even at home - and not in hospitals.

Hospitals were for the poor

NGalitzine 11-15-2011 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PrinceS (Post 1269181)
Thank you for creating this thread, Warren,

I am researching royal and aristocratic deaths in January 1968 and February 1968. I am looking for names (even lesser-known) and date of death. I'll do the follow-up research in libraries and online, but at this point I'm just trying to compile names.

Can anyone help?

The Times used to publish books of notable obituaries. Your library may be able to find one covering the 1960s period for you.

cmbruno 11-15-2011 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmbruno (Post 1337531)
I belong to a newsgroup on Genealogy and a friend there is researching the family on the Countess of Rio Novo, Mariana Claudina Pereira de Carvalho. She was the founder of the city TrÍs Rios in Rio de Janeiro State, Brazil and died in London on June 5th 1882, after going through a surgery. Her remains were later transferred to Brazil in 1885.
My friend has written to The Guardian to see if they have anything on her (obituary). If anybody subscribes The Times, it would be a great help if he/she could research for any info on the Countess.
Any suggestions of hospitals in London at that time where rich people could have gone through a surgery, undertakers, cemeteries, other newspapers, would be also welcome.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nice Nofret (Post 1337541)
In 1882 a lot of surgerys for the rich where performed in privat practice, even at home - and not in hospitals.

Hospitals were for the poor

Now it came to my mind that info about the most likely hotels the countess might have stayed at could also be a great help.

Kataryn 01-12-2013 12:51 PM

I don't know if this is the right thread to put it in but I just wanted to share exiting information I received today.

It started that we found my father's German ancestry proof (Ahnenpass) from the Nazi-times. There direct descent till the great-grandparents was established. The data I found on my great-great-grandmother led me to a ancient noble family from France, whose Austrian descendant my ancestress possibly was. I started looking for proof of this thesis.

And today I was sent by a distant relative I had unearthed an official document from the inheritance of a common relative, who, like my ancestress, was paternally descended from said family and maternally from the family I got the information from.

In it an official from the former Imperial and Royal Home Office (k.u.k. Ministerium des Inneren) declared that checks into the lineage and nobility of our common ancestor found proof of the membership of said ancient noble family and permission to carry the name and title of said family for the newly immigrated family in Austria.

I had already known through family hearsay that our ancestor had been forced to leave France because of his favorism of the Ancient Regime in the 1800s. But now I have the proof of this and of a family connection, which established my own direct-line descent from Charlesmagne and William the Conqueror!

Well, it is a sad thing really to see on which level of society we landed after my ancestors really had it big - I have no claim to nobility or riches whatsoever, but then I am more noble than Catherine Middleton! And I'm content and happy alone to know that some people I was always interested in were actually my own ancestors..

Just wanted to share that information with you - great discovery for me.

Mariel 01-12-2013 05:01 PM

Kataryn, I have admired your knowledge on TRF, and particularly am grateful for your posting of the material from the Hunter and McAlpine book on royal porphyria. I am glad you found this noble connection. I can't find my noble "stream" down to me, although I must have had one in medieval Scotland, from the history of my family way back then, and the common ailment I have with the Stuarts. I am afraid I don't even know how to look, and it isn't as important to me as it is to you...I have too many current challenges to look. But the McAlpine-Hunter material I had only heard about and was able to read word for word, thanks to you.

My Pollocks were supposedly related to the predecessor of Charlemagne, the Merovingian Clovis. That's what their website says, but I don't know how they think this is true. There are some errors on their site which I know to be errors because of my further research...a historian in Scotland told me that the woman named Mauricle, first Lady of Rothes, was actually a Muriel, which is known from her signature in Latin on donation documents to medieval priories. The Pollocks gave a lot to Paisley and Melrose abbeys, and this is the best source of documentation of their time period, place, etc. But Muriel didn't live in Renfrewshire, she lived in far North Scotland in the Castle of Rothes built by her "Norman castle builder" father, Peter de Pollock (my "uncle"). Muriel built a church and a hospital in Rothes, and her daughter Eva was the second Lady of Rothes. Eva's daughter is not named as she married Sir Norman de Leslyn and disappeared into the great mass of wombs.

Anya04 04-05-2013 11:41 AM

Non-royals forced to change last name
 
I'm new to this forum, so I hope this is the right place to post this.

Was it ever common or even heard of for people to have to change their last name because it was the same as the royal family of that country? Story goes that one of my ancestors was forced to change their last name because it was the same as the royal family, even though they left the country when they were a child (supposedly). Does that sound like something that could have happened ? There's no proof as to what his last name would have been before then, or anything that shows he actually had to change it. There's no birth certificate.

Thanks!

Kataryn 04-05-2013 12:46 PM

I can only imagine something like this happening in countries where Royality is treated close to deities - like Thailand or Japan. But not in a European country. A lot of the Royal families don't even have surnames and the others have no problem to share them - eg there are many people called Windsor who are not related to the BRF. Or Bernadottes in France.
.

norenxaq 04-06-2013 12:57 AM

this seems to have been a common practice in china

Anya04 04-06-2013 12:22 PM

Hm... so in the Prussia/Belarus/Scandinavia/Germany/northern Europe areas, they would definitely not have had to change it?

NGalitzine 04-06-2013 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anya04 (Post 1536812)
Hm... so in the Prussia/Belarus/Scandinavia/Germany/northern Europe areas, they would definitely not have had to change it?

Cannot think of a single case in Europe where a non related commoner family had to change their names because a family with the same name became rulers of the nation.

Edgar 07-14-2013 08:45 AM

Genealogy expert for Europe region needed
 
Dear Sir/Madam,

Could you recommend most precise service for blood test with competent DNA database as it possible to get , regarding Royal blood for documentation in court processes for heritage and status ?

Regards Edgar

WarHiker 12-30-2014 09:10 PM

How Common Is ....... Geaneology
 
I'm curious how common it is to have a Great great great (to alot) power grandfather that is royal?

How common is it to have multiple royal ancestors?

Should I feel special, or is it VERY VERY common?

I have these connections on many different levels of my heritage?
Does it matter which royal family?
Does it matter how far back?

I'm pretty new into looking my past, as one of my royal connections was highly debated. But, I'm proud to have found more that is not debated.

Wouldn't this give creedence to the debated connection?

Thanks for the replies in advance.
I'm not sure if I posted this in the right section.

Mermaid1962 12-30-2014 10:00 PM

One rule in genealogy is to have solid sources which can be objectively confirmed. Don't assume that a connection is there because it appears to be there. Try to get a document to back up every connection you make. That's hard to do if you're going into the distant past for your ancestors. There's a theory that Europeans are all descendants of Charlemagne, for example:Charlemagne’s DNA and Our Universal Royalty – Phenomena

So my advice is: prove what you can by documentation. I find that people in genealogy are very happy to help other people who are searching. If you can link in with research that's already been done, you'll be able to confirm more of your background.

If you definitely find many royal ancestors in the recent past (the past few centuries), then I think that you are special indeed.:flowers:

Grandma828 12-30-2014 10:43 PM

Have fun with the search. Invest in a good genealogy program so you can attach copies of all source documents. Be sure to list all sources with vol. and page number. Start with yourself and work backwards. Prove, prove, prove. With the fact that names were repeated in families make sure you have the correct one. Sometimes it can feel like looking for a needle in a haystack.

WarHiker 12-30-2014 10:49 PM

Well, I have lots of sources.
An using ancestry. Com
I understand that many records
Are user made, but I am focusing on the official

While I trust my findings, I really need a second opinion.
And I can't afford a professional.

If anyone knows someone who can verify,
I will be forever Grateful.

I believe someone can evaluate my tree online,
But am unsure how that works.

Lee-Z 12-31-2014 05:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WarHiker (Post 1735860)
Well, I have lots of sources.
An using ancestry. Com
I understand that many records
Are user made, but I am focusing on the official

While I trust my findings, I really need a second opinion.
And I can't afford a professional.

If anyone knows someone who can verify,
I will be forever Grateful.

I believe someone can evaluate my tree online,
But am unsure how that works.

You are right, you should always verify usermade records by the original source (if only for typing errors etc. which could throw you way off course).
Also: please note that even the old records can be wrong sometimes because of writing errors etc. I have a person in my family who was born a couple of years after the death of their father, but on further looking into the actual baptism books, it turned out that the birth was scribbled on a separate piece of paper that was put at the back of the baptism book and therefore it seemed that the piece was the continuation of the end of the book). The handwriting on this piece however was different than at the end of the book, and when I looked into the other births on that piece of paper (from other families), found out that all these births had actually occured a few years earlier...
I've also seen happen that the father's or mother's name were accidently switched around or that the grandfather's name was put there, so even on original records, always be aware there could be mistakes..
With children born out of wedlock, the biological father was not always known, sometimes it's scribbled in between the lines with pencil, but still: there was no DNA testing then, so there's always the chance that they got it wrong at the time. That said, even with children born *in* wedlock, you're not always sure that the actual father was mentioned (but that is very very difficult to trace)

Being decended from royalty is not very common, it still is something special if you find that in your family tree, but it depends a bit on where your ancestors came from; mine are from the south of the netherlands and have lived there for centuries, no royals ever lived there (not even close) so in my tree there are only farmers and peasants (and lots of them ;) ).

If you *do* have royal ancestry, then the good news is that you can trace your line back a lot further than from a commoner, so that is something to look forward too ;)

WarHiker 12-31-2014 11:04 AM

Thank you for the reply. I have noticed many errors in some of the user made trees. One common one is seeing the same man be listed as his father, with his wife being listed as his mother.

I have even found some problems in census records, with someone reading an H as a W. I am amazed that there are not more errors, with the cursive handwriting being a bit difficult to read.

The length of being able to trace back is quite interesting, and is one reason that I am looking for verification. As it stands right now, I traced one line back before Jesus.

I figure the best verifications that can be done will be done by SoAR (American Revolution) and BoMC (Magna Charta) that I am looking to join. I really just wanted verification before I submit official documents. However, I am sure they deal with false claims often.

This is a very interesting website. I look forward into delving into some old tradition and history. Where is the scholarship section for royals?

How does one determine royal status? I understand there are some different levels of royals (with the British being at the top). So far, I have been clued off more by titles of people (count/ess, Knight, Earl, etc.) and less by their name. Of course with a name like King of Turkey, it is quite easy to notice.

Most of my findings have been independent of my families own writings. I have our own history (from books), but this is what is "debated" in the genealogical community. I personally think that "the powers that be" have reason to deny certain claims (even if they are true). Ever since I was small I believed in this debated origin, but have realized that I will only truly know upon my own death.

Wow, sorry for the book that I have written.


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