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-   -   An Heir for Albert with Charlene (http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f153/an-heir-for-albert-with-charlene-27978.html)

NotAPretender 06-24-2010 10:45 AM

An Heir for Albert with Charlene
 
Well, it's only natural as well as rationale to speculate, n'est pas?

With the changes in the Monaco laws of succession, will there be provision for equal promigeniture for Albert's children with Charlene?

crm2317 06-24-2010 10:53 AM

In this day and age I think it is only fair. Why should they not be considered in order of birth as opposed to by sex.

Nathalie Cox 06-24-2010 11:23 AM

For now, until Albert has any children with Charlene after marriage, Andrea is still the heir. What if they don't have any children? That would be interesting, i mean, getting married and not having any issue. It's a possibility...

NotAPretender 06-24-2010 11:31 AM

Of course, there is the distinct possibility of no children. Happens all the time!

However, my question is more of a "what does the law of Monaco currently state?" Is it male-preference or gender-neutral with regard to the place of heir to the throne?

Nathalie Cox 06-24-2010 11:42 AM

^I think it's male preference, but i'm not sure. You know, Caroline saved Monaco to be part of France, but when Albert was born, he automatically became the heir. But, it's been 50 years since that.

According to wikipedia:

Quote:

The 2002 changes make the succession law more restrictive than previous versions. Under the old rules, the reigning Prince could adopt an heir who would succeed him if the Prince died without biological children. Prince Albert could have then adopted one of his nephews, or even someone unrelated, and made the person his heir. That option no longer exists. Now, if Prince Albert II fails to marry and father a legitimate heir, the crown will automatically pass to one of his sisters or one of their children—regardless of any illegitimate children he has fathered
the whole article:
Line of succession to the Monegasque throne - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
It's still male preference.

LadyMacAlpine 06-24-2010 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NotAPretender (Post 1102029)
Of course, there is the distinct possibility of no children. Happens all the time!

However, my question is more of a "what does the law of Monaco currently state?" Is it male-preference or gender-neutral with regard to the place of heir to the throne?

Male before female. Princess Caroline is heiress presumptive because Albert is still unmarried and has no legitimate children. When/if Albert marries Charlene and if they have children Caroline will be bumped from her position as heiress presumptive and Albert oldest legitimate son will be heir apparent and Marquis of Baux as he was on his birth.

Lumutqueen 06-24-2010 12:43 PM

Wow this is going a bit quick.
They only got engaged yesterday.
We've got threads for the wedding, threads for the dress and now for babies.

A thread similar to this was created only days before the wedding of Victoria and Daniel.

Moonmaiden23 06-24-2010 01:52 PM

From what I understand, if Albert and Charlene only produce daughters and no sons, any man that the Heiress Presumptive eventually marries will HAVE to agree to give up his own name and adopt the coat of arms and the name of the Grimaldis.

And yes, unless the Constitution is altered, males take precedence over females in the line of succession.

Nathalie Cox 06-24-2010 01:58 PM

But i don't think Caroline will marry again...(that's my point of view)
I don't understand, are you saying that if they have a daughter, Andrea would still be the heir? I thought that as he has a child, she/he would be the heir. Suppose they have a girl, then a boy. So the boy would be the heir, like it hapenned with Caroline and Albert.

Moonmaiden23 06-24-2010 02:03 PM

Hi Nathalie...that is a great point and I am not certain of the answer...if Charlene only produces daughters would the eldest one become Heiress Presumptive...or would the throne pass to Princess Caroline and her children?

Maybe someone else here knows and can answer for us?

libra65 06-24-2010 02:13 PM

All of Albert's legit children will supercede Andrea no matter what their sex is. It will be legit his sons, his legit daughters, Caroline, her sons, her daughters, Stephanie, her son and her legitimate daughter.

Nathalie Cox 06-24-2010 02:16 PM

I see. It makes sense. Thanks libra65! :)

Timea83 06-24-2010 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23 (Post 1102130)
Hi Nathalie...that is a great point and I am not certain of the answer...if Charlene only produces daughters would the eldest one become Heiress Presumptive...or would the throne pass to Princess Caroline and her children?

Maybe someone else here knows and can answer for us?

According to the constitution of Monaco the first legitime male heir will inherit the throne and the title.if the first born child is female she should become the heiress presumptive. She would replace the the position which now Caroline owns. By the way Charlene only produces daughters the eldest one will become Her Serene Highness Reigning Princess of Monaco after the death or abdication of PA. Princess Caroline remains her position if Albert dies without legitime issue. So if it fits Albert should produce only one legitimte heir ( a female or male) to protect his bloodline.However I think Charlene and PA should have two children. I think PA doesn't desire more.He has already two. He has to bring up these children. He will have more responsibilities with their children.

Nathalie Cox 06-24-2010 02:25 PM

I know they haven't got married yet, but i'm so excited to see if Albert will have a child!

Timea83 06-24-2010 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nathalie Cox (Post 1102143)
I know they haven't got married yet, but i'm so excited to see if Albert will have a child!

We are excited too. Unfotunately we should wait at least for this two years:whistling:

Moonmaiden23 06-24-2010 02:32 PM

Hi Timea83, thanks for the info.

I think Albert does indeed want more children, and his subjects definitely want to see him produce legitimate heirs. Why not? He cannot have a very active and VISIBLE role parenting the two that he has..Jazmin Grace lives in America with her mother. I read somewhere that little Alexandre lives nearby with his mother and Albert visits him frequently but that cannot be very fulfilling for either of them, frankly.

Besides...Charlene is a young woman who will doubtless want children of her own to love.

Timea83 06-24-2010 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23 (Post 1102151)
Hi Timea83, thanks for the info.

I think Albert does indeed want more children, and his subjects definitely want to see him produce legitimate heirs. Why not? He cannot have a very active and VISIBLE role parenting the two that he has..Jazmin Grace lives in America with her mother. I read somewhere that little Alexandre lives nearby with his mother and Albert visits him frequently but that cannot be very fulfilling for either of them, frankly.

Besides...Charlene is a young woman who will doubtless want children of her own to love.

Hi Moonmaiden. Alexandre lives in Villefranche- su -Mer. It is a beautiful French village near Monaco. I don"t want to speculate if he visits AC frequently or not.It is sure if he will have legitimite children the they will be 'desired and wanted 'kids.I also think Charlene wants children on her own.
I really don"t know what kind of relationships or connection she will have with them with that marriage. Will she become the stepmother of Alexandre and Jasmine upon the marriage with PA?

Leslie2006 06-24-2010 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23 (Post 1102130)
Hi Nathalie...that is a great point and I am not certain of the answer...if Charlene only produces daughters would the eldest one become Heiress Presumptive...or would the throne pass to Princess Caroline and her children?

Maybe someone else here knows and can answer for us?

It sounds like Monaco's succession rules are very similar to those in Britain: the oldest legitimate child of the reigning prince is heir, whether the child be male or female. However, if a girl is born first, and followed by a younger brother, Albert's son would be moved above his sister in the succession. So say Albert and Charlene did have children, and a daughter was born first, and a son second (birth years are hypothetical!), the line of succession would look something like this:

Albert II
Son (born 2014)
Daughter (born 2012)
Caroline
Andrea
Pierre
Charlotte
Stephanie
Louis
Pauline

*Note: Stephanie's youngest child, Camille, is not included because her parents never married.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timea83 (Post 1102155)
I really don"t know what kind of relationships or connection she will have with them with that marriage. Will she become the stepmother of Alexandre and Jasmine upon the marriage with PA?

Technically, yes, because both Jazmin and Alexandre are Albert's biological children.

NotAPretender 06-24-2010 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timea83 (Post 1102155)
Hi Moonmaiden. Alexandre lives in Villefranche- su -Mer. It is a beautiful French village near Monaco. I don"t want to speculate if he visits AC frequently or not.It is sure if he will have legitimite children the they will be 'desired and wanted 'kids.I also think Charlene wants children on her own.
I really don"t know what kind of relationships or connection she will have with them with that marriage. Will she become the stepmother of Alexandre and Jasmine upon the marriage with PA?

Yes, she will definitely be their stepmother but what that exactly means is up to the parties to settle - in particular, the mothers of these two children who remain the primary parent.

One would hope that it would evolve in as civilized a relationship as with the Crown Princely family of Norway. That was eased somewhat by the fact that the Crown Princess has primary custody of her son by a prior relationship, of course.

Jaya 06-25-2010 12:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NotAPretender (Post 1102294)
Yes, she will definitely be their stepmother but what that exactly means is up to the parties to settle - in particular, the mothers of these two children who remain the primary parent.

One would hope that it would evolve in as civilized a relationship as with the Crown Princely family of Norway. That was eased somewhat by the fact that the Crown Princess has primary custody of her son by a prior relationship, of course.

Apologies but Charlene will "not" become the stepmother of Jaz or eric as she has not nor will I supoose adopt them legally.Charlene will be the wife of their father.If she becomes their stepmother which is a common misconception then she also has rights and responsibilities over their upbringing equal to their mother's rights.


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