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Kotroman 05-18-2010 05:59 PM

Future Monarchical Ordinals
 
As we all know, a single person didn't rule all of Spain until the 16th century. Similar situation occurred in the British Isles as well. Remember how the Scots protested that Elizabeth II couldn't be Elizabeth II and that it was decided that, from then on, British monarchs would always take the the higher of the two numerals from the English and Scottish sequences and use it in all their realms? That makes me wonder: which monarchs are considered when the modern Spanish monarchs take their monarchical ordinals?

Spain was politically unified in the early 18th century, during the reign of the first Bourbon king. He used different numerals in different parts of Spain. In Castile, he was Philip V but in Navarre, he was Philip VII. His sons followed his example. There are even books which mention Alfonso XI as Alfonso VI of Aragon!

But what will happen when the Prince of Asturias ascends the throne? Will he be Philip VI (counting only the Castilian rulers)? Or will the Spanish decide to follow the example of the UK, in order to avoid controversies, and have him use the highest possible numeral? Would he be Philip VIII (there being seven other Philip's that reigned over Navarre)?

Will his daughter reign as Eleanor I or Eleanor II (due to the fact that one of her ancestresses and predecessors was Eleanor I of Navarre)?

Rascal 05-19-2010 09:02 AM

CP Victoria & Juan Carlos I
 
Your post makes me think about Crown Princess Victoria of Sweden. In addition to her great-great-great-great grandmother Queen Victoria from that big island, she also has a grandmother who reigned as queen consort in Sweden, Queen Victoria (sometimes spelled Viktoria), Princess of Baden.

I have wondered to avoid confusion with Queen Victoria-the consort in Sweden and Queen Victoria-the legendary queen regnant, if the CP will choose to be known as Queen Victoria I of Sweden. That would eliminate all doubt as consorts do not have ordinals and the British queen did not use one.

There is precedence as King Juan Carlos I of Spain chose to use this ordinal, I presume because of the reinstatement of the Borbon dynasty as the rulers of the Spanish monarchy he was the first ruler in the current existence.

Any thoughts anyone?

Rascal

BELTRANEJA 05-19-2010 01:38 PM

The first Queen in unifying all the Kingdoms Spain was Juana I , better known as "Juana la Loca", along with her son Carlos I. Juana the Mad was the first Queen of Spain, because she had to all kingdoms of Spain in her person (it was shared with her son Carlos I). In 1648 Europe was signed a pact, it was Peace Westphalia, with it disappeared the Kingdoms and appeared the States. The King Philip IV (Habsburgo) was the first chief of State of Spain.
Prince Felipe will reign as Felipe VI, because Felipe V, who acceded to the throne of Spain after a civil war, was head of state, .

I think that Leonor will ascend to the throne under the name of Leonor I of Spain because hasn´t have in Spain a Queen who has represented the entire Spanish territory with this name.
In conclusion, Juana la Loca was the first Queen who represented the whole territory of Spain, from she, all kings have represented to Spain.

she will have all the old titles of Kingdoms that had in story of Spain, but it only have value story because the Kingdoms don´t exist, it is Spain. "Juan Carlos" is the first king of story of Spain with this name.He is the first...

Kotroman 05-19-2010 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BELTRANEJA (Post 1082502)
Prince Felipe will reign as Felipe VI, because Felipe V, who acceded to the throne of Spain after a civil war, was head of state, .

But that same Philip V used the name Philip VII in Navarre. Even though he ruled one state, he seems to have used different ordinals in different parts of Spain. That's what makes me wonder whether the Prince of Asturias will use the ordinal VI in all of Spain, or use VIII in Navarre only or use VIII in all of Spain.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BELTRANEJA (Post 1082502)
I think that Leonor will ascend to the throne under the name of Leonor I of Spain because hasn´t have in Spain a Queen who has represented the entire Spanish territory with this name.
In conclusion, Juana la Loca was the first Queen who represented the whole territory of Spain, from she, all kings have represented to Spain.

True, Eleanor I ruled only a small part of Spain (Navarre). But Philip I ruled Castile and Leon only, yet he is counted. Ferdinand the Catholic ruled all of Spain during his life but never at once; he only became King of Navarre after ceasing to be King of Castile and Leon. Yet he is counted as well. Isabella I ruled only Castile and Leon, yet there's been Isabella II. Are the rulers of Castile and Leon the only ones to be counted?

Oh, you say that Joanna the Mad was the first ruler to rule all of Spain. That's correct. But she ruled Navarre as Joanna III. Does that mean that we should expect a Joanna IV? I'm confused :ermm:

Personally, I think all should be counted. That would be historically fair and correct + higher ordinals are more fun than lower ordinals :smile:

BELTRANEJA 05-19-2010 04:53 PM

This is for me very difficult to explain
.In Spain two values:

Institutional, Legal: In Spain there is only one title, King of Spain when Juan Carlos was proclaimed king in of the video, 2:00, the President of the Parliament says, "that will reign under the name of Juan Carlos I" he does not refer any another title of nobility, at the institutional level is the only valid King of Spain. Why?
YouTube - Juan Carlos I proclamación en cortes
Because in 1648, by the Treaty of Peace of Westphalia vanished kingdoms, and was born the State, the Kingdoms passed to have story value but not institutional, legal.

Historical :Kigdows Castilla, Leon, Aragon, Navarra .. it only has story value. Have been maintained but with historical value has no legal, institutional ...

When access to the throne Prince Felipe, as his father, the President of the Parlament will have to say, the name and number with the reigning, institutional title, which has legal value .... King Philip VI.
The number is calculated, I think, with the the Kings who reigned all over Spanish territory, Juana reigned over all Spanish territory, with different titles, Queen Castilla, Queen of Aragon, Queen Navarre .... The important thing is the territory, not title with which reigned.

An Ard Ri 05-19-2010 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kotroman (Post 1082544)
But that same Philip V used the name Philip VII in Navarre. Even though he ruled one state, he seems to have used different ordinals in different parts of Spain. That's what makes me wonder whether the Prince of Asturias will use the ordinal VI in all of Spain, or use VIII in Navarre only or use VIII in all of Spain.



True, Eleanor I ruled only a small part of Spain (Navarre). But Philip I ruled Castile and Leon only, yet he is counted. Ferdinand the Catholic ruled all of Spain during his life but never at once; he only became King of Navarre after ceasing to be King of Castile and Leon. Yet he is counted as well. Isabella I ruled only Castile and Leon, yet there's been Isabella II. Are the rulers of Castile and Leon the only ones to be counted?

Oh, you say that Joanna the Mad was the first ruler to rule all of Spain. That's correct. But she ruled Navarre as Joanna III. Does that mean that we should expect a Joanna IV? I'm confused :ermm:

Personally, I think all should be counted. That would be historically fair and correct + higher ordinals are more fun than lower ordinals :smile:

Only half of the kingdom of Navarre was in Spanish hands after 1512,the northern part of the Kingdom lay across the French border.


Joanna the Mad reign of Navarre was disputed with the French Royal Family who supported Henri d'Albert/Henri II of Navarre & his claims to the throne of Navarre.

His daughter was Jeanne d'Albret/Jeanne III of Navarre .

BELTRANEJA 05-20-2010 04:18 PM

The Kingdom of Navarra occupied, part of the spanish territory and part of French territory, when Ferdinand the Catholic conquered it in 1512, the Kingdom was divided, Navarre High and Navarre Low, Fernadind did not conquered the whole of the Kingdom of Navarre,only a part of it( High Navarre). The other part (Navarrra Low) maintained it autonomy under the control of the House of Foix and it was annexed to the crown of France when Enrique of Navarre, became in King of France. The kings of France used the title of Kings of Navarre, but the part known as Lower Navarre, territory not conquered by Ferdinand the Catholic.
Juana la Loca was Queen of the part known as high Navarra conquered by her father ,Ferdinand the Catholic

An Ard Ri 05-21-2010 05:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BELTRANEJA (Post 1082999)
The Kingdom of Navarra occupied, part of the spanish territory and part of French territory, when Ferdinand the Catholic conquered it in 1512, the Kingdom was divided, Navarre High and Navarre Low, Fernadind did not conquered the whole of the Kingdom of Navarre,only a part of it( High Navarre). The other part (Navarrra Low) maintained it autonomy under the control of the House of Foix and it was annexed to the crown of France when Enrique of Navarre, became in King of France. The kings of France used the title of Kings of Navarre, but the part known as Lower Navarre, territory not conquered by Ferdinand the Catholic.
Juana la Loca was Queen of the part known as high Navarra conquered by her father ,Ferdinand the Catholic


The history of Navarre is very interesting as were the lives of many of its Monarchs/Consorts .

Philip II of Spain refused to acknowledge Jeanne d'Albret as Queen of Navarre & always refered to her as 'Madame de Vendôme' (wife of the Duke of Vendôme) :biggrin:

Kotroman 05-21-2010 04:09 PM

Quote:

The number is calculated, I think, with the the Kings who reigned all over Spanish territory, Juana reigned over all Spanish territory, with different titles, Queen Castilla, Queen of Aragon, Queen Navarre .... The important thing is the territory, not title with which reigned.
Well, Philip I of Castile did not reign over all of Spain. He only ruled the Crown of Castile. He did not rule the Crown of Aragon. Therefore, so far, only four men named Philip reigned over all of Spain. Therefore, if you are correct, the Prince of Asturias would have to reign as Philip V. If you were correct, Isabella II of Spain would've been Isabella I of Spain (since Isabella the Catholic ruled only Castile, not all of Spain) and Alfonso XII and Alfonso XIII would've been Alfonso I and Alfonso II (since the preceding men named Alfonso ruled only Castile or only Aragon, not all of Spain).

Quote:

Only half of the kingdom of Navarre was in Spanish hands after 1512,the northern part of the Kingdom lay across the French border.
True, but the successors of Ferdinand the Catholic have always regarded themselves as the rightful Kings of Navarre. They used the title and they used ordinals as Navarrese monarchs (counting all the Navarrese monarchs who reigned over Navarre prior to the conquest of Navarre by Ferdinand the Catholic). Therefore, I am not sure that this is why the Prince of Asturias won't be Philip VIII.

BELTRANEJA 05-24-2010 06:09 PM

You convinced me, the territory does not identify the number, but I've been thinking that the historical origin of the kingdom of Spain, is in Castile, the Spanish language is Castilian, the roots of the Kingdom of Spain are in the Kingdom of Castile.

The kingdom of Navarrra:
Juana la Loca was considered Queen of Navarre, although the territory of the Kingdom had not been completely conquered , by this reason that France never recognized to the spanish Kings as Kings of Navarre and the kings of Spain never considered to the Kings of france as Kings of Navarre.

madeleine victoria 05-26-2010 09:57 AM

Will Felipe be crowned like his father? Like in the videos above?

An Ard Ri 05-26-2010 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by madeleine victoria (Post 1085527)
Will Felipe be crowned like his father? Like in the videos above?

King Juan Carlos I was never crowned,he had an 'Annointing Mass of the Holy Spirit' in 1975 but it was not a Coronation.

BELTRANEJA 05-27-2010 10:02 AM

in Spain there is no act of coronation, this is an act of proclamation ....
The ceremony of Prince Felipe will be like this, it will be in Parliament of Spain, but he will take an oath to obey the constitution and laws.

This is regulated in the Constitution of 1978 in Article 61
Artículo 61.

" El Rey, al ser proclamado ante las Cortes Generales, prestará juramento de desempeñar fielmente sus funciones, guardar y hacer guardar la Constitución y las Leyes y respetar los derechos de los ciudadanos y de las Comunidades Autónomas."

madeleine victoria 05-30-2010 03:06 AM

Thanks. I believe England is the only country that has the coronation ceremony as in putting the crowns on top of the monarch's head?

Kotroman 05-30-2010 05:05 PM

The United Kingdom is the only European country that still has coronations :sad:

An Ard Ri 05-31-2010 07:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by madeleine victoria (Post 1087015)
Thanks. I believe England is the only country that has the coronation ceremony as in putting the crowns on top of the monarch's head?

The UK within Europe & Tonga recently held a Coronation for George Tupou V in 2008.

RJ TAYLER 05-31-2010 09:09 AM

Is there a similar thread to discuss future monarchical ordinals in other countries? As this is the only one I have come across here.


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