The Royal Forums

The Royal Forums (http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/)
-   The Royal Family of Serbia (http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f261/)
-   -   Serbia: The House of Obrenovic (http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f261/serbia-the-house-of-obrenovic-27111.html)

naky 03-04-2010 09:45 AM

Serbia: The House of Obrenovic
 
The House of Obrenović (Serbian: Обреновићи, Obrenovići, often spelled in English as Obrenovich or Obrenovitch) was a noble Serbian family that ruled Serbia from 1815 to 1842, and again from 1858 to 1903. They came to power through the leadership of their progenitor Miloš Obrenović in the Second Serbian uprising against the Ottoman Empire, which led to the formation of the Principality of Serbia. The regents tended to rule autocratically, their popularity waxing and waning over their decades in power.

The house of Obrenović, except Miloš and son Mihailo Obrenović, descends from the Serbian medieval noble house of Orlović, through the stepfather of Knjaz Miloš and of King Milan's grandfather Jevrem, as he was a member of the cadet branch of house Martinović - Orlović.

The family's rule came to an end when an underground movement Black hand throughout the military, killed the last king Aleksandar Obrenović, proximally because of his unpopular choice of a bride. After the end of their rule, a constitutional monarchy headed by the Karađorđević family took its place.

Unlike other Balkan states such as Greece, Bulgaria or Romania, Serbia did not import a member of an existing European royal family to take its throne; the Obrenović Dynasty, like its Karađorđević rival, was a "home-grown" Serbian family.

naky 03-04-2010 09:47 AM

Monarchs

Miloš Obrenović I ruled from 1815 to 1839, when he abdicated, and again from 1858 until his death in 1860.

Milan Obrenović II had a brief reign between June 25, 1839 and July 8, 1839, when he died.

Mihailo Obrenović III ruled from 1839 to 1842, when he was deposed and the Obrenović family lost control of Serbia, and again ruled from 1860 to 1868, when he was assassinated.

Milan Obrenović IV succeeded Mihailo under a regency in 1868, and reigned as King Milan I from 1882 to 1889.

King Aleksandar I reigned from 1889 until he was killed 1903.

RJ TAYLER 03-04-2010 10:51 AM

A fine piece of research there. I am however left with a question. Is there a current claimant to the house?

Marc23 03-04-2010 11:08 AM

Yes,there are descendants of Prince Milosh's half-brother Jakov,but their family name is Jakovljevic...they are the heirs to Obrenovic fortune written in a testament of the last family member Queen Natalia,but they were not claimants to the throne of Serbia...

Karposh 03-16-2010 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marc23 (Post 1056829)
Yes,there are descendants of Prince Milosh's half-brother Jakov,but their family name is Jakovljevic...they are the heirs to Obrenovic fortune written in a testament of the last family member Queen Natalia,but they were not claimants to the throne of Serbia...

In Serbian Wikipedia under Obrenovići, you can see the family tree of the house, including some, but not all members of the Jakovljevic lineage.

The tree also includes George Obrenovic, an illegtimate son og King Milan, and his descendants.

Marc23 07-25-2010 04:47 PM

Well,they are not members of the House of Obrenovic,but just related to them and mostly not included in genealogy tables...Jakov is Milosh's half-brother from his mothers side,so his paternal family and the one of Prince Milosh are not the same...the House of Obrenovic as a ruling family included Prince Milosh,his descendants,also his brother Jevrem,whose descendants were later Kings of Serbia ...

Jakovljevic family members are still alive,recognized as Heirs of Obrenovic fortune left to them as nearest cousins by the last Obrenovic family member to die,Queen Natalia...they fight at various courts for their rights as the heirs to the Obrenovic properties who were nationalized,but not as heirs to the Obrenovic claims of Crown...

CyrilVladisla 03-09-2014 07:30 PM

In 1897, King Alexander I brought his father, Milan, back to Serbia.
In 1898, Alexander appointed Milan commander-in-chief of the Serbian army.

milosmilanovcanin 01-07-2016 01:09 PM

After leaving Belgrade, as monarch of the Yugoslav Royal House, King Petar II Karadjordjevic practically abdicated from the Yugoslav throne. He and his descendants after the breakup of Yugoslavia and the eventual return of Serbia as a state on the world stage more not the first, as a rule heritage, Serbian heirs to the throne.


Although for decades hidden that Obrenovic Royal House has a living descendants, this fact was well known. After the despicable murder of King Aleksandar I Obrenovic in a conspiracy organized by the then Prince Petar Karadjordjevic, it was said, in the same directed that Obrenovic Dynasty no longer living descendants. This story was certainly far from the truth.


Milos brother by mother Lord Jakov Obrenovic had living descendants. Because they were subjected to constant persecution, they had their original surname Obrenovic that changes in Jakovljevic, in accordance with the name of an ancestor of this branch of the Royal Houses Obrenovic. Also, Municipal Court in Gornji Milanovac confirmed the origin of the members of the Royal House. At the meeting, which was held in early July 2015. members of the Privy Council and descendants have decided that the first head of the family and the Royal House becomes H.R.H. Prince Predrag R. Jakovljevic de Obrenovic.

ROYAL HOUSE OF OBRENOVIC

Blog Real 01-07-2016 05:46 PM

What are the links of the Royal House Obrenovic with the Royal House Current?

milosmilanovcanin 01-07-2016 06:24 PM

Connections exist in every views. Today descendants are the inheritors of the Royal House of Obrenovic, while H.R.H. Prince Predrag R. Jakovljevic de Obrenovic, as a descendant of the Serbian Royal Dynasty, Hereditary Prince of Serbia.

Royal House - Royal Family Obrenovic

Blog Real 09-14-2016 09:05 AM

But who is this applicant?

Marc23 10-22-2016 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blog Real (Post 1923746)
But who is this applicant?

Descendant of Prince Milosh's half-brother Jakov from his mother's side.

Apart from that, this royal title and HRH are totally funny and non-existent.

This guy is only one of heirs to Obrenovic's personal fortune, left by Queen Natalia to descendants of Prince Milos's half-brother Jakov.

milosmilanovcanin 12-18-2016 03:11 PM

Of course, title that have HRH Prince Predrag R. Jakovljevic de Obrenovic is not funny at all, least of all non-existent. The claim that there are no descendants of the dynasty Obrenovic binds only to supporters of the rival dynasty Karadjordjevic that in every way they want them to impugn. The reason for this is that the dynasty Karadjordjevic illegally came to the throne 1903. and took a place in which they had no rights.
Regardless of what the Lord Jakov and Prince Milos had a common mother, but not common father, it certainly does not deny the descendants of Lord Jakov Obrenovic succession of all rights that they had the rulers of the dynasty Obrenovic. Like I said, invented rules that tell individuals about whom I have already talked, where it mentions the right of inheritance only through the male line descendants, have no basis.

Marc23 12-19-2016 09:57 AM

It is funny, because you mix things.

Nobody here disputes that they are related to Obrenovic dynasty, but disputes the existence of titles which some of them use today, which is funny.

During the reign of Obrenovic dynasty Jakov's issue didn't have any titles. You can't use titles if you are not given one.

How can they have titles today when they didn't have titles even during the reign of their cousin??? Who and exactly when bestowed titles to them??? Those are self-proclaimed titles...

Hope you understand the difference between these 2 things. They are relatives, but they never had or held any titles.

Descendants of Jakov of course do have personal inheritance rights based on the testament which Queen Natalia left them based on their kin as the nearest Obrenovic relatives and that's all.

milosmilanovcanin 12-19-2016 02:22 PM

In this case, the funny ones who speak of untruths. Did I, or anyone on this forum, talking about personal inheritance. Certainly not. So why mention it? Of course, just because the individuals that I spoke about in the last post, they want to present untruths.
Descendants of Lord Jakov are the successors of the rulers of the dynasty Obrenovic. Do you have evidence that during the reign of the dynasty Obrenovic, descendants of Lord Jakov Obrenovic did not have titles. Because you do not have such evidence, then do not write untruths.
H.R.H. Predrag R. Jakovljevic de Obrenovic is a hereditary prince of the Royal House of Obrenovic. Some of the Royal House in Europe and the world already have renewed relations with the Royal House of Obrenovic, just because the aristocratic origin of the descendants of Lord Jakov Obrenovic they known. In the future everything will be more clearly, while discussions with people who have no authority in this matter will be unnecessary.

Marc23 12-19-2016 07:31 PM

Ohhh, please. This is funny indeed.

Predrag is not male line descendant of either any King so that he automatically has the title of HRH the Prince, or a male-line descendant of any former reigning Prince so that he could automatically have the title of HSH Prince.

As he is a descendant of female line cousin, the ruling Princes Milos, Milan, Mihailo or later Kings Milan or Alexander must have specially created official title for some of Predrag's ancestors.

When bestowed, titles are officially proclaimed so that the public would know them, properly use them and are also officially registered.

As you say that Predrag is actually HRH Prince Predrag that narrows the circle. That means that only King Milan or King Alexander of Serbia could give the title of Prince with predicate HRH to an ancestor of Predrag, since the Kingdom of Serbia existed from 1882.

Before 1882 Serbia was Principality whose Prince did not bear a royal highness title. Male line members of the family were only HSH, except the ruler who was HH.

If Predrag is indeed HRH as you claim, that means that his ancestor could have gotten this title only from either King Milan or King Alexander, that means that the title could be only given in period from 1882 to 1903.

Where is the document or the evidence of that???

So, it's not up to me to prove them, but to you or anyone who claims that Predrag Jakovljevic is actually HRH Prince Predrag.

milosmilanovcanin 12-20-2016 03:53 AM

Yes, yes. How much stupidity in one place. As I have already said, I will continue a conversation with people that can documented to confirm his allegations. Because this person is not, I think there is no need to continue the discussion. Supporters of the dynasty Karadjordjevic I can recognize everywhere, like at this place, which is another reason nothingness of all claims that you have heard here.

To all members of the Forum in the name of the Royal House of Obrenovic, and in the name of the legal successor of the dynasty H.R.H. Prince Predrag R. Jakovljevic de Obrenovic, I wish a very Merry Christmas and a prosperous New Year.

Marc23 12-20-2016 08:44 AM

Since you can't answer any of my questions and you obviously don't have any proof of your claim, it is very logical that you can't continue this discussion.

And before claiming something ridiculous, like that I am some kind of someone's supporter, please check some of my previous posts where I was very critical about leading members of Karadjordjevic family and where I stated that there is no chance of the restoration, partly because of their behavior, as they are not popular among people for various reasons I already stated.

If I were a supporter, as you say, wouldn't it be logical for me to do the contrary???

So, for you or anyone else, I am not here to support anyone or anything, as there is no monarchy, nor anything to support about. I am here just to talk about historical facts and based on that to discuss royals. That's all!

DWC 12-20-2016 09:01 AM

I would be interested to know what the constitution in force in 1903 said regarding the law of succession. I’m not sure if the future King Milan for example not descending from Prince Milos, would have been born a member of the Princely House and that there was a clear line of succession or if he was adopted as heir. Certainly when the family appeared in the Almanach de Gotha in 1903 the only listed family members were King Alexander, his wife and mother, not the Kings elderly female cousins who were daughters of Jovan Obrenovic and looking at the Online Gotha still alive then.

Because of what happened in 1903 with the sudden regicide I can imagine the remaining members of the Obrenovic family forming a family council to decide a new heir amongst themselves because of the vacuum caused by no heir having been nominated by King Alexander, similar to Prince Mihailo having adopted Milan as heir. I personally until recently didn’t realise there were descendants of the family still from half brothers of Prince Milos. So I don’t personally dismiss this claim but like I say I would be interested to know what the constitution said and if there was a house law, as succession to descendants of the brothers of Prince Milos has precedence such as with Prince/King Milan.

The Serbian successions haven’t always been very orderly, even in the Karageorgevitch family there was the senior line which became extinct in 1920 descending from Kara George’s eldest son which claimed the throne in opposition to the junior reigning line which descended from reigning Prince Alexander, the younger son of Kara George.

Marc23 12-20-2016 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DWC (Post 1948395)
I would be interested to know what the constitution in force in 1903 said regarding the law of succession. I’m not sure if the future King Milan for example not descending from Prince Milos, would have been born a member of the Princely House and that there was a clear line of succession or if he was adopted as heir. Certainly when the family appeared in the Almanach de Gotha in 1903 the only listed family members were King Alexander, his wife and mother, not the Kings elderly female cousins who were daughters of Jovan Obrenovic and looking at the Online Gotha still alive then.

Milan didn't have a title before being proclaimed Prince and then King, but Prince Michail was the one who took care after him and sent him to Paris for his education which might be the sign, but hasn't officially proclaimed him his heir.

Based on Serbia's constitution from 1869 (after Milan ascended the throne in 1868), heirs to the throne are only male line descendants of the ruling family.

Only in case there were no male-line members of the ruling family left, heirs to the throne are female line male descendants of Prince Milosh, which means males who are legitimate descendants of his daughters.

The last constitution of King Alexander Obrenovic was in 1901.

Article 6 says:

"U Srbiji vlada Kralj Aleksandar I, iz Dinastije Obrenovića V. Sva prava kraljevska, po više puta
ponovljenim odlukama narodnim, nasledna su u Njegovoj Dinastiji.
Presto Srbije nasleđuje se u potomstvu Kralja Aleksandra ovim redom: Muško potomstvo iz zakonitog
braka po redu prvorođenja.
Ako Kralj ne ostavi za sobom muškog potomstva, nasledstvo prelazi na pobočnu liniju, a ako nijednog
od muških potomaka u Domu Obrenovića ne bi bilo, nasledstvo prelazi na njegovo neposredno žensko
potomstvo, opet iz zakonitog braka."


Literally it means:

"Serbia is ruled by King Alexander I, from Obrenovic dynasty. All royal rights, based on many times repeated national decisions, are hereditary in his dynasty.

The heirs to the throne of Serbia are legitimate male line descendants of King Alexander I from the lawful marriage, based on primogeniture.

If there are no male line descendants of King Alexander, the heirs to the throne are collateral members of the dynasty and if there are no male line members of the ruling family left, the heirs to the throne are female line descendants, again from legitimate and lawful marriage."


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:11 AM.

Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2017
Jelsoft Enterprises