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Warren 02-18-2010 07:15 AM

King Otto (1815-1867) and Queen Amalia ne Oldenburg (1818-1875)
King Otto and Queen Amalia

Arms of King Otto

Lumutqueen 02-18-2010 07:40 AM

Otto, Prince of Bavaria or Othon, King of Greece (1 June 1815 26 July 1867) was made the first modern King of Greece in 1832.

File:Otto of Greece.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Amalia, Duchess of Oldenburg, Queen of Greece (born 21 December 1818 in Oldenburg, died 20 May 1875 in Bamberg) was the consort of King Otto of Greece (1815-1867). Born the daughter of Augustus, Grand Duke of Oldenburg and Princess Adelheid of Anhalt-Bernburg-Schaumburg-Hoym, she married King Otto on 22 December 1836, in Oldenburg. In Greece, the title "Duchess of Oldenburg" was never in use.

File:Joseph Karl Stieler - Duchess Marie Frederike Amalie of Oldenburg, Queen of Greece.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

MAfan 02-18-2010 12:17 PM

Otto and Amalia had no children; so I wonder: if Otto would not have left Greece in 1862, but he would have remained King of Greece until his death, who would have been his successor as King? Maybe his younger brother Luitpold and his descendants? If so, who would have been the successor to King Otto of Bavaria at his death in 1916?

snowflower 02-18-2010 10:05 PM

:previous:The Constitution had made clear that if he died childless, he would be succeded by his younger brothers or their offspring. In fact , when Luitpold's first son was born, they decided to name him as the direct heir of the Greek Throne, surpassing his father , but although they had informed king Ludwig about their intentions, the boy was baptised as a Roman Catholic and the Greeks, very furious, stop the procedures to make him the heir his uncle's throne.

MAfan 02-19-2010 07:30 AM

So, it is not known what would have happened after his death if Otto would have remained King and childless...
My question raised because the descendants of Luitpold, and of his son Ludwig, became the Claimants to the Bavarian Throne, and Ludwig himself King of Bavaria in 1913. So, if in 1867 Ludwig had became King of Greece, who would have become King of Bavaria at the death of King Otto?

snowflower 02-19-2010 08:29 AM

:previous: No it is not known who exactly would succeed him, although he Greeks always thought that if he died childless , one of his Bavarian kins would suceed him, if he was willing to become Greek Orthodox. But I doubt they would have chosen a man who would also be a king of Bavaria at the same time. They didn't after all seek indepedence to be ruled by a foreign king. So , if no Bavarian candidate was available, they would certainly offer the throne to another foreign minor royal after Otto's death.

MAfan 02-19-2010 08:37 AM

This is the problem: at the time of Otto's death, his nephews - the children of Prince Luitpold - were not going to become Kings of Bavaria.
In 1867 the King was the 22-years-old Ludwig II, who had a younger brother; Ludwig II was also going to marry Duchess Charlotte in Bavaria, and nothing foretelled that both he and his brother were going to die crazy and childless, and therefore that their cousin Ludwig would have become King.
So, had Otto reigned in Greece until his death, and had he succeded by his nephew Ludwig, at the death of his cousin King Otto of Bavaria he - the King of Greece - would have become the successor to the Bavarian Throne.

snowflower 02-19-2010 08:48 AM

If that ever happened and Ludwig was the succesor to the Bavarian Throne while King of Greece, then he would quite certainly renounce his rights in favour of his brother Leopold. It seems the most logical decision to me. Besides, I am not cure if Otto retained his rights to the Bavarian throne after he became king of Greece and I believe that if he was succeded by his nephew Ludwig, Ludwig might renounced his succesion rights to Bavaria.

snowflower 02-21-2010 03:43 PM

2 Attachment(s)
Here are two paintings that show Otto and Amalia and Amalia alone
The dress Amalia is wearing is the " Amalia dress" which she designed herself. When she first came in Greece she decided that her dresses should be looking as much as possible like those of her subjects and she created this dress, which is influenced by the Greek folklore dresses. It followed to Biedermeier style. It consists of a embroidered shirt, a kaftan and an emboridered tight jacket and on the head a fez for married and a kaplaki for unmarried women.On top of the fez, she used to wear a lace veil for churh. She made a mix to create this dress ( the jacket was inspired by the jacket women used to wear in the islands , while the kaftani was worn inthe mainland because is too heavy for the climate in the Aegean, and the fez was worn by men), and there are certain accessories worn in the folklore dresses that are missing( apron, belt and head scarf and traditional jewellery which are quite heavy). Because this dress also has some European traits (such as the filly skirt and the thight, corseted upper and the expensive fabric), it became very fashionable to townwomen all over the Balkans. I must say here that Greek women in the court prefered wearing it with a fez , because most of them had dark hair and the red fez looked better on it and it used to also show how much the Queen favoured the one wearing it. The longer the tassel was and the more richly ornated ( they used to hang pearls and golden tissu on it), the dearest was the woman in the court.

snowflower 02-22-2010 06:18 PM

by the way, I've found the succesion law as it is written in the Hellenic Constitution of 1844

Concerning the succesion:
Article 37 . The Greek Crown and its constitutional rights are succesive and will be inherited by the true and legal descendants of King Otto, in order of primogeniture.
Article 38. In case there are no true and legal descendants of King Otto, the Crown wil be iherited by his following brother and his true and legal descendants, in order of primogeniture.
in case he also dies without any true and legal descendants, the Greek Crown and its constitutional rights will pass to his next brother and his true and legal descendants. in order of primogeniture.
Article 39. In case there is no heir fulfulling the above mentioned criteria, The King appoints one, in the presence of the Parliament and of the Senate, and with the vote of approval from the 2/3 of these bodies.
Article 40. Each heir to the Greek Throne must be a member of the Eastern Orthodox Church of Jesus Christ.
Acticle 41. Never are the Crowns of Bavaria and Greece to be merged in one head.

So , it was impossible for the KIng of Greece to become King of Bavaria, even if he was the next in line.

By the way, notice that there is no male primogeniture decided in the constitution. Well either that means that the Greeks of the time viewed womens as equalsto mens( by far too unlikely), or they just didn't notice that they hadn't clarified the succesion law.( it wouldn't suprise me , they made the same mistake in the next Constitution).

principessa 02-24-2010 02:13 PM

Here is a coin with a picture of King Otto of the Hellenes:{54295C86-78FA-4B33-AD4F-F77A6B23FAA2}Picture.jpg

snowflower 02-24-2010 08:20 PM

I am currently reading a vey intersting book about life at Otto's court and it contains many informations about Otto and Amalia. They are described as two very different personalities. Otto was indesicive , slow in his actions and he had many times to be pressuerd by Amalia to take political actions. The real disaster was when he had to sign state papers. He would read at first the order and then, furious with all the spelling mistakes, would sit down and start correcting them ( This seems logical , since he was better on Greek Grammar than most, if not all, of his Greek officers). So, after repeating this for three of four times, no time would be left to sing the rest of the documents and he would postpone it for the next day:lol:.
Amalia on the other hand was extremely vivacious. She loved riding and dancing although the doctors siad that she should give up horse riding if she wanted to conceive. The person closer to her was her governess, who came with her in Greece and died here, although she had a lot of ladies in waiting , Greek and German. She would speak in French to them when they were all assembled ( since the Germans didn't know adequate Greek and the Greeks didn't know adequate German) but this would prove to be very difficult, because the French that her Greek ladies in waiting could speak were awful. Only one refuse to speak on another language and would speak only Greek. It was Katherine " Rosa" Botsaris. The German ladies in waitings used to look down on her because she was very poor, and she would loook down to them, because she was the proud daughter of Markos Botsaris, who was a hero of the Independence War , and her lastname counted more that all the money thay had. Not ot mention that she didn't appreciate them must because she thought them useless and weak with all these corsets and the silly filly petticoats they used to wear( she was raised in a very simple way like most Greek country girls at the time and she was so skilled with weapons she could fight like a man). Greeks and Germans ladies always fought to gain the Queen 's favour and they used to spread rumours about one another. Amalia, on the other hand would be delighted on every little gossip, even if it came from a servantor a maid. It must have been fun living in her suite I suppose:rofl:.....

Jaya 02-24-2010 11:08 PM

Alluding to post no 9
The painting on the left with Amalia standing full portrait length is by Nikiphoros Lytras of the island Tinos.
The "Amalia" Costume was also used as formal "Hellenic" bridal attire in the upper classes and for anyone who could afford it until I was a child.It was later on that white and what were considered Occidental white gowns with long veils etc. of the Victorian era were adapted into Greece.

There was a rumour that King Otto was infertile and that Amalia's horesback riding had nothing to do with conception but was a manner of deflecting off the King so they would not destabilize the monarchy. Do not know how much is truth or fiction but many have said that Amalia died untouched. Either way they did not produce an heir.

MAfan 02-25-2010 05:46 AM

I'm not sure that horse riding prevents a woman from having children; if not, how could Empress Elisabeth of Austria had four children, considering that she used to spend a lot of time riding?

snowflower 02-25-2010 08:36 AM

There have been rumours from Amalia being virgin till her death to Otto being homosexual. But the truth is that Amalia suffered from a condition ( the name I don't remember it now), and had a form of internal dysplasia, which made it very difficult to have physical relationship with Otto and impossible to conceive. Her Greek doctors were aware of it and she had a sort of treatment with internal washing that involved sponges ( that sounds cruell if you ask me). So , if she could have internal treatment she couldn't have been a virgin, could she? The court was anxious because of the lack of a heir but Amalia had made peace with herself, deciding that it was Otto's fault, since ( in her opinion) God has placed a curse among Ludwig's children as a result of his unholy lifestyle :ermm:.....Of course when Ludwig ( Luitpold's son ) was born, she didn't know what so say, but she kept on believing AND declaring that it was still Otto's fault since he was doubly cursed: as a Wittelsbach and as Ludwig's son.....( not a nice thing to say about your husband at all:lol:)
As for the horseriding, since no one knew exactly what was going on ( her exact condition was identified 50 years later thaks to her medical records) they just decided to put the blame to her poor horses I guess (after all they couldn't answer back).

Vasillisos Markos 02-25-2010 04:32 PM


Wow, how did you come by this information? Amazing stuff.

snowflower 02-25-2010 05:01 PM

:previous: I am reading a great book these days. It's titled " A Danish woman in Otto's court" and it is a wonderful work. The book is a part of Christiane Luth's personal diaries, notes and letters to her family. Christiane was a Danish from Holstein who got married in 1839 to a German priest named Luth. Right after their marriage, Luth was offered a job: he was asked by the Grand Duke of Oldenburg if he would like to go to Greece and be Amalia's personal priest and confessor. He accepted and they both settled to Greece for some years (about 10 I think). All these years, Christiane was keeping notes in her diary about the Greek political and social life ( as it appeared to her eyes), incidents from the court and the Bavarian/German/ Western European community and family news. It is great and quite funny and it is also useful to other reasons apart royalty , since it is an insight at the then Athenian society and shows how difficult was life for a Danish woman in Greece ( I particularly liked the part when she saved money to buy shoes because she was invited to a ball at the palace and in Athenian shops she could only find " tsarouchia" because the other types of shoes should be ordered in advance to import them from Western Europe:lol:)

The funny thing is she later returned to Greece ( the family moved to Copenhagen after they left Greece) because since her son was fluent in Greece(he was born and raised here) he served for a time as George's secretary. I guess she was one of those lucky ones who managed to she History written in front of their eyes....:flowers:

jonnydep 02-26-2010 06:43 PM


Originally Posted by MAfan (Post 1054735)
I'm not sure that horse riding prevents a woman from having children; if not, how could Empress Elisabeth of Austria had four children, considering that she used to spend a lot of time riding?

thats quite true MAfan, but i do understand that her mother in law Archduchess Sophie often rebuked The Empress about going riding whilst with child. this is understandable, for if she had fallen, this may bring about a miscarriage !

Jaya 03-01-2010 01:25 AM


Originally Posted by snowflower (Post 1054778)
...Amalia suffered from a condition ( the name I don't remember it now), and had a form of internal dysplasia, which made it very difficult to have physical relationship with Otto and impossible to conceive.

What you are describing is a type of cancer-dyspalasia and so is hyperplasia.I think it would have been quite unhygienic to insert sponges into the uterine cavity ... Ye gods- I have also heard stories more credible stories that Otto was impotent.But hardly anyone has the facts.

Vlaha Karatsokaros 03-01-2010 05:08 AM


Originally Posted by Jaya (Post 1055734)
... Ye gods- I have also heard stories more credible stories that Otto was impotent.But hardly anyone has the facts.

From all the above accounts, it seems that Amalia, apart from any possible anatomic problems, was suffering from what is called anaphrodisia or in lay terms, frigidity.
Insofar as Otto was concerned, all the Greek literature abounds in vague comments about his impotence. However, this word has two meanings, the layman's, that is, a man's inability to achieve and sustain penile tumescence and the medical, that is, inability to produce adequare count of healthy spermatozoa capable of fertilizing a woman's egg. Which of the two meanings these authors were implying is not clear.
At any rate, the way I perceive it from all these comments is that neither Amalia nor Otto were interested in intercourse and possibly the marriage remained uncosummated. As it is known, unconsummated marriage is a solid reason for annulment particularly in the Catholic Church. So the fact that Otto never sought that suggests that he had no sexual interest.

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