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-   -   King Alexander I (1893-1920), Aspasia Manos (1896-1972) and dau Alexandra (1921-1993) (http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f198/king-alexander-i-1893-1920-aspasia-manos-1896-1972-and-dau-alexandra-1921-1993-a-26939.html)

snowflower 02-07-2010 04:39 PM

King Alexander I (1893-1920), Aspasia Manos (1896-1972) and dau Alexandra (1921-1993)
 
Hi everyone! I ve noticed that there was no thread about King Alexander in the forum and it's such a pity because he had a quite interesting life, especially after his ascecion o the Greek Throne. His reign during those turbulent years of the war in Asia Minor , his love and marriage to a commoner and his sudden death always had an impression on me!

Lia 02-07-2010 05:46 PM

I agree with you, i have read a book about him few years back, not sure it was an accurate biography (its possible the author had many fictional dialogues) but still very very interesting.

Vasillisos Markos 02-07-2010 05:53 PM

Alexander was Queen Sophia's favorite son and not being allowed to return to the country when he was dying nearly killed her. Alexander's daughter, born after his death, later married the King of Yugoslavia. One fascinating fact is that Alexander assumed the throne before his elder brother, was succeeded by his father, and then Alexander's elder brother took the throne when their father, Constantine I, abdicated once again.

Vlaha Karatsokaros 02-07-2010 06:23 PM

One question I have that, I guess, is difficult to be answered, is the reason behind King Constantine's decision to elevate Mme Manos by royal decree to HRH The Princess Aspasia and specifically:
1. Did he do it in order to go against prime minister Eleftherios Venizelos who insisted on the marriage being kept morganatic?
2. Did King Constantine feel that it would be embarrassing for a king's daughter not to be a princess of the blood?
3. Or was it Queen Sophia who insisted on that (I have heard also this version)?
4. Could he technically elevate Alexandra to HRH Princess Alexandra of Greece and Denmark, without prior elevation of her mother to similar style/title [and has there been a similar case in European Royal History]?
5. Whereas females were not allowed anyway to ascend to the Greek Throne, at that time, could King Constantine elevate [in the Battenberg precedent] Mme Manos to just HSH Princess Aspasia [without of Greece and Denmark], in which case the issue would have become HSH Princess Alexandra?
For historical reasons, I would love to hear th opinion of someone with insight in Greek Constitutional Law or Gotha matters

snowflower 02-08-2010 12:44 PM

I ve always wondered if Alexander hadn't died so young and was made the" legal" King of Greece how history might have turned different . I m sure that if Venizelos had the opportunity he would try to achieve it. By the way did you know that Veizelos was so Much against Alexander's relationship with Aspasia? He wanted to marry him to Princess Mary of Great Britain in order to secure his place in Greek politics even further.....

EmpressRouge 02-08-2010 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by snowflower (Post 1049187)
I ve always wondered if Alexander hadn't died so young and was made the" legal" King of Greece how history might have turned different.

That is an interesting thought. Since his older brother George did not have any children, Alexander would have still probably have taken the throne after his father and brother, following the order of succession. Could he have had enough power to allow for his marriage to Aspasia recognized and given full dynastic rights to Alexandra or any other children they might have had? Since Queen Frederika's meddling in politics is sometimes blamed for the downfall of the Greek monarchy, it is definitely interesting to guess what would have happened if she hadn't been in such a high position of power.

Vasillisos Markos 02-08-2010 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vlaha Karatsokaros (Post 1049002)
One question I have that, I guess, is difficult to be answered, is the reason behind King Constantine's decision to elevate Mme Manos by royal decree to HRH The Princess Aspasia and specifically:
5. Whereas females were not allowed anyway to ascend to the Greek Throne, at that time, could King Constantine elevate [in the Battenberg precedent] Mme Manos to just HSH Princess Aspasia [without of Greece and Denmark], in which case the issue would have become HSH Princess Alexandra?

I do not know the answer to your questions, although I recall reading that Queen Sophia pushed through a law for the king to recognize Alexander's marriage. But I have never read that females were kept from the Greek throne? Was the Salic law applied in Greece?

snowflower 02-08-2010 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vasillisos Markos (Post 1049218)
I do not know the answer to your questions, although I recall reading that Queen Sophia pushed through a law for the king to recognize Alexander's marriage. But I have never read that females were kept from the Greek throne? Was the Salic law applied in Greece?

Females were not exactly kept from the throne. When the National Assembly declared Prince Willem of Denmark as King of Greece as George I it was also decided that "in the line of succesion with be all the legitime descendants of George I who are Greek in nationality and Easten Orthodox in religion, with preference over males issues"( "προτιμουμενων των αρρενων" ) But this was a little vague, as it did not clear whether it was semi salic or male primogeniture.They (the Greek royals) considered it semi salic until 1949 when the then Prime Minister declared that the true meaning of this article was with preference over the males issues of the reigning king, turning it to male primogeniture ( the reason behind this was the attempt of paul and frederika to push prince peter as back as possible to the succesion line) So under the Greek law Alexandra should be in the line on position before her marriage somewhere. The problem was whether her parents marriage was legal or not. Under the Greek law, it was legal because Alexander didn't need permission to marry someone since he was an adult and the constitution didn't prevent marriages between commoner and royals. Under the family law, however they needed to have permission from the king and Constantine never granted one. But on the other hand , Alexander was the King of the Hellenes then even if serving in his father's place. It's quite complicated I think.

Vasillisos Markos 02-08-2010 04:43 PM

Thank you for the explanation. I had read that Constantine, when he returned to the throne, treated Alexander's time as a regency which might have been pointed to, along with the morgantic implications, as an additional reason not to recognize Alexandra's claim to the throne.

snowflower 02-08-2010 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vasillisos Markos (Post 1049237)
Thank you for the explanation. I had read that Constantine, when he returned to the throne, treated Alexander's time as a regency which might have been pointed to, along with the morgantic implications, as an additional reason not to recognize Alexandra's claim to the throne.

His reign was a regency, thats how is regarded by the greek royal family and the historians. In his gravestone it is written " Alexander, prince of Greece , Prinds til Danmark, reigned instead of his father from 1917 to 1920". But for me, Alexandra should have been the Diadoch, upon George II 's ascecion and not Paul , because since Alexander was reigning when he got married and had all the powers of the crown in his hands ( his father was powerless during this period) he definately had the power to grant permission to his marriage with Aspasia.

Vasillisos Markos 02-08-2010 05:05 PM

I agree but what about the morgantic marriage? Or do you consider Constantine's 1922 elevation of Alexandra and her mother to royal status to overcome that hurdle?

This is another fascinating "what if" of history-- What if Alexandra took the throne instead of Paul? Would there still be a Greek monarchy?

snowflower 02-08-2010 05:20 PM

well if Alexander had the regnal powers in his hands he could have made his daughter a princess with full rights ( with a little backing from politicians of course). But he necer lived long enough to see her born let alone declaring her princess.

I don't know how the history could have changed. George II would still be exiled and has returned. and died chidless But the minute Alexandra would get married to another royal, she would probably renounce every succesion right , just as the other greek princesses (with the exception of Princess Marie) On the other hand, the greeks might like the idea of Alexandra as a Queen, since her mother was a Greek and her father a well liked and sympathised King and thus she might be permitted to reign this her husband as prince consort. We could never tell I am afraid.

Another thing that is interesting was Venizelos idea of a marriage between princess Mary and Alexander. How ON EARTH , did he came up with this. I doubt George VI and QMary would ever accept this marriage....

snowflower 02-09-2010 06:39 AM

4 Attachment(s)
Here are a few photos (Flickr, imageshack, gettyimages) :
1)Alexandra while in London
2)A painting of Alexander and Aspasia
3)Alexander as King
4)Aspasia

Vlaha Karatsokaros 02-09-2010 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by snowflower (Post 1049357)
Here are a few photos (Flickr, imageshack, gettyimages) :
1)Alexandra while in London

On the picture above she writes "To darling ------ with love". Can you fill in the rest?

Quote:

Originally Posted by snowflower (Post 1049255)
..........Another thing that is interesting was Venizelos idea of a marriage between princess Mary and Alexander. How ON EARTH , did he came up with this. I doubt George VI and QMary would ever accept this marriage....

I would agree that King George and Queen Mary would have never accepted, considering that the situation in Greece was extremely unstable (if not unsafe) at the time. Otherwise, Alexander was king and a very handsome young man who enjoyed tremendous popularity. As to your question about the idea of Eleftherios Venizelos (EV): Yes, it is true that he was fantasizing about such an eventuality.
Why? Because Venizelos had developed very close ties with prime minister Lloyd George and a strong Alliance with Great Britain. Remember, IT was the time that Greece expanded greatly with the help of the Entente. Thus, EV was hoping to further the ties between Greece and Great Britain with yet another bond, ie possible marriage of Alexander and The Princess Royal.

CarolinaLandgrave 02-09-2010 08:43 AM

Princess Alexandra and King Alexander were both very nice looking

snowflower 02-09-2010 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vlaha Karatsokaros (Post 1049362)
On the picture above she writes "To darling ------ with love". Can you fill in the rest?

It is " To darling mougey with love ". It was a pet name for her mother. Aspasia was "mougey"and Alexandra was "pougey".

EmpressRouge 02-09-2010 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vlaha Karatsokaros (Post 1049365)
I would agree that King George and Queen Mary would have never accepted, considering that the situation in Greece was extremely unstable (if not unsafe) at the time. Otherwise, Alexander was king and a very handsome young man who enjoyed tremendous popularity. As to your question about the idea of Eleftherios Venizelos (EV): Yes, it is true that he was fantasizing about such an eventuality.
Why? Because Venizelos had developed very close ties with prime minister Lloyd George and a strong Alliance with Great Britain. Remember, IT was the time that Greece expanded greatly with the help of the Entente. Thus, EV was hoping to further the ties between Greece and Great Britain with yet another bond, ie possible marriage of Alexander and The Princess Royal.

Is there a similar reason why the engagement of Princess Alexandra of Fife (King George and Queen Mary's niece) to Prince Christopher of Greece (Alexander's uncle) was broken?

Vasillisos Markos 02-09-2010 09:33 PM

I had read the families disapproved of the liaison but no reason was given.

snowflower 02-10-2010 07:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vasillisos Markos (Post 1049604)
I had read the families disapproved of the liaison but no reason was given.

The reason was mainly financial because Alexandra's parents didn't think that the Greek Royals could support a decent lifestyle for her. Moreover , when the Duke of Fife discovered that this secret liaison was promoted and wished by Princess Toria ( Alexandra's aunt) while she was supposed to chaperone her, he and Louise became furious with the liberty Toria had taken concerning their daughter and ended the liaison at once. As Prince Christopher said, they were heart broken for a while , but when they met again at Marina's wedding , they would recall these incindents like two good friends and would laugh over their "passion "and the idea that the marriage would have been possible....

When it comes to Princess Mary I doubt that her parents would have even considered the possibility of a marriage with Alexander. First of all , it was documented that they believed John's epilepsy was partly a result of intemarriage so they weren't keen on letting their children marry reltives ( when once someone proposed the Swedish princesses Astrid and Martha as potential matches for Edward, his parents said immediately no, because they thought it too risky). They prefered to see their children married to membes of the British nobility. Moreover , I doubt they would put at risk their daughter's well being for politics at a time when marriage alliances had become to decline as a habit . Besides , the diplomacy at that point wasn't exactly stable ( Britain after a while sided with Kemal ) so things might turn very difficult for Mary if this marriage ever occured.

Vasillisos Markos 02-10-2010 09:59 PM

Snowflower,

Many thanks for the information. How did you discover this? Was it found in a biography?


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