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-   -   Ex Kings in a Republic: are they considered as "former Head of State" (http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f164/ex-kings-in-a-republic-are-they-considered-as-former-head-of-state-24200.html)

roimat 08-21-2009 04:55 AM

Ex Kings in a Republic: are they considered as "former Head of State"
 
Living the Greek "reality" about the Greek Royal Family, i would like to know what is the position of the Royal families in other countries where also have now a Republic, such as Serbia, Bulgaria and Romania. I know the activities of the Royals there, but i'd like to know what are they position regarding to the official State. For example, i'd like King Constantine to be treated in Greece as a former Head of State, as all the former Presidents of the Republic are been treated, but that doesn't happens in the revanchist Greek State...

BELTRANEJA 08-21-2009 06:56 AM

An ex-king in a republic has no treatment, because the form of government to which he belonged have disappeared or changed. The forms of the republic AND of monarchy state are not compatible by definition.
A different case is that the former King is integrated into the structure of the republic, that is:
A: To waive the defense of the ideals of a monarchical state.
B: To waive claim to future claims against the state Republican.
Since that time the former King has access to the policy, he could be Prime Minister as Simeone..

There are also republics have laws that prevent former member of the royal houses havenīt access to public office, and although they has been integrated into the Republic.

Iluvbertie 08-21-2009 07:13 AM

Each case would have to be dealt with on a case by case basis.

BELTRANEJA 08-21-2009 11:22 AM

excuseme I have written it bad, ..it is "There are also republics have laws that prevent former member of the royal houses can not access to public office, although they has been integrated into the Republic. "

I agree with you

Odette 08-21-2009 12:38 PM

Former Kings do not represent a country and as such they can no longer be
considered past heads of States.
The King of Greece although very close to the Danish, Spanish and British royals is never invited to State affaires.
In weddings and such he is seated with family members as a member of that royal house.

BELTRANEJA 08-21-2009 05:37 PM

I agree with you Odette.El case of Constantine, he has no treatment in Greece, he is invited to celebrations of Royals as member of a Royal House but he doesnīt represent a State.The Greek state has not recognized the status of former head of state,this status is recognized to the former Presidents of the Republic.

In Romania I have read that Michael has recognized the status of Ex-Head of State.Simeone is former primer minister.

roimat 08-21-2009 07:55 PM

I don't think that you undertand fully what i was saying. I said exactly what BELTRANEJA siad about Romania and King Michail and the relation with the State there. Also, in Serbia, Prince Alexander is recognised as the heir to the Throne, even there is no Throne in Serbia. And he is treated as a prince. This is an excample how Greece should treat his Royals.
I didn't mean that the ex royals must be treated as politicians. I ment that an ex King is also a former Heas of the State, even if this State now has a Republic. If some people want to cut History in the midle, they must therfor accept that all the govenmentsin Monarchy were false.
And a corection: in the Intenational Olympic Comitee, King Constantine represents Greece.

BELTRANEJA 08-24-2009 05:10 PM

The story says that Constantine was King of Greece and Head of State.The past can not be changed, the men can not change the past..The Olympic committee is an organization independent of the politics ... but the internal committees of the countries, these are very politicized.

Bones 08-24-2009 10:48 PM

In similar vein, the former Empress Carlota of Mexico, after returning to her native Belgium where she was effectively under house arrest because of her mental illness, was still treated as Empress of Mexico by all her attendants and addressed as "Your Majesty" by all visitors. This was also not just to placate a mad woman. During World War I the Kaiser had a message posted at the gates to her estate warning all German soldiers not to molest the property because it belonged to the Empress of Mexico, the sister-in-law of their Austrian ally Emperor Francis Joseph.
:belgiumflag2: :mexicoflag:
I would also point out that originally the Republic of China treated their last Emperor, not only as a former head-of-state, but still as an Emperor within the confines of the Forbidden City. I think the actual wording was that he was to be treated as a visiting or foreign sovereign. It is said that republican officials would come to see him, bow their head as they stood before him and read out their official business in western attire on behalf of the republic and then leave the room, don traditional Chinese gown, return and kowtow to the Emperor in a personal capacity on their own.
:chinaflag:

roimat 08-25-2009 08:43 AM

Nice informations Bones,but those took place a long time ago. Nowadays thinks are different. My post came up from the impolite act of the Greek State to his ex King. In Romania, the ex King Mihail has a pension, he lives in the Elisabeta Palace, the same goes on with Prince Alexander of Serbia and ex King Simeno of Bulgaria. The "european" Greek State still insistes to deny any relation and conection to the King. For them he was good only to help them for the Olympic Games...

BELTRANEJA 08-25-2009 04:11 PM

Michael of Romania signed a document renouncing future claims against the state to exchange recived by it, the status of Former Head of State.
The status of former Head of state was conditioned to renounce of future claims against State,renounce to defend the monarchy State.

roimat 08-25-2009 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BELTRANEJA (Post 984049)
Michael of Romania signed a document renouncing future claims against the state to exchange recived by it, the status of Former Head of State.
The status of former Head of state was conditioned to renounce of future claims against State,renounce to defend the monarchy State.

Interesting information, i didn't know that. But i suppose that the contition at the former Eastern Europe countries,after the colapse of comunism, wasn't very stable, that's why they made him sign that.
In Greece, we suposed to have stable Democracy 35 years now. The Constitution cannot change the form of the regime from Republic to Monarchy. So there is no danger and no reason for King Constantine to sign anything...

BELTRANEJA 08-25-2009 06:17 PM

What is the status of a former head of state in a republic?
a-an annuity
b-Attend official state ceremonies
and has changed of it the King has that renounce to his form of think, to his ideology.
A man can not renounce his ideology, because ideology is something internal to the person that is not available for others, everyone can think what you want, nobody can force your mind to think otherwise ...
If Greece would have a law whose content says that Constantine would have the Status of Former Head of State , but has changed he should renounce to his ideology, this must be accepted by Constantine. I think Constantine will not accept it because he would put a price on his ideology.

Odette 08-26-2009 05:14 PM

Belt. King Constantine has never abdicated his rights to the throne.
He refused to adopt a surname to please the Greek Government which would then treat him as a Greek subject and issue him and his family a passport.
No one expects the King to denounce anything and the last thing the King needs to do is ask for a stipend from the government in exchange for him denouncing this or that.
Both the King and Queen can live comfortably wherever they choose to and be free to come and go as they please.
Look at the French, Italian, German royals. They all continue to think and believe whatever they wish to and no country treats them as ex heads of state or contribute to their lifelihood.

roimat 08-27-2009 07:14 AM

In French, Italy and German, there are no living former Kings dear Odette. So there is no similarity between those royals and King Constantine. Where there is still a living ex King, as in Romania or Bulgaria, they are treated as former Head of State.
But even in France, Italy and Germany, and also in Portugal, those royals are treated as royals, even if there is no Monarchy there. But in Greece, they say that "there are no Greek princes" because we haven't Monarchy. This point of view is just an ignorance of History. And it shows the weakness of the political system in Greece, which is still afraid of the King.
A King abdicates his throne only for his heir. It's different to abdicate and to give up your rights to the Throne. But if we speak that someone must give up his rights to the Throne, we confess that there is a Throne:-).
The Monarchy was abolished, but he keeps his rights. When we speak about abdication, we must also speak for a heir. Or else, it's just an inappropriate term. In that point of view you cannot, in the Greek language, a King as an ex King or former king, cause you have to have a current one, to call someone ex! That's what stands in Greek at last...

BELTRANEJA 08-28-2009 10:08 AM

The communists in Russia when they took power they banned the history ... for years past was unknown, all references to the old royal house removed, books, paintings, monuments related to them destroyed .. but years passed and the communism also ended ... and story was imposed in Russia .., and the story that the Communists tried of delete it returned ...
there were people who fled Russia and took pictures and memories of the old royal house, and other European royal houses kept photos and memories, pictures of the old royal family .. They are the ones who have remained important part of Russian history.
and thanks to them, they found the remains of the former Russian royal family and were held official funerals ...
Russian Communists thought the story could be eliminated with the laws, but they forgot that the past is unavailable to men ..
Constantine was King of Greece, it is to say by story.
He is former King of Greece, former Head of State and if the Greek politicians and others believe that this was not so that King Constantine was not Head of State and was not King of Greece .. they are denying the story .. and if they deny the story also they deny the Acropolis and all Greeks monuments, because they too are history.

Constantine did not need a law that recognized the status of Former Head of State, or politicians who say that he was Head of State, nor sign a document .... because he has it, history says it,he was Ex Head of Status ...

Odette 08-29-2009 04:47 PM

:previous:During the Olympic Games in Athens, the President opened the Presidential Palace (previously a home of the Greek Royals) for the heads of State for a garden party. The King and Queen were present.
What may be a polite gesture by some Greek governments to treat the King with the respect his old position warrants may be anathema to a left wing Prime Minister who may wish to make a statement to his constituents.
Less than 3 years after the referendum that abolished the Monarchy and during the wedding ceremony in Stockholm the King was delegated to the fourth row while the Queen as first cousin of K Carl Gustaf sat on the third row.
During the wedding of Prince Charles with Lady Diana, there was a row about who would sit where and since there was an official representative of the Greek government who represented Greece, they moved the King and Queen and they sat with other family members rather than heads/ex heads of State.
It makes IMHO no difference what protocol is followed if any. The King will remain King whether they add an EX or previous or whatever before his title and for the Monarchists he will always be a King, regardless.:flowers:

IRIS1983 09-12-2009 09:52 AM

A king does not need a status in a republic, this is ridiculous ... the republics and monarchies are oncompatible, the opposite of a republic is a monarchy, and conversely.....Constantine wonīt swear a republican constitution by a passport. ..

roimat 09-16-2009 03:08 AM

But both Monarchy and Republic are Constitutional Regimes. They are not the one opposite to the other. Do you imagine, if Greece some day had Monarchy again, that the State could say to all its ex Presidents that "we don't recognize you as ex Presidents, you didn't exist", as they say nowadays to Constanstine?

Sereta 09-16-2009 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roimat (Post 992173)
But both Monarchy and Republic are Constitutional Regimes. They are not the one opposite to the other. Do you imagine, if Greece some day had Monarchy again, that the State could say to all its ex Presidents that "we don't recognize you as ex Presidents, you didn't exist", as they say nowadays to Constanstine?

Hm, that's a good point roimat!


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