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espejor 05-31-2009 12:24 PM

Royals Converted To Other Religions
 
Hello!! Post here Royals converted to other religion like:

-Queen Victoria Eugenia of Spain: She was protestant, and in a very humbling ceremony for her, she converted to Catholicism in 1906 before her wedding with Alfonso XIII.

-Queen Sofia of Spain: She was orthodox and her wedding consisted in four wedding (a catholic ceremony, an orthodox ceremony, a Spanish civil ceremony and a Greek civil ceremony).

-His mother, Queen Federica of Greece, she was protestant and converted to Orthodox religion to marry with Pablo of Greece.

-Empress Alexandra of Russia: She was protestant and she converted to orthodox religion to marry with Nicolas II.

-Aga Khan IV's wife (Begum Inaara): She is German and she converted to muslin religion to marry with Aga Khan IV.

Do you know more Royals converted? :D

Regards!!

Lumutqueen 05-31-2009 12:32 PM

Princess Mary converted to Lutheran from presbytarian when she married CP Frederik.
Princess Marie converted to Lutheran from Roman Catholic when she married Prince Joachim.
Princess Marie-Chantal was accepted into the Greek Orthodox Church.
x

HMTLove23 05-31-2009 12:58 PM

Autumn Kelly converted to Protestant from Catholic to marry Peter Phillips
Lord Nicholas Windsor converted to Catholic

MAfan 05-31-2009 01:30 PM

I guess:
Queen Anne Marie of Greece, from Lutheran to Greek Orthodox
Grand Duchess Viktoria Ferodovna of Russia, form Lutheran to Russian Orthodox
Princess Irene of Savoy, Duchess of Aosta, from Greek Orthodox to Catholic
Queen Sofia of Greece, from Lutheran to Greek Orthodox (and because of her conversion her brother Emperor Wilhelm II had forbidden her to enter in Germany)
King Henri IV of France, from Huguonot to Catholic ("Paris vaut bien une messe", "Paris is well worth a mass")
Queen Elena of Italy, from (?Russian?) Orthodox to Catholic
The Duchess of Kent, from Anglican to Catholic
Empress Maria Fedorovna of Russia, from Lutheran to Russian Orthodox

King Charles II of Englandm from Anglican to Catholic
Queen Christina of Sweden, from Lutheran to Catholic
Duchess Irene of Parma, from Protestant to Catholic (with crisis in the Netherlands because of her conversion, 1964)
Queen Natalia of Serbia, from Orthodox to Catholic
Edward Windsor, Lord Downpatrick, from Anglican to Catholic

espejor 05-31-2009 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MAfan (Post 945743)
I guess:
Queen Anne Marie of Greece, from Lutheran to Greek Orthodox
Grand Duchess Viktoria Ferodovna of Russia, form Lutheran to Russian Orthodox
Princess Irene of Savoy, Duchess of Aosta, from Greek Orthodox to Catholic
Queen Sofia of Greece, from Lutheran to Greek Orthodox (and because of her conversion her brother Emperor Wilhelm II had forbidden her to enter in Germany)
King Henri IV of France, from Huguonot to Catholic ("Paris vaut bien une messe", "Paris is well worth a mass")
Queen Elena of Italy, from (?Russian?) Orthodox to Catholic
The Duchess of Kent, from Anglican to Catholic
Empress Maria Fedorovna of Russia, from Lutheran to Russian Orthodox

Quote:

Originally Posted by lumutqueen (Post 945726)
Princess Mary converted to Lutheran from presbytarian when she married CP Frederik.
Princess Marie converted to Lutheran from Roman Catholic when she married Prince Joachim.
Princess Marie-Chantal was accepted into the Greek Orthodox Church.
x

How could I forget them? :nonono:

Regards!

Next Star 06-10-2009 05:53 PM

Queen Noor of Jordan was protestant before she married the late King Hussein and converted to the nation of Islam and became muslim.

IslandDweller 07-07-2009 10:19 AM

Queen Marie of Bavaria (Marie of Prussia; 1825-1889) converted to Catholicism from Lutheranism.

It's also interesting the royals who did NOT convert when changing countries. Astrid of Sweden remained a Lutheran when marrying into the Catholic Belgian royal family. King Ferdinand I of Romania (born a prince of Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen) remained a Catholic when designated the heir to the Romanian throne. All the Romanian government stipulated was that his children be raised Orthodox. He was excommunicated for this, but I believe this was lifted. His wife, Marie of Edinburgh, was christened Church of England, but confirmed a Lutheran after her father inherited the Duchy of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha. She also did not become Orthodox, and apparently worshipped in the Anglican faith of her birth.

The Danish royals evidently had liberal policies regarding inter-faith marriages. Marie of Orleans (1865-1909) remained a Catholic after marrying Prince Valdemar of Denmark. It was agreed at the outset that sons of the marriage would be raised in the father's faith and daughters in the mother's, a not uncommon arrangement in the nineteenth century. As it happened, they had four sons and a daughter, who married Felix of Bourbon-Parma and became the mother of "Queen" Anne of Romania. This marriage proved more complicated on the religious issue. Anne would not convert to Orthodoxy when she married ex-King Michael, and he would not consent to his children being raised as Catholics, which was the only condition under which the Pope would sanction the marriage. Both families lobbied Rome unsuccessfully, and Prince Xavier of Bourbon-Parma - Anne's uncle and the head of her family - forbade Anne's parents to attend a wedding that the Church of Rome was against. The couple was married in the Orthodox faith, though Wikipedia says that they were allowed a Catholic ceremony in the 1960s.

MAfan 07-07-2009 10:55 AM

A couple of corrections:
- according to the memoirs of Queen Maria Josè of Italy, sister in law of Astrid, she married Leopold as Lutheran, but after some time she converted and became Catholic;
- The father of Queen Anne of Romania was Prince Renè of Bourbon-Parma, not Felix; Felix was the husband of Grand Duchess Charlotte of Luxembourg.

Another sovereign who didn't convert when he became King of another country was Prince (later Tsar) Ferdinand of Bulgaria, that is a Orthodox country: he was Catholic, and remained Catholic; he married a Catholic Princess, Maria Luisa of Bourbon-Parma, who remained Catholic too; but their children were raised as Orthodoxes.

Now I wonder: did Queen Giovanna, Queen Margarita, and the present Princesses of Bulgaria (Miriam, Rosario, Carla, Maria) convert from Catholic to Orthodox?

IslandDweller 07-08-2009 10:03 AM

Whoops! Thanks, MAFan. Careless errors on my part, regarding the Bourbon Parma names.

I've never read anywhere that Astrid converted, but I'll take your word for it.

My understanding has always been that Queen Giovanna never got around to converting, and that when she had her children baptised Orthodox, she was reneging on the deal she had made with Rome to have the Vatican sanction her marriage.

susan alicia 07-08-2009 10:30 AM

the catholic church and the (greek) orthodox church "accept" each other, so I think there is officially little converting to do.

Maxima remains a catholic but her children will be raised as protestants.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MAfan (Post 962854)
A couple of corrections:
- according to the memoirs of Queen Maria Josè of Italy, sister in law of Astrid, she married Leopold as Lutheran, but after some time she converted and became Catholic;
- The father of Queen Anne of Romania was Prince Renè of Bourbon-Parma, not Felix; Felix was the husband of Grand Duchess Charlotte of Luxembourg.

Another sovereign who didn't convert when he became King of another country was Prince (later Tsar) Ferdinand of Bulgaria, that is a Orthodox country: he was Catholic, and remained Catholic; he married a Catholic Princess, Maria Luisa of Bourbon-Parma, who remained Catholic too; but their children were raised as Orthodoxes.

Now I wonder: did Queen Giovanna, Queen Margarita, and the present Princesses of Bulgaria (Miriam, Rosario, Carla, Maria) convert from Catholic to Orthodox?


emmeleia 07-08-2009 11:51 AM

What about Alexia of Greece? Her husband Carlos Morales and their children?

sgl 07-08-2009 01:52 PM

I believe that Alexia, Carlos, and the children are Greek Orthodox. I thought that the christenings have taken place in a Greek Orthodox church, as well as their wedding.

susan alicia 07-08-2009 02:43 PM

:previous: yes, the children of Alexia are baptised Greek orthodox,, from the thread greek royal family baptism of Amelia
[DNF] Fotoarchief Denieuwsfoto

amedea 07-08-2009 02:54 PM

Catholic church does NOT accept orthodox churches and in fact its diplomacy worked hard to keep the romanian and bulgarian royals catholic, using a lot excommunication since they had great problems. (It is true however that the doctrinal difference between the two is little; so conversions are not complicated even from the rythual point of view; and so they usually accept weddings celebrated by the other church, if there is a previous permission, but conversions remain a huge problem for both)
as far as Bulgaria is concerned:
1- the baptism of crownprince Boris of Bulgaria in the orthodox church (when he was already 2 years old) was a first crysis that upset not only the Holy See but also the very catholic Bourbon-Parma family, the family of his mother; however I think that all the siblings of boris were grown up catholic
2- as alredy said in others post the Holy See had obtained that the children of Queen Giovanna would be catholic and that there would not be an orthodox wedding: at the arrival in Bulgaria the couple received an orthodox "blessing" that was already too much for the catholic church and then at the birth of the crown prince he was christened an orthodox and that caused a great crysis. The then nuncius to Sofia who had to deal with these matters was Angelo Roncalli who became many years later pope Johannes XXIII.
3- Queen Giovanna remained always catholic and as a widow she entered the third order of st Francis, being buried in the Assisi Abbey's cemetery; I think that her approach to her new country and new family's religion was in some way ecumenic (something very distant from the position of the church of that times), as I never heard that she felt bad for Boris' choises.

salma 07-08-2009 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Next Star (Post 950805)
Queen Noor of Jordan was protestant before she married the late King Hussein and converted to the nation of Islam and became muslim.

Too Princess Muna.

susan alicia 07-08-2009 03:16 PM

off topic now but

I speak out of experience, as a Greek othodox who occasionally goes to a Catholic Church I am allowed by the priest to receive holy communion (I asked).

Quote:

Originally Posted by amedea (Post 963314)
Catholic church does NOT accept orthodox churches and in fact its diplomacy worked hard to keep the romanian and bulgarian royals catholic, using a lot excommunication since they had great problems. (It is true however that the doctrinal difference between the two is little; so conversions are not complicated even from the rythual point of view; and so they usually accept weddings celebrated by the other church, if there is a previous permission, but conversions remain a huge problem for both)
as far as Bulgaria is concerned:
1- the baptism of crownprince Boris of Bulgaria in the orthodox church (when he was already 2 years old) was a first crysis that upset not only the Holy See but also the very catholic Bourbon-Parma family, the family of his mother; however I think that all the siblings of boris were grown up catholic
2- as alredy said in others post the Holy See had obtained that the children of Queen Giovanna would be catholic and that there would not be an orthodox wedding: at the arrival in Bulgaria the couple received an orthodox "blessing" that was already too much for the catholic church and then at the birth of the crown prince he was christened an orthodox and that caused a great crysis. The then nuncius to Sofia who had to deal with these matters was Angelo Roncalli who became many years later pope Johannes XXIII.
3- Queen Giovanna remained always catholic and as a widow she entered the third order of st Francis, being buried in the Assisi Abbey's cemetery; I think that her approach to her new country and new family's religion was in some way ecumenic (something very distant from the position of the curch of that times), as I never heard that she felt bad for Boris' choises.


amedea 07-08-2009 03:44 PM

your personal experience is made possible, if I am correct, by the papal decretum "Orientalium Ecclesiarum" that dates back only to 1964, the very contreversial period of the Vatican Council II. And this text make very little concessions, very far from recognising the orthodox churches.

LadyLeana 07-09-2009 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IslandDweller (Post 963220)
I've never read anywhere that Astrid converted, but I'll take your word for it.

When she married, Astrid had to promise to raise her children in the Catholic faith. When her daughter Josephine-Charlotte started asking questions about Jesus and the bible, she realised she couldn't answer those questions, because she didn't know anything about the faith her daughter was learning about, she didn't know which answers to give. She studied up for quite a while before converting, too.

Also interesting, is that the first King of the Belgians, Leopold I, never converted to Catholicism (not to my knowledge anyway), but when he became King he had to promise to raise his children Catholic, because the Belgians didn't want a Protestant King/line of Kings.

rop81 07-09-2009 08:25 PM

What about Queen Silvia of Sweden, was she a protestant when she met Carl-Gustav or was she catholic and had to convert before the wedding?

IslandDweller 07-13-2009 10:53 AM

According to at least one newspaper account from the time of her wedding, Queen Silvia was already a Protestant. She was said to have several Lutheran ministers in her father's family tree, which could explain her parents' decision to have her christened in that faith, since her mother was almost certainly Catholic.

Kaatje 07-24-2009 01:14 PM

Is keeping an original faith accepted today? For example: A Catholic princess of Belgium wanted to marry the Lutheran crown prince of Denmark. I'm not entirely certain, but I believe that there is a clause in the constitution that says members of the royal family must be Lutheran. If the princess did not want to give up her faith, would the marriage be allowed? Or, would parliament issue a special law (as they do for immediate citizenship of spouses of Danish royalty) for that princess if she agreed to raise her children in the Lutheran faith?

Sereta 07-28-2009 06:03 PM

I think she would have to convert.

MARG 07-29-2009 05:28 AM

:previous: As indeed did CP Mary . . . . . . and she was only a Presbyterian! :whistling:

Biri 07-29-2009 06:11 PM

Prince Henri of Denmark converted from Catholicism to Lutheranism before marrying Queen Margrethe.

Next Star 08-15-2009 01:23 AM

Countess Alexandra Christina of Fredriksbourg former wife of Prince Joachim of Denmark and Princess of Denmark was Angelican before she coverted to Lutheran.

Biri 06-01-2010 12:07 PM

Princess Khaliya Aga Khan converted to Islam from Christianity before marrying Prince Hussein.

As for Queen Noor, I read that her parents didn't educate her in any concrete religion, encouraging her to choose her own spiritual way. And that Islam was the first religion which interested her.

Princess Shams Pahlavi converted from Islam to Catholicism.

Lumutqueen 06-01-2010 12:14 PM

Lady Marina-Charlotte Windsor
Lord Nicholas Windsor

converted from anglican to catholicism.

Biri 06-01-2010 12:21 PM

Nicolas was already mentioned

Lumutqueen 06-01-2010 12:28 PM

There have been many repeats in names mentioned of royal converting to religions. I see no problem in repeating something so people do not have to go back to and check.

NoorMeansLight 06-01-2010 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Next Star (Post 950805)
Queen Noor of Jordan was protestant before she married the late King Hussein and converted to the nation of Islam and became muslim.

Protestant or Orthodox Christian? ;) The latter, as far as I know. And as Biri said above, Q.Noor was encouraged to choose her own religious/spiritual path. She didn't feel close to Christianity anyway. :flowers:

Smart 12-21-2010 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Next Star (Post 950805)
Queen Noor of Jordan was protestant before she married the late King Hussein and converted to the nation of Islam and became muslim.

Nation of Islam is a separate religion from Islam originating in the US. Though I suppose you could have just meant she joined the ummah

CyrilVladisla 11-24-2014 05:53 PM

In her first years of marriage to Grand Duke Serge of Russia, Princess Elizabeth of Hesse continued to be a Lutheran.
Eventually Grand Duchess Elisaveta Feodorovna converted to the Russian Orthodox Church.
Quote:

Originally Posted by melina premiere (Post 1723380)
Princess Charlene of Monaco converted catholicisme before her wedding, she was protestant.

What Protestant faith did Charlene belong to?

melina premiere 11-24-2014 06:11 PM

Princess Charlene of Monaco converted catholicisme before her wedding, she was protestant.

Meraude 12-10-2014 05:23 PM

Princess Birgitta of Sweden converted to the Catholic Church after her marriage to prince Johann Georg von Hohenzollern in 1961, and her children were baptized as Catholics, thus making her and her children ineligible to the Swedish throne.

Tuf Pic 12-16-2014 07:22 PM

The Khazar Royalty/Nobility converted to Judaism!!


Also they were originally followers of


Tengriism!!


I should like to believe that @least SOME of their Royalty/Nobility were BOTH followers of Tengriism, & Judaism!!

"Sounds like an oxymoron", you might say?!

NOT QUITE!!

JEWISH SHAMANISM,

Jewish Paganism: Oxymoron or Innovation? – Forward.com,

...&...

Amazon.com: The Hebrew Goddess 3rd Enlarged Edition (9780814322710): Raphael Patai, Merlin Stone, William G. Dever: Books!!

Bonnie Blue Butler 02-05-2015 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CyrilVladisla (Post 1723707)
What Protestant faith did Charlene belong to?

She was Presbyterian. She didn't have to convert to catholicism but she wanted this.

Marty91charmed 02-05-2015 03:30 PM

:previous: I thought she belonged to the calvinist religion. I've heard that more than once on tv:ermm:

Bonnie Blue Butler 02-06-2015 07:59 AM

Really? Well, now I'm confused. I've never heard about Charlene being a calvinist :ermm:
But isn't presbyterianism an english/scottish version of calvinism?

Marty91charmed 02-06-2015 09:17 AM

I don't know much about the protestant religions sorry!

An Ard Ri 02-06-2015 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bonnie Blue Butler (Post 1747630)
Really? Well, now I'm confused. I've never heard about Charlene being a calvinist :ermm:
But isn't presbyterianism an english/scottish version of calvinism?

Calvinism

Calvinism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Presbyterianism

Presbyterianism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

ladejesus 02-06-2015 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by emmeleia (Post 963250)
What about Alexia of Greece? Her husband Carlos Morales and their children?

Quote:

Originally Posted by sgl (Post 963298)
I believe that Alexia, Carlos, and the children are Greek Orthodox. I thought that the christenings have taken place in a Greek Orthodox church, as well as their wedding.

Quote:

Originally Posted by susan alicia (Post 963311)
:previous: yes, the children of Alexia are baptised Greek orthodox,, from the thread greek royal family baptism of Amelia
[DNF] Fotoarchief Denieuwsfoto

I am correct that Carlos Morales remains Catholic? My understanding was that Princess Alexia is no longer in the line of succession to the British throne because she married a Catholic. Her children, however, are in the line of succession because they are Orthodox.

Iluvbertie 02-06-2015 10:13 PM

That will change when the Succession to the Crown Act finally passes in Australia and then becomes effective as the new laws will return everyone who is married to a Roman Catholic to the line of succession, but not those who are actually Roman Catholic.

Mbruno 06-23-2015 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IslandDweller (Post 962842)
Queen Marie of Bavaria (Marie of Prussia; 1825-1889) converted to Catholicism from Lutheranism.

It's also interesting the royals who did NOT convert when changing countries. Astrid of Sweden remained a Lutheran when marrying into the Catholic Belgian royal family.

That is not correct. Astrid converted to Catholicism and insisted that it was a willing conversion out of personal conviction and not just an obligation to her husband and country.

An Ard Ri 06-23-2015 02:32 PM

As far as I'm aware Astrid only converted to Catholicism a few years after her wedding but not straight away.

Mbruno 06-23-2015 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaatje (Post 970248)
Is keeping an original faith accepted today? For example: A Catholic princess of Belgium wanted to marry the Lutheran crown prince of Denmark. I'm not entirely certain, but I believe that there is a clause in the constitution that says members of the royal family must be Lutheran. If the princess did not want to give up her faith, would the marriage be allowed? Or, would parliament issue a special law (as they do for immediate citizenship of spouses of Danish royalty) for that princess if she agreed to raise her children in the Lutheran faith?

I believe the Danish constitution only says that the monarch must be Lutheran. In practice, however, all non-Lutherans who have married recently into the DRF have converted.

In Sweden, the Act of Succession says that both the monarch and all "princes (or princesses) of the royal house" must be members of the Lutheran Church of Sweden. A prince or princess who converts to another faith loses his/her place in the line of succession.

In the Netherlands, the royal house of Orange-Nassau is historically associated with the Dutch Reformed Church (now the "Protestant Church in the Netherlands", or PKN), which is Calvinist/Presbyterian, but there is no legal requirement that the king or members of the royal family be Protestant. In the past, a non-Protestant bride/groom could have trouble getting the consent of the Dutch parliament to marry a royal (it was certainly an issue when Princess Irene and Princess Christina were engaged). Nowadays affiliated Protestants are only 18 % or so of the Dutch population though (most people are secular/non-religious), and I don't think that is an issue anymore. Willem-Alexander married Maxima, who is Catholic and didn't convert, but Maxima agreed to get married and baptize their 3 daughters in the Protestant Church. W-A himself is said to be a committed Protestant, though not as openly as some of his ancestors. He has been criticized occasionally by the leadership of the PKN for "hiding" his religion in public (e.g. not using biblical references in his Christmas speeches etc.).

In the UK, the law says that, in order to be in the line of succession, a person must be a Protestant descendant of Sophia of Hanover. In addition, the monarch must be in communion with the Church of England (i.e. the Anglican/Episcopalian church). Until recently, marrying a Roman Catholic also constituted legal grounds for exclusion from the line of succession, but that provision has been now (retroactively) repealed by the Succession to the Crown Act 2013. Since princes and princesses of the United Kingdom could not marry Catholics (or else face exclusion from the succession), senior princes/princesses traditionally turned to other Protestant sovereign families to find suitable brides/grooms, usually from Germany, Scandinavia, or the Netherlands.

Spain historically had a Catholic monarchy. In fact, Spain was the leading European nation in the counter-reformation movement and the Catholic inquisition. The modern constitution of 1979, however, ended the status of Roman Catholicism as the established state religion and that there is no longer a requirement that the king or the royal family be Catholic. In practice, they are Catholic though and it is unlikely that will change any time soon. Queen Sofia, who was Greek Orthodox, converted to Catholicism after marrying Juan Carlos.

The Kingdom of Belgium on the other hand was born in a revolution, which, among other things, was against both absolute monarchy and Protestant rule. Ironically though, independent Belgium's first king, Leopold I, was a Protestant (Lutheran), who had been even married before to the heiress presumptive to the British throne. Leopold later married however the daughter of King Louis Philippe of the French and raised his children as Catholics. The Belgian Royal Family has been Catholic since then although, again, that is not required by law. Princess Astrid of Sweden, who was Lutheran, converted to Catholicism after marrying into the family.

In the old Kingdom of France, only Catholic male descendants in male line of Hugh Capet could ascend the throne. As mentioned before, Henri of Navarre, the first Bourbon king of France, converted from Calvinism to Catholicism to become King Henri IV.

Mbruno 06-23-2015 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by An Ard Ri (Post 1795319)
As far as I'm aware Astrid only converted to Catholicism a few years after her wedding but not straight away.

Because the priest she consulted after getting married apparently told her it had to be a "genuine conversion", and not just a protocolary one. Or at least that is what Wikipedia says. Apparently, when she converted, she did it on her free will and out of conviction.

C4A 06-23-2015 04:06 PM

Thanks, Mbruno, for the above summary you provided relating to the religion and requirements of the different monarchies. Very interesting. Do you also have similar info for other Royal houses such as Norway, Monaco, Liechtenstein and Luxembourg?


Sent from my iPad using The Royals Community

Meraude 06-23-2015 04:52 PM

Jean Baptiste Bernadotte was born Catholic, but joined the Church of Sweden when he became crown prince Karl Johan. His wife, Désirée Clary, remained a Catholic.
His son Oscar had also been born a Catholic, and joined the Church of Sweden when his father became crown prince. He married Joséphine of Leuchtenberg, a Catholic and she remained so her whole life.

Queen Sofia, wife of Oscar II, was a Lutheran, but she and her son Oscar, prince Bernadotte, were very much involved in the Swedish Evangelical movement, a part of the Holiness movement, although I don't think they left the Church of Sweden.

An Ard Ri 06-23-2015 05:18 PM

Did HRH Princess Birgitta of Sweden convert to Catholicism when she married HSH Prince Johann Georg of Hohenzollern?

Meraude 06-23-2015 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by An Ard Ri (Post 1795372)
Did HRH Princess Birgitta of Sweden convert to Catholicism when she married HSH Prince Johann Georg of Hohenzollern?

Yes, she did. She and her children are Catholics.

Mbruno 07-25-2015 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bonnie Blue Butler (Post 1747630)
Really? Well, now I'm confused. I've never heard about Charlene being a calvinist :ermm:
But isn't presbyterianism an english/scottish version of calvinism?

Yes, it is. Calvinist churches are normally called "Reformed" in continental Europe (e.g. the Netherlands, France, Switzerland, etc.) and "Presbyterian" in England, Scotland, the US, and other English-speaking countries. Likewise, in South Africa, the Calvinist churches of British origin are called "Presbyterian", whereas the Calvinist churches that were introduced in the country by the Dutch colonists in the 17th and 18th centuries are called "Dutch Reformed". Presbyterian churches in South Africa use English as language of worship, whereas South African Dutch Reformed churches use Afrikaans (a West Germanic language spoken in South Africa that is derived from Dutch, but has been a separate standard language since the early 20th century).

Stefan 07-25-2015 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meraude (Post 1795406)
Yes, she did. She and her children are Catholics.

I beleive she she erself remained protestant but was married in a catholic Ceremony and the children where raised as catholics.

eya 07-25-2015 03:25 PM

I'ts natural every royal to change the religion. Know anyone someone to don't change?

Moonmaiden23 07-25-2015 03:49 PM

The ones who do not marry outside their respective faiths don't have to change/convert.

Duc_et_Pair 07-25-2015 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eya (Post 1804444)
I'ts natural every royal to change the religion. Know anyone someone to don't change?

Máxima did not change her religion. She requested formal dispensation from the Roman-Catholic Church for a marriage with the (protestant) Prince of Orange. She got that permission. Until the day of today Queen Máxima is a Roman-Catholic.

Picture: (then) Princess Máxima and the Prince of Orange attend a Roman-Catholic Mass.

An Ard Ri 07-25-2015 04:15 PM

The wives of the ex Kings Michael of Romania and Simeon II of Bulgaria I believe are Roman Catholics whilst their husbands are Eastern Orthodox Christians.

Mbruno 07-25-2015 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair (Post 1804476)
Máxima did not change her religion. She requested formal dispensation from the Roman-Catholic Church for a marriage with the (protestant) Prince of Orange. She got that permission. Until the day of today Queen Máxima is a Roman-Catholic.

Picture: (then) Princess Máxima and the Prince of Orange attend a Roman-Catholic Mass.


Why was (then) Princess Máxima wearing a veil ? As far as I know, it is no longer customary for women to wear veils when attending mass. Was the photo perhaps taken during a mass celebrated by the Pope (in which case I believe a veil is still worn) ?

An Ard Ri 07-25-2015 04:21 PM

From memory Maxima wore a matilla as it was a solemn Mass for a retiring Dutch Bishop,I might be wrong about the occassion.

Duc_et_Pair 07-25-2015 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mbruno (Post 1804485)
Why was (then) Princess Máxima wearing a veil ? As far as I know, it is no longer customary for women to wear veils when attending mass. Was the photo perhaps taken during a mass celebrated by the Pope (in which case I believe a veil is still worn) ?

Máxima always wears a veil when attending Mass.

Máxima in the Cathedral Basilica of Saint-Bavo, Haarlem

Maxima in the Cathedral of the Saints Laurentius and Elisabeth, Rotterdam

Máxima in the Cathedral of the Saints Laurentius and Elisabeth, Rotterdam (another Mass)

Máxima in the Duomo di Parma

Máxima at the Village Church in Wassenaar

Moonmaiden23 07-25-2015 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mbruno (Post 1804485)
Why was (then) Princess Máxima wearing a veil ? As far as I know, it is no longer customary for women to wear veils when attending mass. Was the photo perhaps taken during a mass celebrated by the Pope (in which case I believe a veil is still worn) ?


In some parts of Europe and Latin America women still cover their heads during Mass, depending on the event. Papal Masses feature all of the Catholic Royal women with their heads covered.

Princesses Charlene and Caroline of Monaco routinely wear a mantilla for requiem Masses.

Duc_et_Pair 07-25-2015 07:56 PM

It also happens in Northern Europe. This picture was made in the Agnes Church in Amsterdam, a few months ago.

Mbruno 07-25-2015 09:15 PM

Isn't the Village Church in Wassenaar a Protestant church ?

I'm surprised to see Willem-Alexander with Máxima in so many Catholic masses. Is the PKN upset about that ?

NotHRH 12-13-2015 02:41 AM

Sisters TRH Princesses Irene and Christina of the Netherlands both converted to Catholicism prior to each of their marriages. Princess Charlene of Monaco was also a Roman Catholic convert prior to her marriage.

Queen Sofia of Spain (nee Princess of Greece and Denmark) also converted to Catholicism (from Greek Orthodox); whereas her cousins, The Duke of Edinburgh (Prince Philip of Greece and Denmark) and the Duchess of Kent (Princess Marina of Greece and Denmark), who were also raised Greek Orthodox, converted to Anglicanism after marrying into the BRF.

Queen Frederica went from Lutheran to Greek Orthodox after her marriage to King Pavlos of Greece.

King Henry VIII was baptized Roman Catholic as an infant and died as the Head of the Church of England.

NotHRH 12-13-2015 02:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mbruno (Post 1804591)
Isn't the Village Church in Wassenaar a Protestant church ?

I'm surprised to see Willem-Alexander with Máxima in so many Catholic masses. Is the PKN upset about that ?

Out of curiosity, why would they be?

Marengo 12-13-2015 03:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mbruno (Post 1804591)
Isn't the Village Church in Wassenaar a Protestant church ?

I'm surprised to see Willem-Alexander with Máxima in so many Catholic masses. Is the PKN upset about that ?

Certainly not, they were mostly 'work - or family related' events. The PKN is a merger of several protestant groups that happened a few years ago. However, some orthodox protestants immidiately seperated from the PKN and set up their own shop once again (Restaured reformed church is the most well known). Others never agreed with the merger in the first place such as the Bonders (Reformed Union).

As they say: if you put two Dutchmen together they start a church, if you put three of them together they will have a schism.

At the time of the wedding of prince Maurits the political party of the orthodox protestants (that only recently allowed women to be electable) still abstained from voting but they did vote in favor of the wedding of the prince of Orange to Maxima Zorreguieta. Perhaps it helped that during the engagement interview the crown prince guarenteed that his children would be raised as protestants. 'the house of Orange will remain protestant' he literally said. And Maxima said she would look forward to study protestantism. I suppose it was hoped she would convert at a later date. She never did.

The village church of Wassenaar is indeed protestant. It is known that the family visits this church privately too, nothing is known about them attending catholic services in private.

Duc_et_Pair 12-13-2015 04:47 AM

Let us not forget that the Roman-Catholic Church and the Protestant Church are two denominations in the very same Christian Faith. It is all not that shockingly different.

I think that Queen Máxima has learned to appreciate Protestantism but remained attached to the Church of Rome. And that is her good right. The constitutional Freedom of Faith counts for all residents in the kingdom of the Netherlands. The King himself included, by the way.

Duc_et_Pair 12-13-2015 05:07 AM

When Anna Paulovna Romanova, Grand-Duchess of Russia, married with the Protestant Prince of Orange (later King Willem II of the Netherlands) she formally converted to Protestantism.

In reality however Anna Paulovna remained faithful to her Orthodox faith. In the park of Soestdijk Palace, at the White Palace (Kneuterdijk Palace) in The Hague, at the Palace of the Prince of Orange in Brussels and at Sorghvliet House in The Hague, Orthodox chapels with iconostases were erected for her.

Her Will had a clausule about her chapel: “Article 8 dispositions relatives à ma chapelle et à ma sépulture. Il a toujours été d’usage qu’il a eu une Eglise du rit Greco-Russe près de la tombe des Grandes-Duchesses de Russie mortes et ensevelies à l’étranger. C’est donc dans la chapelle qui restera après moi dans les Pays-Bas, que je désire que soient conservés les vases sacrés et autres objecs destinés au culte divin, de même que les chasubles, sans en pouvoir jamais rien distraire, ni considérer comme objets d’héritage.” (Summarized: "It has always been the practice that there is a chapel in the Greek-Russian rite close to the graves of Grand-Duchesses of Russia living in foreign countries. The sacred vessels and other objects of divine worship, like the chasubles should remain together as objects of the heritage").

Today's Russian-Orthodox Church in The Hague has been built with the capital of Anna Paulovna's legacy. The objects of her chapels are still in use there. And Anna herself? She got a public Protestant funeral (and a private Orthodox ceremony) and has been interred in the Protestant New Church in Delft.

Queen Anna's travel set, now in use by the Orthodox Church in The Hague.

Queen Anna's field chapel, for travelling, a gift from her brother Tsar Alexander I

A reconstruction of Queen Anna's field chapel with her original attributes

Lee-Z 12-13-2015 05:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair (Post 1847413)
Let us not forget that the Roman-Catholic Church and the Protestant Church are two denominations in the very same Christian Faith. It is all not that shockingly different.

I think that Queen Máxima has learned to appreciate Protestantism but remained attached to the Church of Rome. And that is her good right. The constitutional Freedom of Faith counts for all residents in the kingdom of the Netherlands. The King himself included, by the way.

Maybe...but i'm pretty sure if the king would convert to Roman-Catholicism that would not go down well with some of the other christian denominations...

NotHRH 12-13-2015 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee-Z (Post 1847418)
Maybe...but i'm pretty sure if the king would convert to Roman-Catholicism that would not go down well with some of the other christian denominations...

I do not believe King WA will ever become Roman Catholic - he is now almost 50 years old. Yes, it's possible, but not probable. But if that would occur, why would other it not go down well with other Christian denominations? His wife is Catholic, as are 2 maternal aunts, 7 maternal 1st cousins and their families. Religion should be a personal matter. As long as a monarch, president, prime minister, or any person for that matter, is not pushing their religion down others' throats, or involved in clandestine activities promoting chaos upon others, who cares what religion another chooses?

Lee-Z 12-13-2015 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NotHRH (Post 1847493)
I do not believe King WA will ever become Roman Catholic - he is now almost 50 years old. Yes, it's possible, but not probable. But if that would occur, why would other it not go down well with other Christian denominations? His wife is Catholic, as are 2 maternal aunts, 7 maternal 1st cousins and their families. Religion should be a personal matter. As long as a monarch, president, prime minister, or any person for that matter, is not pushing their religion down others' throats, or involved in clandestine activities promoting chaos upon others, who cares what religion another chooses?

I don't think it works that way for a monarch, especially not in a country that has an official state-religion.

The NL doesn't have that and I indeed don't for a minute believe that the king will convert, but only 1 generation ago the fact that second-in-line Princess Irene converted to Catholicism resulted in a big shock for a lot of dutch people, see for instance this article:
Prinses Irene trouwde zonder familie - NPO Geschiedenis
translation

The fact that when king WA said he was proud of his wife for staying a catholic made headlines in the entire dutch press; en there already were comments of the Protestant church that he was "too little God minded"
Protestantse kerk ziet 'te weinig God bij koning' | NU - Het laatste nieuws het eerst op NU.nl
translated

lead me to my initial comment that if the monarch would convert there would be people who weren't happy about it...

Countessmeout 12-13-2015 12:35 PM

Irene had to give up her place in succession. She caused a huge problem when she announced her engagement and converted, with parliament threatening to disband at one point. Her mother and father did everything they could to stop the wedding. It wasn't simply Hugo was catholic, but he was a known or suspected Franco supporter.

Christina also renounced her rights. There was fear though attitutdes were changing, that her marriage and conversion would create issues like her sister's. Her wedding was in the Netherlands and thousands showed up in the streets after the wedding. So attitudes certainly have changed.

Unlike the UK and other countries, religion is not a requirement of succession. There is no law saying the heir has to be of a certain faith. But the Dutch royals have been protestant for hundreds of years, and it would be quite shocking if the king or his eldest daughter when she became queen, converted.

Duc_et_Pair 12-13-2015 01:10 PM

The King of the Netherlands is "attached" to the Protestant tradition, but he has publicly and officially seen in far more catholic places than all his predecessors. King Willem II of the Netherlands had an attachment for the Southern Netherlands and one of his best friends was a priest from Tilburg, Johannes Zwijsen, who would become Bishop of 's-Hertogenbosch (Bois-le-Duc). The presence of the Abbey of Koningshoeven (the King's Farms) which is build on domains owned by King Willem II - therefore the name - is a still a living link to the King's goodwill towards the Catholics in and around Tilburg (see picture).

Lee-Z 12-13-2015 01:56 PM

I stand by my opinion :flowers:

NotHRH 12-13-2015 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee-Z (Post 1847519)
I stand by my opinion :flowers:

Good for you, and I stand by mine; we obviously don't agree. King WA is not the king of my country, but he is the king of a country with over 50% of its population identifying as atheists. Only around 10% of Dutch Christians identfy as Protestant (mostly belonging to the "Dutch Reformed") and almost 25% identify as Roman Catholic. Long ago, in the very distant past, the Holy See used to interfere with politics and policies of numerous countries and would attempt to sway opinions in its favor; that is not the situation at this point in history. Irene and Carlos Hugo were married many years ago; the Netherlands now has a Catholic Queen consort, and times are very different than even 50 years ago.

tamta 12-13-2015 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by susan alicia (Post 963225)
the catholic church and the (greek) orthodox church "accept" each other, so I think there is officially little converting to do.

There is NOTHING further from the truth. In fact Eastern Christianity is in essence much more different than both versions of western Christianity, and thus whenever a non-Orthodox (and especially Catholic) royal reigned in Orthodox countries there were serious problems in their legitimacy and acceptance.
King Otto of Greece (Bavarian-born) is I think the uttermost example. In nearly 30 revolts during his reign, his conversion was always among the popular demands -which he persistently resisted, being a Wittelsbach. He was ousted ultimately.

NotHRH 12-14-2015 02:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tamta (Post 1847623)
There is NOTHING further from the truth. In fact Eastern Christianity is in essence much more different than both versions of western Christianity, and thus whenever a non-Orthodox (and especially Catholic) royal reigned in Orthodox countries there were serious problems in their legitimacy and acceptance.
King Otto of Greece (Bavarian-born) is I think the uttermost example. In nearly 30 revolts during his reign, his conversion was always among the popular demands -which he persistently resisted, being a Wittelsbach. He was ousted ultimately.

Your described scenario is from a few centuries ago. Within the past 10 years or so, HRH Princess Alexia of Greece and Denmark, who lives in Lanzarote, the Canary Islands, Spain, was able to baptize her 3 daughters into the Greece Orthodox faith in her local Catholic church. Permission was received from the Holy See as well as the appropriate powers - that - be of the Greek Orthodox faith. Her son was baptized there also, but he was baptized Roman Catholic, his father's faith. The Catholic Church will accept the sacraments/rites of Eastern Orthodox churches and perform them on behalf these churches, especially in areas where there are few to no Eastern Orthodox churches. People and official church doctrine of most religions, especially in the western world, have had much progression and continue to move forward. Do they disagree - yes, but they will hopefully continue to progress and continue to move forward, especially with atheism and Islam knocking on Christianity's door.

Lee-Z 12-14-2015 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NotHRH (Post 1847619)
Good for you, and I stand by mine; we obviously don't agree. King WA is not the king of my country, but he is the king of a country with over 50% of its population identifying as atheists. Only around 10% of Dutch Christians identfy as Protestant (mostly belonging to the "Dutch Reformed") and almost 25% identify as Roman Catholic. Long ago, in the very distant past, the Holy See used to interfere with politics and policies of numerous countries and would attempt to sway opinions in its favor; that is not the situation at this point in history. Irene and Carlos Hugo were married many years ago; the Netherlands now has a Catholic Queen consort, and times are very different than even 50 years ago.

Would you read my opinion differently if i were among the mentioned 25% (which happens to be the case) ?
:flowers:

Duc_et_Pair 12-14-2015 02:53 PM

Pope John Paul II stated that the Catholic and the Ortodox Churches each were a lung of the same body. The Pope has met Patriarchs from the Orthodox Churches and both have commited themselves to wards an unity, both have regretted the Great Schism which drove the once united Church apart. Changes go fast and with an unbelievabe pace.

Mbruno 12-14-2015 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NotHRH (Post 1847493)
I do not believe King WA will ever become Roman Catholic - he is now almost 50 years old. Yes, it's possible, but not probable. But if that would occur, why would other it not go down well with other Christian denominations? His wife is Catholic, as are 2 maternal aunts, 7 maternal 1st cousins and their families. Religion should be a personal matter. As long as a monarch, president, prime minister, or any person for that matter, is not pushing their religion down others' throats, or involved in clandestine activities promoting chaos upon others, who cares what religion another chooses?

The problem is that his family has been historically associated with the defense of the Protestant faith for over 400 years. If W-A or Amalia converted to Catholicism, that would come as a shock to many people.

Mbruno 12-14-2015 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair (Post 1847507)
The King of the Netherlands is "attached" to the Protestant tradition, but he has publicly and officially seen in far more catholic places than all his predecessors. King Willem II of the Netherlands had an attachment for the Southern Netherlands and one of his best friends was a priest from Tilburg, Johannes Zwijsen, who would become Bishop of 's-Hertogenbosch (Bois-le-Duc). The presence of the Abbey of Koningshoeven (the King's Farms) which is build on domains owned by King Willem II - therefore the name - is a still a living link to the King's goodwill towards the Catholics in and around Tilburg (see picture).


Apparently, the Belgian Catholics didn't find that enough as they decided to dump Willem I and bar the House of Orange from ever ascending the Belgian throne. Curiously, they picked a Protestant (Lutheran) King to replace him , Leopold of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, but demanded that Leopold's children were raísed as Catholics.

Marengo 12-14-2015 04:30 PM

I am quite sure the king will never convert and I am almost sure that neither will the princess of Orange. You are right, it would come as a shock to many. The orthodox protestants can be considered the core supporters of the RF, for whom the old triumphate 'God, The Netherlands and Orange' still means something. It must pain some of them that the royal family has different views on religion. Only recently some objected to the RF having too many public engagements on sundays. The criticism on Queen Maxima being too flamboyant also came from one of their newspapers. Nothing new I suppose, in the 30-ties they also complained that CPss Juliana and her husband used their yacht on sundays.

Although the house of Orange has been seen as a champion of protestantism in Europe for centuries, this image is not the complete story. They often sided with the stricter protestants for political reasons (stadholder Maurits, stadholder-King Willem III and king Willem III for example). Also one could argue that William the Silent actually wanted peaceful coexistance of catholicism and protestantism, a sort of ecumenism avant-la-lettre. It took him a very long time to convert to calvinism, only in 1573 after years of warfare. As an aside: the other initial leaders of the Dutch revolt - Ct. Lamoral van Egmond, Prince of Gavere and Ct. Filips van Hoorne- remained catholic until their heads were cut of by the Spanish in 1568.

Another example is Grand Duchess Sophie of Weimar (daughter of Willem II) who financed the establishement of several catholic churches on her estates in present-day Poland. However, when she was curious and wanted to see how a church turned out, she stayed in her carriage in front of the church door and sent one of her ladies-in-waiting inside to inspect the building. She explained: 'a member of the house of Orange does not enter a catholic church'.

Queen Wilhelmina -always regarded as a prototype of old fashioned, staunch Dutch calvinist- was attracted to the ecumenic thought towards the later part of her life (as was her daughter Juliana). Both Wilhelmina as her husband Hendrik were interesed to some sort of esotheric christianity, as the Queen explains in her autobiography. Prince Hendrik even believed in reincarnation. They had a lot of contacts in the theosofic movements and they esp. admired the Indian christian missionary Sundar Singh. I suppose with Wilhelmina these modern thoughts went hand-in-hand with the old ones. In her biography she still relates about The Netherlands as the new Israel: God's chosen people on earth.

Although Queen Beatrix is described in the biography of Jutta Chorus as 'a calvinist to the core', this must relate mostly to the cultural part of it. The preachers that are used by her and the RF are among the most liberal ones we have. At the funeral of Prince Claus it was even mentioned that the prince struggled with believing in God. Carel ter Linden -until his retirement the unofficial court preacher,- even claims that he (the preacher) does not believe in life after death or in a supra-natural being.

As for the Belgians: the revolution and independance from the Dutch was initiated by liberals mostly: lawyers, students, journalists and such. The catholic church played a secundary part as it allied itself with the liberals against WillemI. But it was mainly the liberal middle class that wanted an end to Willem I's semi-authocratic regime. Hence the religion of Leopold didn't matter that much I suppose, a link to England was more important at least. And the earthly powers of the catholic church in Belgium would -and did- surely grow due to the overthrow of Willem I, despite (or perhaps even because) of the fact that his usurpator was a lutheran.

For the catholic church the situation was already a big improvement as Willem I wanted to cut their powers and even thought about creating one national Dutch church where both the Dutch protestant and catholic churches were supposed to be merged and all ties to Rome were to be cut. His idea never became concrete and I suppose it would have been impossible to implement in the 19th century.

Mbruno 12-14-2015 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NotHRH (Post 1847619)
Good for you, and I stand by mine; we obviously don't agree. King WA is not the king of my country, but he is the king of a country with over 50% of its population identifying as atheists. Only around 10% of Dutch Christians identfy as Protestant (mostly belonging to the "Dutch Reformed") and almost 25% identify as Roman Catholic. Long ago, in the very distant past, the Holy See used to interfere with politics and policies of numerous countries and would attempt to sway opinions in its favor; that is not the situation at this point in history. Irene and Carlos Hugo were married many years ago; the Netherlands now has a Catholic Queen consort, and times are very different than even 50 years ago.


Actually, according to official statistics, about 16 % identify as either PKN or Dutch Reformed; another 5 % can be classified as "other Christian" , and about 25% are Catholic. Back when Princess Irene got married, probably about 40 % or so of the population was Dutch Reformed.

It is also incorrect to say that 50 % of the Dutch population self-identifies as "atheist". Slightly under 50 % claim to be "non-religious", which includes both atheists, agnostics, or people who believe in the existence of some kind of "deity", but are not followers of any organized religion.

Mbruno 12-14-2015 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NotHRH (Post 1847642)
Your described scenario is from a few centuries ago. Within the past 10 years or so, HRH Princess Alexia of Greece and Denmark, who lives in Lanzarote, the Canary Islands, Spain, was able to baptize her 3 daughters into the Greece Orthodox faith in her local Catholic church. Permission was received from the Holy See as well as the appropriate powers - that - be of the Greek Orthodox faith. Her son was baptized there also, but he was baptized Roman Catholic, his father's faith. The Catholic Church will accept the sacraments/rites of Eastern Orthodox churches and perform them on behalf these churches, especially in areas where there are few to no Eastern Orthodox churches. People and official church doctrine of most religions, especially in the western world, have had much progression and continue to move forward. Do they disagree - yes, but they will hopefully continue to progress and continue to move forward, especially with atheism and Islam knocking on Christianity's door.


I don't know about all sacraments/rites, but the Catholic church recognizes the validity not only of Orthodox baptisms, but also of Anglican, Lutheran, or even Presbyterian/Reformed baptsms. People who were baptized in any of the aforementioned churches are not (and in fact must not be) baptized again if they convert to Catholicism.

NotHRH 12-16-2015 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marengo (Post 1847820)
I am quite sure the king will never convert and I am almost sure that neither will the princess of Orange. You are right, it would come as a shock to many. The orthodox protestants can be considered the core supporters of the RF, for whom the old triumphate 'God, The Netherlands and Orange' still means something. It must pain some of them that the royal family has different views on religion. Only recently some objected to the RF having too many public engagements on sundays. The criticism on Queen Maxima being too flamboyant also came from one of their newspapers. Nothing new I suppose, in the 30-ties they also complained that CPss Juliana and her husband used their yacht on sundays.

Although the house of Orange has been seen as a champion of protestantism in Europe for centuries, this image is not the complete story. They often sided with the stricter protestants for political reasons (stadholder Maurits, stadholder-King Willem III and king Willem III for example). Also one could argue that William the Silent actually wanted peaceful coexistance of catholicism and protestantism, a sort of ecumenism avant-la-lettre. It took him a very long time to convert to calvinism, only in 1573 after years of warfare. As an aside: the other initial leaders of the Dutch revolt - Ct. Lamoral van Egmond, Prince of Gavere and Ct. Filips van Hoorne- remained catholic until their heads were cut of by the Spanish in 1568.

Another example is Grand Duchess Sophie of Weimar (daughter of Willem II) who financed the establishement of several catholic churches on her estates in present-day Poland. However, when she was curious and wanted to see how a church turned out, she stayed in her carriage in front of the church door and sent one of her ladies-in-waiting inside to inspect the building. She explained: 'a member of the house of Orange does not enter a catholic church'.

Queen Wilhelmina -always regarded as a prototype of old fashioned, staunch Dutch calvinist- was attracted to the ecumenic thought towards the later part of her life (as was her daughter Juliana). Both Wilhelmina as her husband Hendrik were interesed to some sort of esotheric christianity, as the Queen explains in her autobiography. Prince Hendrik even believed in reincarnation. They had a lot of contacts in the theosofic movements and they esp. admired the Indian christian missionary Sundar Singh. I suppose with Wilhelmina these modern thoughts went hand-in-hand with the old ones. In her biography she still relates about The Netherlands as the new Israel: God's chosen people on earth.

Although Queen Beatrix is described in the biography of Jutta Chorus as 'a calvinist to the core', this must relate mostly to the cultural part of it. The preachers that are used by her and the RF are among the most liberal ones we have. At the funeral of Prince Claus it was even mentioned that the prince struggled with believing in God. Carel ter Linden -until his retirement the unofficial court preacher,- even claims that he (the preacher) does not believe in life after death or in a supra-natural being.

As for the Belgians: the revolution and independance from the Dutch was initiated by liberals mostly: lawyers, students, journalists and such. The catholic church played a secundary part as it allied itself with the liberals against WillemI. But it was mainly the liberal middle class that wanted an end to Willem I's semi-authocratic regime. Hence the religion of Leopold didn't matter that much I suppose, a link to England was more important at least. And the earthly powers of the catholic church in Belgium would -and did- surely grow due to the overthrow of Willem I, despite (or perhaps even because) of the fact that his usurpator was a lutheran.

For the catholic church the situation was already a big improvement as Willem I wanted to cut their powers and even thought about creating one national Dutch church where both the Dutch protestant and catholic churches were supposed to be merged and all ties to Rome were to be cut. His idea never became concrete and I suppose it would have been impossible to implement in the 19th century.

Amazes me people actually have a problem with a Dutch monarch becoming Catholic. The Queen consort is Catholic, many in the extended DRF are also Catholic. WA will never officially become Catholic, but my doubts concern the Princess of Orange. She may one day convert to her mother's and many of her extended families' religion. If there is no state religion in the Netherlands, and more christians there are Catholic, why would that be a problem?

carlota 12-16-2015 11:21 AM

i doubt amalia would become catholic officially, but if she chooses to follow catholic beliefs or traditions, she may do so privately without any issues. both religions being christian, i doubt the difference between them is so large that someone not knowing her, or those of us following royalty, would ever notice.

NotHRH 12-17-2015 01:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carlota (Post 1848308)
i doubt amalia would become catholic officially, but if she chooses to follow catholic beliefs or traditions, she may do so privately without any issues. both religions being christian, i doubt the difference between them is so large that someone not knowing her, or those of us following royalty, would ever notice.

I was thinking pretty much the same and maybe even WA is doing just that

norenxaq 12-17-2015 02:52 AM

catholic, protestant, even orthodox are different types of christianity. thus those people are changing denominations, not religions

as for the khazars, the conversion was not universal. they also accepted other religions and did not force their populace to become jewish when their khagan did

Mbruno 12-17-2015 06:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carlota (Post 1848308)
i doubt amalia would become catholic officially, but if she chooses to follow catholic beliefs or traditions, she may do so privately without any issues. both religions being christian, i doubt the difference between them is so large that someone not knowing her, or those of us following royalty, would ever notice.

Amalia is currently attending a Protestant school. Presumably the main reason her parents chose that school is its academic strength, but I wouldn't be surprised if reliigion also played a part in the decision. Protestants may be a minority in the Netherlands today, but the country's elite is still mostly Protestant and, through its association with the royal family, the Protestant Church still has an informal "semiofficial" role, at least as the Church of choice for public ceremonies like royal weddings, christening and funerals.

tamta 12-18-2015 01:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NotHRH (Post 1847642)
Your described scenario is from a few centuries ago. Within the past 10 years or so, HRH Princess Alexia of Greece and Denmark, who lives in Lanzarote, the Canary Islands, Spain, was able to baptize her 3 daughters into the Greece Orthodox faith in her local Catholic church. Permission was received from the Holy See as well as the appropriate powers - that - be of the Greek Orthodox faith. Her son was baptized there also, but he was baptized Roman Catholic, his father's faith. The Catholic Church will accept the sacraments/rites of Eastern Orthodox churches and perform them on behalf these churches, especially in areas where there are few to no Eastern Orthodox churches. People and official church doctrine of most religions, especially in the western world, have had much progression and continue to move forward. Do they disagree - yes, but they will hopefully continue to progress and continue to move forward, especially with atheism and Islam knocking on Christianity's door.



1) King Otto is not an example taken from "a few centuries ago". He was the first monarch of modern Greece, which, we should not forget, was founded only in the 19th century, and reigned until 1862. Not yesterday, but still proper modern era history, clearly.
The reason why his example is important is because it set such a precedent in Greek affairs, that forced the next king and dynasty to institutionalize the 'Orthodoxy of the throne', -a provision which has survived the country's passing on to republican constitution; as confessing the Orthodox creed remains a constitutional requirement for the now-elected leader of the Greek state.

2) It is a very frequent custom especially in diaspora that Orthodox services are carried in temples of other denominations. Yet this is only practical facilitation (and usually there is a kind of rent for the use of the space), and has nothing to do with common worship. In fact the Orthodox priest can not hold a mass in an altar consecrated by an other church -should he use their space for the service, he carries with him, instead, the 'antiminsion', the vestment that can function as the equivalent to an Orthodox altar for services outside the premises of an Orthodox church.

In the case of Princess Alexia, it's the first time I hear that her son was christened Catholic. It is certainly kept private; and in any case, we talk about a junior royal -in no meaningful place in the line of succession, or with any prospects of any public role in Greece. And it increasingly seems that the latter is also the case for his mother. As a permanent resident of Spain -and with spanish as the main language in her household-, she makes her own private choices in those matters.

3) Yes, the Catholic Church since the Second Vatican Council (I think) does accept the sacraments of other denominations -including the Orthodox. Yet, this is not BY ANY MEANS true in the Orthodox Church. There has been no decision of any autonomous Orthodox church that accepts such principle, and, for whoever knows the Orthodox, there will never be. I live in an Orthodox country and am aware how far Orthodox mentality is from accepting such a principle or practice.

NotHRH 12-18-2015 01:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mbruno (Post 1848565)
Amalia is currently attending a Protestant school. Presumably the main reason her parents chose that school is its academic strength, but I wouldn't be surprised with religion also played a part in the decision. Protestants may be a minority in the Netherlands today, but the country's elite is still mostly Protestant and, through its association with the royal family, the Protestant Church still has an informal "semiofficial" role, at least as the Church of choice for public ceremonies like royal weddings, christening and funerals.

Even so, I know she us being exposed to Catholicism anyway. Maybe she attends midnight mass in Argentina while on holiday there with her mother's family for Christmas. It basically a "sin" to photograph the DRF doing things that invade their privacy, so who knows? She and her sisters can always convert if they so choose when they are older. 👸👑

NotHRH 12-19-2015 02:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tamta (Post 1848739)
1) King Otto is not an example taken from "a few centuries ago". He was the first monarch of modern Greece, which, we should not forget, was founded only in the 19th century, and reigned until 1862. Not yesterday, but still proper modern era history, clearly.
The reason why his example is important is because it set such a precedent in Greek affairs, that forced the next king and dynasty to institutionalize the 'Orthodoxy of the throne', -a provision which has survived the country's passing on to republican constitution; as confessing the Orthodox creed remains a constitutional requirement for the now-elected leader of the Greek state.

2) It is a very frequent custom especially in diaspora that Orthodox services are carried in temples of other denominations. Yet this is only practical facilitation (and usually there is a kind of rent for the use of the space), and has nothing to do with common worship. In fact the Orthodox priest can not hold a mass in an altar consecrated by an other church -should he use their space for the service, he carries with him, instead, the 'antiminsion', the vestment that can function as the equivalent to an Orthodox altar for services outside the premises of an Orthodox church.

In the case of Princess Alexia, it's the first time I hear that her son was christened Catholic. It is certainly kept private; and in any case, we talk about a junior royal -in no meaningful place in the line of succession, or with any prospects of any public role in Greece. And it increasingly seems that the latter is also the case for his mother. As a permanent resident of Spain -and with spanish as the main language in her household-, she makes her own private choices in those matters.

3) Yes, the Catholic Church since the Second Vatican Council (I think) does accept the sacraments of other denominations -including the Orthodox. Yet, this is not BY ANY MEANS true in the Orthodox Church. There has been no decision of any autonomous Orthodox church that accepts such principle, and, for whoever knows the Orthodox, there will never be. I live in an Orthodox country and am aware how far Orthodox mentality is from accepting such a principle or practice.

I did not mean to imply that about the the Orthodoxy diaspora. I was really only stating what you stated in your post's second point. No harm meant/didn't mean to offend you or anybody else. You got way more out of my post than I meant for anybody to. An aside - seems the Roman Catholic Church is more accepting of other religions and religious beliefs and have always been taught that by my "Church." Again no offense meant.

eya 12-19-2015 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NotHRH (Post 1847642)
Your described scenario is from a few centuries ago. Within the past 10 years or so, HRH Princess Alexia of Greece and Denmark, who lives in Lanzarote, the Canary Islands, Spain, was able to baptize her 3 daughters into the Greece Orthodox faith in her local Catholic church. Permission was received from the Holy See as well as the appropriate powers - that - be of the Greek Orthodox faith. Her son was baptized there also, but he was baptized Roman Catholic, his father's faith. The Catholic Church will accept the sacraments/rites of Eastern Orthodox churches and perform them on behalf these churches, especially in areas where there are few to no Eastern Orthodox churches. People and official church doctrine of most religions, especially in the western world, have had much progression and continue to move forward. Do they disagree - yes, but they will hopefully continue to progress and continue to move forward, especially with atheism and Islam knocking on Christianity's door.

Just a small correction . All children Princess Alexia including her son Carlos baptized as Orthodox.

NotHRH 12-20-2015 07:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eya (Post 1849116)
Just a small correction . All children Princess Alexia including her son Carlos baptized as Orthodox.

Well then I stand corrected - just repeated what I saw that in another part of this forum. :)

An Ard Ri 12-20-2015 08:26 AM

Nazli Sabri,queen and queen mother of Egypt converted from Islam to Roman Catholicism which must have caused quite a stir at the time.

Tuf Pic 02-14-2016 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by norenxaq (Post 1848546)
catholic, protestant, even orthodox are different types of christianity. thus those people are changing denominations, not religions

as for the khazars, the conversion was not universal. they also accepted other religions and did not force their populace to become jewish when their khagan did

As did the Mongol Khanates in general:

Mongol Empire and Religious Freedom | HistoryOnTheNet


I have a strong feeling that @the very least SOME of the Khazarian Royalty/Nobility quite possibly embraced BOTH Tengriism, *&* Judaism, (as well as maybe other belief-system(s)), because, after all, it IS possible to be a Jewish/Hebraic-Wiccan &/or a Generic Pagan, a HinJew, (Jewish Hindu), &/or a JuBu, (a Jewish Buddhist), etc.!!


SIDE-NOTE: For the record, I'm an Eclectic Pagan, (always have been, always will be in my beliefs, probably in previous lifetimes as well, definitely in future incarnations as well!!), & I identify with *ALL* of the above, & many other spiritualities of various sorts as well!!

norenxaq 02-15-2016 01:21 AM

I don't doubt it. however, there is very little documentary evidence for the khazars. and, as we are considering individual beliefs, we will never be certain. I am also aware of early mongol tolerance. however, this became less so after they converted to islsm

NotHRH 02-16-2016 02:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuf Pic (Post 1863693)
As did the Mongol Khanates in general:

Mongol Empire and Religious Freedom | HistoryOnTheNet


I have a strong feeling that @the very least SOME of the Khazarian Royalty/Nobility quite possibly embraced BOTH Tengriism, *&* Judaism, (as well as maybe other belief-system(s)), because, after all, it IS possible to be a Jewish/Hebraic-Wiccan &/or a Generic Pagan, a HinJew, (Jewish Hindu), &/or a JuBu, (a Jewish Buddhist), etc.!!


SIDE-NOTE: For the record, I'm an Eclectic Pagan, (always have been, always will be in my beliefs, probably in previous lifetimes as well, definitely in future incarnations as well!!), & I identify with *ALL* of the above, & many other spiritualities of various sorts as well!!

I do realize there are many forms/types of spiritualality in ever corner of the world, and person's beliefs are their own. But when someone posts about identifying with being a JuBu, amongst the various others you stated, it was for the "shock" value rather than for information purposes. This topic is about royals who convert to other religions, and not about our own religious or spiritual beliefs.

lucymae88 02-16-2016 04:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NotHRH (Post 1863971)
I do realize there are many forms/types of spiritualality in ever corner of the world, and person's beliefs are their own.

I agree someone's beliefs are private and no ones else's business. Its 2016 I think its silly that people are still being made to convert before they can marry someone. People have enough problems they don't need to add religion to the mix. If you truly love someone your not going care what religion they are or believe in. I think its a practice this royal houses need to do away with.


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