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DuedePhiladelphia 03-31-2009 07:46 PM

monaco's crown
 
I was asked a question that I need a asnwer to. Why dosent the Grimaldis own a state crown? Its obvious that they could afford one. They should "look" more like a monarchy

missmandyberry 04-01-2009 11:53 AM

My guess is that they don't have a crown, since they're only a Principality. However, I'm not 100% sure... I'll research this for you.

hibou 04-01-2009 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DuedePhiladelphia (Post 916230)
I was asked a question that I need a asnwer to. Why dosent the Grimaldis own a state crown? Its obvious that they could afford one. They should "look" more like a monarchy

The Grimaldis are not royalty (HRH) therefore they have no crown. They are HSH. Their princely title was granted to them; not one that was inherited. Of course they could always buy one to look royal, but that would have been pretty tacky. Grace did own one or two tiaras which are of course different from a crown. If you go look at the photos of Albert's coronation, you will see no crown.

LadyMacAlpine 04-01-2009 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hibou (Post 916549)
The Grimaldis are not royalty (HRH) therefore they have no crown. They are HSH. Their princely title was granted to them; not one that was inherited. Of course they could always buy one to look royal, but that would have been pretty tacky. Grace did own one or two tiaras which are of course different from a crown. If you go look at the photos of Albert's coronation, you will see no crown.

If you want to get technical all Royals fit into the group you mentioned. They were originally born just men and woman like everyone else who appointed themselves rulers and/or won it through wars. Then they were able to inherit the Royal Highness Title and they are no different then the Princely Family of Monaco except their ancestors were greedier and more blood thirsty about everything including on what commoners should call them.

hibou 04-01-2009 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LadyMacAlpine (Post 916584)
If you want to get technical all Royals fit into the group you mentioned. They were originally born just men and woman like everyone else who appointed themselves rulers and/or won it through wars. Then they were able to inherit the Royal Highness Title and they are no different then the Princely Family of Monaco except their ancestors were greedier and more blood thirsty about everything including on what commoners should call them.

I would suggest that we all turn to Monaco history as it is written for the answer.

DuedePhiladelphia 04-01-2009 03:10 PM

So all the small countries of Europe have no crown? Luxembourg ( sp) Lieichenstein (sp) I believe that HRH-HSH-HIH-HM- all equals royalty when a head of state requires a courtesy as a bow or curtsy from his subjects---They should own a crown!! JMO

Bones 04-01-2009 03:54 PM

Most European monarchies have crowns but none but the British actually use them and that is only rarely so I don't think Monaco really stands out for lack of one. There is a crown on the state flag and the coat-of-arms which is about as close as most other crowns are seen on the continent. No one but the British has a coronation any more (not even the Pope) so while I suppose the Grimaldis could come up with a princely crown of some sort it would probably come off as looking a little vainglorious since no one does coronations any more and most would not see a real "need" for one.

LadyMacAlpine 04-01-2009 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hibou (Post 916648)
I would suggest that we all turn to Monaco history as it is written for the answer.

I was stating what history tells us about all those called Royal today and how they got there titles.

DuedePhiladelphia 04-01-2009 04:03 PM

Interesting.. so no other family are crowned king/queen @ their coronation besides England? If this is case I understand y the Grimaldis dosent have one.

thanks,
Bones

White Princess 04-01-2009 04:53 PM

There are other monarchies where the monarch is crowned as the british. In Asia, such as Butão are also crowned. Emperor Dom Pedro II of Brasil was also crowned (with a crown and a scepter). The king of Tonga was officially crowned last year with pomp and circumstances in a ceremony extremely expensive!

hibou 04-01-2009 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DuedePhiladelphia (Post 916709)
Interesting.. so no other family are crowned king/queen @ their coronation besides England? If this is case I understand y the Grimaldis dosent have one.

thanks,
Bones

Most do have crowns, Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Spain etc. Historically you have to go a long way back. Remember that Kings were supposed to be decendant from God. Most of the royal houses of Europe are related to one another since royals could only marry other royals or titled nobility. It's only been recently that royals could marry commoners. Hense you get Crown Princess Victoria for example. Charles is technically Crown Prince Charles since he is next in line to the throne. Thus they are referred to as His Royal Highness or Her Royal Highness. The Grimaldi's were given the title of Prince not born with it. Check out Monaco's history and you will see why or research HRH as opposed to the Grimaldi's HSH and it's meaning. In it you will find out why there is technically no crown. It's not a question of whether to wear one or not it's a question of who is royal and who isn't.

Prince Armando 04-01-2009 09:55 PM

I have read all the reply's and although most have some bearing of truth there is still the fact that HSH Prince Albert had a coronation, it is only my thought but does not that mean a crown should be placed on the head which is why the crown is important, as he or HSH is the head of the state and of it's people. Also it must be remembered that in all the years it is thought that royals are appointed by God, not even his holiness in Rome is decended from God but appointed by the spirit. Since the beginning every person started out as one man or one woman, the titles were given to all, Most royal families can trace their line back, it is this line which is the glue that represents the countries traditions.

sandsla 04-01-2009 11:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DuedePhiladelphia (Post 916682)
So all the small countries of Europe have no crown? Luxembourg ( sp) Lieichenstein (sp) I believe that HRH-HSH-HIH-HM- all equals royalty when a head of state requires a courtesy as a bow or curtsy from his subjects---They should own a crown!! JMO

Actually you are talking about two different things. A Head of State and members of Royalty are two different things, yes Albert happens to be both but generally speaking if you are a Head of State you do not bow or curtsy to members of royalty, or if you are wife to a Head of State you do do not curtsy. I imagine some might curtsy as Carla did to the Queen of England out of respect to her as a long serving monarch and as a guest of the Queen in her own home--a little respect to the Queen when there are nude pictures of you are on the front cover of the papers that day in her own country where she is receiving you--it probably went along way to show a little nod of respect to the Queen under those circumstances. Did Michele Obama curtsy? I know Prince Philip reprimanded Jackie when she curtsied to him when she was married to JFK, she did it again at her husbands funeral and he again repeated that she shouldn't curtsy, at that point she replied she was no longer the President's wife, but he was still in the White House and he probably saw it as disrespectful to her own husband and his own position as a Head of State and on that day his memory as Head of State. I imagine there is a protocol people follow but it probably is thought to show a disrespect to your own position as a Head of State or to your husband's position of Head of State and of course not everyone recognizes royalty in the world and that kind of class distinction. Monaco is a principality not a Kingdom as someone once called it? ;):rolleyes: Why would an actual crown be so important anyway, it certainly would make someone look very insecure and ridiculous to have to go to that extreme to think they had to walk around in a crown to garner respect in the world. If someone is that desperate to be recognized I'd just send them to Burger King.:rofl: Seriously who else actually wears a crown besides QE and on very few occasions? I suppose someone else has at one time but I can't think of anyone who does? Also I think crowns are passed down if you are having to go buy yourself a crown that certainly would say something about yourself!

sandsla 04-01-2009 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prince Armando (Post 916859)
I have read all the reply's and although most have some bearing of truth there is still the fact that HSH Prince Albert had a coronation, it is only my thought but does not that mean a crown should be placed on the head which is why the crown is important, as he or HSH is the head of the state and of it's people. Also it must be remembered that in all the years it is thought that royals are appointed by God, not even his holiness in Rome is decended from God but appointed by the spirit. Since the beginning every person started out as one man or one woman, the titles were given to all, Most royal families can trace their line back, it is this line which is the glue that represents the countries traditions.

What about Napolean?:whistling:

Prince Armando 04-01-2009 11:22 PM

Well since we are talking about royalty it is only fitting that if you are being crowned at a ceremony as he was then a crown should be placed on the heard, it says nothing about the person, but it would have spoken volumes to his people that he cared enough to give them that ceremony as their prince. Just my veiw.

DuedePhiladelphia 04-01-2009 11:24 PM

I understand that crowns are passed down- it have to start SOMEWHERE in time - u cannot tell me that the stuarts/tudors woke up one day and there was a crown in the mail! yea yea yea I read about the heads of state not having to bow or curtsy- that wasnt my question......A crown is a symbol of tradItions and even Burger KIng has a CROWN.

sandsla 04-02-2009 03:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DuedePhiladelphia (Post 916881)
I understand that crowns are passed down- it have to start SOMEWHERE in time - u cannot tell me that the stuarts/tudors woke up one day and there was a crown in the mail! yea yea yea I read about the heads of state not having to bow or curtsy- that wasnt my question......A crown is a symbol of tradItions and even Burger KIng has a CROWN.

Well if it was symbol of tradition for them then they would have one, wouldn't they? I suppose if some member of Royalty felt they were not tooting their own horn enough they could go out and buy themselves one if that is what they needed to feel more important, If the Title, Throne and Palace among other things were just not enough :rolleyes: and they think a crown would do the trick, because in 2009 this is the only way they could earn some respect? I suppose they are welcome to do that, but I want to see the first royal person that has the nerve to do it!:rofl: Being that you are from the birthplace of America, this concerns you? ;)

sandsla 04-02-2009 04:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DuedePhiladelphia (Post 916682)
So all the small countries of Europe have no crown? Luxembourg ( sp) Lieichenstein (sp) I believe that HRH-HSH-HIH-HM- all equals royalty when a head of state requires a courtesy as a bow or curtsy from his subjects---They should own a crown!!JMO

Well I'm very sorry then, I apologize for misinterpreting this?

Bones 04-02-2009 06:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prince Armando (Post 916859)
I have read all the reply's and although most have some bearing of truth there is still the fact that HSH Prince Albert had a coronation, it is only my thought but does not that mean a crown should be placed on the head which is why the crown is important, as he or HSH is the head of the state and of it's people. Also it must be remembered that in all the years it is thought that royals are appointed by God, not even his holiness in Rome is decended from God but appointed by the spirit. Since the beginning every person started out as one man or one woman, the titles were given to all, Most royal families can trace their line back, it is this line which is the glue that represents the countries traditions.

But that is not a fact I'm afriad. Albert did not have a coronation nor has any Prince of Monaco ever had one because there is no crown. The ceremony might sometimes be called that but it is actually an enthronement. When Juan Carlos became King of Spain he simply took an oath, as do most other continental royals. The last Pope to be crowned was Paul VI. In Portugal, if I remember correctly, the monarch was not crowned because the crown belonged to God and no one else was allowed to wear it. In the Netherlands there is a crown but (if I am not mistaken) as the crown belongs to the people and not to the monarch it is not allowed to be worn.

hibou 04-02-2009 10:41 AM

well, I decided to do a little research. Here goes. Kings go back to the start of civilization but the current European royals date back to William the Conqueror. Some consider King Arthur to be the first "modern" king. At any rate the current situation of HRH and HSH still goes back to the title being granted to the Grimaldis not inherited. The confusion is that Albert inherieted the thrown like most HRH - the line of succession was set up by the first Prince of Monaco. A big chance to the succession issues of royals came about when Sweden eliminated the first male as being the heir and changed it to the first child male or female. Many in Monaco wanted Rainier to make that change. If he had Caroline would be in charge. hope this helps.


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