The Royal Forums

The Royal Forums (http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/)
-   Dutch Royal Residences (http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f224/)
-   -   Palace Huis Ten Bosch, The Hague (http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f224/palace-huis-ten-bosch-the-hague-18772.html)

Tina 08-18-2003 12:04 PM

Palace Huis Ten Bosch, The Hague
 
1 Attachment(s)
Paleis Huis ten Bosch - Den Haag

Marengo 01-27-2006 08:30 AM

Some images of the Oranjezaal (Orange Hall) in Palace Huis ten Bosch. Princess Amalia had this hall made to honour her husband, stadholder Frederik-Hendrik ;de stededwinger' (cityforcer? as he reconquered some dutch cities from the spanish). You can spot him in the carriage, with the Orange cloth around him. Amalia and her daughters are looking from the side. Countess Luana was baptised here.

1st pic: iso-socrates.berkeley.edu
2nd pic: iso-socrates.berkeley.edu
3rd pic: digischool.nl
4th pic: ANP

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f5...ranjezaal2.jpg


http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f5...ranjezaal3.jpg







http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f5...ranjezaal4.jpg


http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/d...en2/941200.jpg

Her_Majesty 05-24-2006 09:19 AM

Palais Huis ten Bosh and it's stunning garden:

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/d...n2/2106834.jpg http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/d...n2/2106833.jpg http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/d...en2/924672.jpg http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/d...n2/4615235.jpg http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/d...n2/1062641.jpg http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/d...n2/3780281.jpg


who used this castel before Beatrix and her Family moved there?

pictures from:http://image64.webshots.com/164/1/63...3WGcGLx_ph.jpg

Marengo 05-24-2006 11:29 AM

The palace wasn't really used before Beatrix lived there. Juliana used it on some occassions, but not to often. Wilhelmina used it from time to time, not to often either and only Queen Sophie (1st wife of King Willem III) actually used it as her main residence.

----

After the war the trees were gone:



http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/d...n2/3800208.jpg http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/d...en2/893430.jpg

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/d...n2/1866012.jpg http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/d...n2/1866013.jpg

And it opened for public:

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/d...n2/5570640.jpg

Marengo 05-24-2006 11:29 AM

Chinese Room (ANP):

The dark fllor was before the renovation and the patterened floor as it has been since 1984

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/d...n2/1842986.jpg http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/d...n2/1842984.jpg http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/d...en2/937407.jpg http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/d...en2/937156.jpg

Japanese Room (ANP):

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/d...en2/941194.jpg http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/d...n2/2106830.jpg

Hall:

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/d...n2/2466409.jpg

Her_Majesty 05-24-2006 11:52 AM

Miniature versions of the palace ;):

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/d...n2/7862696.jpg http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/d...en2/999000.jpg http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/d...en2/999001.jpg http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/d...en2/943732.jpg

A map:

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/d...n2/2106839.jpg

Marengo 10-07-2006 05:32 PM

Now on to palace Huis ten Bosch. The palace where the Queen now lives. Pictures again provided by Thijs on the Alexanderpalace forum.

First the Orange Hall:

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f5...rten/huis2.jpg

Detailed view with stadholder Frederik-Hendrik in the carriage. The Hall was created by his wife, Princess AMaalia to honour him when she was already widowed:

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f5...rten/huis3.jpg

Ready for dinner:

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/d...01-67diner.jpg



http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f5...ten/huis11.jpg

ANd an old drawing to celebrate Mary II, wife off STadholder/King Willem/William III

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f5...rten/huis4.jpg

Marengo 10-07-2006 05:36 PM

The green salon:

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f5...rten/huis6.jpg

. In the back a paining of the future King Willem I, his sister Duchess Louise of Brunswick and their brother Prince Frederik:

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/d...n2/2106832.jpg http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/d...en2/941195.jpg

Small dining room:

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f5...rten/huis1.jpg


Pictures again provided by Thijs on the Alexander Palace forum and ANP.

Marengo 10-07-2006 05:40 PM

The Japanese salon, a present to Princess Wilhelmina of Orange, nee Princess of Prussia (wife of Stadholder Willem V and mother to King Willem I) by a merchant:

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f5...rten/huis5.jpg

The white salon:

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f5...rten/huis8.jpg

The staircase (on the leftside of the door there is a simular one):

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f5...14entrance.jpg

pictures provided by Thijs at the Alxander Palace forum,

Marengo 10-07-2006 05:41 PM

The White dining room:

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f5...hitedining.jpg

The ballroom:

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f5...huis10ball.jpg


Queen Sophie's porcelain cabinet:

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f5...ncabsophie.jpg

pictures provided by Thijs at the Alxander Palace forum,

Marengo 10-07-2006 05:43 PM

Two paintings of the palace around 1750, again provided by Thijs on the Alexander Palace forum.

Front view:

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f5...uis13_1750.jpg

Back view:

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f5...uis12_1750.jpg

Marengo 10-07-2006 05:43 PM

From ANP:

The 'Haagsche salon'


http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/d...en2/941199.jpg http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/d...en2/937261.jpg

More of the Haagsche salon and the Biljart room:
http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/d...n2/1842985.jpg http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/d...en2/938604.jpg

The van der Aa salon:


http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/d...n2/1842983.jpg http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/d...en2/937427.jpg

The White salon:

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/d...n2/1842987.jpg http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/d...en2/941198.jpg

Dining room & ball room:

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/d...n2/1842982.jpg http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/d...2/941201-1.jpg

Marengo 10-28-2008 09:24 AM

You can take a virtual tour of the palace, look here.

Wikipedia page here.

Marengo 02-25-2009 01:59 PM

On 26 March the city counsil of The Hague will vote about new plans for the enlargement of Huis ten Bosch Palace. The enlargements will be 'conserving' the original palace etc. And the three guests/staff buildings will be built on a spot close to the present guest building.

lucien 03-17-2009 05:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marengo (Post 899652)
On 26 March the city counsil of The Hague will vote about new plans for the enlargement of Huis ten Bosch Palace. The enlargements will be 'conserving' the original palace etc. And the three guests/staff buildings will be built on a spot close to the present guest building.

There will be no new building at all.Just presuming by a rag,again.

Nieuwsberichten Royalblog.nl: Geen uitbreidingsplannen Huis ten Bosch


courtesy hja

lucien 01-29-2013 02:40 AM

:dutchstandard:
Their future Majesties King Willem Alexander and Queen Máxima will move into Huis ten Bosch Palace in due time.

News - Het Koninklijk Huis

ashelen 01-29-2013 02:04 PM

I am sure they will miss her house, much more private for the kids!

Marengo 01-29-2013 05:26 PM

The location Huis ten Bosch is also quite privatate. From the Rijksstraatweg (a busy road between Leiden and The Hague) you can only see the roof top of the backside of the palace in autumn and winter, when the trees lost their leafs. The entry roads are connected to more quiet streets with hardly any view of the palace too.

The park around the palace must be slightly smaller than the private part of the Eikenhorst, but it is large enough. The main difference must be that there will be much more rooms for representation & staff. The private part will be the entire 'Wassenaarse vleugel' , the wing on the right.

Tarlita 01-29-2013 05:52 PM

Marengo what a treaure you are for posting these wonderful pics. I thank you they are wonderful.

An Ard Ri 01-29-2013 05:55 PM

I believe that the English translation of Huis ten Bosch is the "House in the Woods",so I'm sure it will be private enough.

tommy100 12-27-2013 10:18 AM

Any news on a date fe when the king and queen will move in? Not that they want to be seen to kick princess Beatrix out but as it's the next big thing for them and the girls I imagine in a way they want to get it over with and settle down

Marengo 08-28-2014 06:13 AM

Piet Oudolf will make a new plan for the layout of the gardens of Huis ten Bosch. mr. Oudolf is one of the best in his line of business and created among other things the Gardens of Remembrance in New York.

Royalty Online

I wonder if much will be changed, for now the park is mainly in the English style. I wonder if they try to reconstruct some elements of the park as it was when it was built in the 17th century.

Aerial view of the gardens:

http://www.paulvermast.nl/wp-content...-ten-bosch.JPG

Marengo 08-29-2014 08:29 AM

:previous:

Apparently the renovation of the palace and gardens will cost 20 million euros. I wonder what they will do for that amount of money. The issue will undoubtably lead to questions in parlament.

http://denhaagfm.nl/2014/08/27/verbo...-miljoen-euro/

Duc_et_Pair 08-29-2014 09:20 AM

I would like a restoration of the 17th C gardens but then why this landcsape architect whom uses to create new lay-outs rather than restoring old gardens? I am amazed about the amount. It is a private palace, only for the King and his family. Now it is a lush, green and secluded garden. I wonder where is the need for such an extensive change?

:ermm:

But... looking at this picture... yes... a baroque garden in front of the palace would help: http://images.memorix.nl/rce/thumb/1...07780d33ed.jpg

The old garden was completely destroyed because in WWII the Germans used the palace park as a base to launch V1 and V2 missiles to England. The present front garden was a provisoric one but is now there for 60 years...

Marengo 08-29-2014 09:22 AM

I am not sure if the money is only spend on the garden, it must also include the refurbishment of the private quarters and perhaps a few other updates.

Duc_et_Pair 08-29-2014 10:40 AM

Queen Beatrix, known as a perfectioniste pur sang, started her Reign with extensively restored palaces. During her Reign all palaces were kept very well maintenanced to the highest standards. Sometimes even additional (and very expensive) restorations were done, like the magnificent Oranjesael in Huis ten Bosch Palace. Also buildings as the Royal Mews in The Hague, the building of the Royal House Archives and Fagel's Dome (a garden pavillion in the park of Noordeinde) were restored into perfection.

The Royal Palace Amsterdam was in scaffoldings for a long time for a major restoration which brought back the old palace in old and new royal splendour. Het Loo Palace, once the summer residence of the Orange-Nassaus, was completely brought back into 17th C state, it required demolishing of later added floors and annexes. The English landscape park was completely returned into one of the world's most beautiful baroque gardens.

And now this major renovation of Huis ten Bosch Palace again... Having been at the the Palais Royal in Brussels, Buckingham Palace in London and the Palacio Real in Madrid, really.... the Orange-Nassaus have the luck that the Dutch Government is so generous by once again updating the already spic-and-span looking palacesto the wishes of His Majesty...

The Belgians can only dream of it. I can already hear the nagging in the hostile Belgian media. The Nassaus in Luxembourg however can enjoy the pleasure of having perfectly maintenanced and restored palaces as well, like their Orange-Nassau cousins. I have never been at the palais grand-ducal in Luxembourg, but what I saw from it around the wedding of Guillaume looked perfect.

Jacknch 08-29-2014 01:43 PM

:previous:

I wish the Dutch government would help us out over here with Buckingham Palace!

KittyAtlanta 08-29-2014 02:00 PM

I like the starkness of the approach to the palace. It looks formidable, as it should.

Duc_et_Pair 08-29-2014 02:49 PM

At Het Loo Palace there was an English landscape garden as well, like now at Huis ten Bosch Palace. The palace was also plastered in white and during centuries changed with extra floors and annexes. In the 1970's and 1980's the palace was brought back into 17th C state.

Before: http://resources21.kb.nl/gvn/SFA03/S...22820253_X.jpg

After: http://cdn.c.photoshelter.com/img-ge...630-099-A3.jpg

Huis ten Bosch Palace had a baroque garden as well.

This is the original lay-out: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._ten_Bosch.jpg

This was right after WWII - the whole park destroyed by the Germans, for their V1 and V2 missile launchers: http://www.anp-archief.nl/attachment/240631

This was some 35 years ago: clearly an English landscape garden: http://www.anp-archief.nl/attachment/2257878

This was last year: a helicopter lands near Huis ten Bosch Palace, see how green it has become: http://media.nu.nl/m/m1mzxc1a4seb.jpg

Duc_et_Pair 09-17-2014 03:47 AM

Yesterday, Prinsjesdag, saw not only the annual ceremonial assembly of both Chambers of Parliament, it was also the day that the State Budget 2014 was presented. Remarkable in that budget were the quite large amounts which were reserved for the renovation of three royal residences. The amounts are surprising given the fact that under Queen Beatrix all palaces have been brought into tip-top state and were well maintenanced.

Huis ten Bosch Palace will be renovated for € 35 million (appr. US $ 45 million). The State Housing Agency informed that the technical installations (electricity, water, fire prevention, security, etc.) need an uopdate. Major maintenance is also needed for the roofs and the "inner work". Queen Beatrix started to use Huis ten Bosch Palace in 1982. Since then the building has not had major maintenance, according the State Housing Agency. Inspection has also learned that there is asbestos in the palace, which needs to be removed. The Asbestos Report is secret. The State Housing Agency refuses to give insight because the detailed description would also give information which affects the security of the King. There is no public call for bids for these works: also that would affect the security of the King. The works will be done by "selected firms".

Because the King can not use Huis ten Bosch Palace as long as the renovations are under way, he will continue to use his private villa De Eikenhorst. Temporary units will be placed in the park of this villa, to house the particulier secretariate of the King.

Noordeinde Palace, the official residence of the King, will also see a renovation. The staff restaurant will be modernized for € 8 million (apr. US $ 10,5 million).

Noordeinde 66, which is neighbouring and connected to the Noordeinde Palace complex, is renovated to serve as a pied-à-terre for Princess Beatrix. Last year the State informed that the renovation would cost € 900.000,-- (appr. US $ 1,165,000.--). Now it emerges that the costs for that renovation were considerably higher. For this The Hague-residence of Princess Beatrix the prize tag for the renovation is now € 3.25 million (appr. US $ 4,20 million).

The State Housing Agency stressed that with or without royal use, these builings (Grade A listed monuments) need the maintenance and that the costs are largely independent from the move of the new royal family into Huis ten Bosch Palace and the other residences.

Jacknch 09-17-2014 04:00 AM

I think it may all depend of exactly what type of works Beatrix had done on the palaces during the time of her reign. Probably cosmetic works, general renovations and installations, repairs and general maintenance to update and keep in good condition. However, deep renovations to the fabric of the building may be required including upgraded electrics and insulations etc.
Certainly over here in Britain, building regulations have been updated and amended over recent years - my house was built 10 years ago within the relations required at the time. But now things are starting to need replacing with better quality and within new guidelines such as the heating and boiler, windows etc. Anyone know a good plumber?!

Marengo 09-17-2014 12:00 PM

Aparently the money will be spent on the removal of asbestos, new plumbing, new curtains, etc. Technical installations nee dto be renewed, and there are silverfish in the walls, and woodwurms in the wood. Also the security systems are not up-to-date.

According to the RVD the costs are 4000-5000 euros per square meter, which is comparable to simular renovations in monumental buildings.

http://www.rtlnieuws.nl/nieuws/binne...nd-van-beatrix

muriel 09-17-2014 12:08 PM

Its good to hear that the Dutch government has a robust view of maintenance of public buildings, including the royal palaces. I do wish our Parliament might be more willing to make similar on-going investments.

Jacknch 09-17-2014 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by muriel (Post 1703368)
Its good to hear that the Dutch government has a robust view of maintenance of public buildings, including the royal palaces. I do wish our Parliament might be more willing to make similar on-going investments.

I am afraid we're still in the post-war mindset of make do and mend (or rather make do) and we are obviously too poor a nation to be getting ourselves into anything so silly and complicated as on-going investments! Where would it end?
It would require spending a bit of money now to save higher costs later wouldn't it? No, dear - that's too obvious a thing for a governmental department to get itself involved in. For starters, a form would need to be filled in and that would involve the civil servants and we wouldn't want to go down that tricky road!
Best leave it all alone and have a nice cup of tea! ;)

muriel 09-17-2014 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jacknch (Post 1703412)
I am afraid we're still in the post-war mindset of make do and mend (or rather make do) and we are obviously too poor a nation to be getting ourselves into anything so silly and complicated as on-going investments! Where would it end?
It would require spending a bit of money now to save higher costs later wouldn't it? No, dear - that's too obvious a thing for a governmental department to get itself involved in. For starters, a form would need to be filled in and that would involve the civil servants and we wouldn't want to go down that tricky road!
Best leave it all alone and have a nice cup of tea! ;)

Unfortunately what you say appears to be quite close to the truth! :flowers:

Duc_et_Pair 09-17-2014 02:59 PM

I am surprised by the staggering amounts for renovation anyway. Almost 4,5 million Euro just for updating Noordeinde 66 into a pied à terre while in the 1990's it was completely renovated from inside out (I saw pictures of mini-bulldozers inside, only the completely stripped walls were still standing). I am surprised that after such a relatively short period again such a renovation is needed.

And not because Princess Beatrix is going to live there, no, just as a pied-à-terre when she is accidentally in The Hague (it goes beyond my logic why she can not have an appartment at Huis ten Bosch Palace, at Noordeinde Palace or at the royal estate De Horsten which is owned by her, but okay... that is my way of thinking.

:flowers:

When Queen Máxima would like to replace wallhangings in gold silk, to say something, because by sunlight it has faded, then there is a considerable prize tag indeed. And then we are talking about just one salon and there are a lot of salons of course...

Anyway, all expenses are comptrolled by the Auditory Chamber so I assume all is perfectly within the budget and the rules.

:flowers:

muriel 09-19-2014 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair (Post 1703454)
I am surprised by the staggering amounts for renovation anyway. Almost 4,5 million Euro just for updating Noordeinde 66 into a pied à terre while in the 1990's it was completely renovated from inside out (I saw pictures of mini-bulldozers inside, only the completely stripped walls were still standing). I am surprised that after such a relatively short period again such a renovation is needed.

And not because Princess Beatrix is going to live there, no, just as a pied-à-terre when she is accidentally in The Hague (it goes beyond my logic why she can not have an appartment at Huis ten Bosch Palace, at Noordeinde Palace or at the royal estate De Horsten which is owned by her, but okay... that is my way of thinking.

:flowers:

When Queen Máxima would like to replace wallhangings in gold silk, to say something, because by sunlight it has faded, then there is a considerable prize tag indeed. And then we are talking about just one salon and there are a lot of salons of course...

Anyway, all expenses are comptrolled by the Auditory Chamber so I assume all is perfectly within the budget and the rules.

:flowers:

Its not really for me to comment, but is the Dutch monarchy not one of the most expensive on a year-to-year basis?

Duc_et_Pair 09-19-2014 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by muriel (Post 1704206)
Its not really for me to comment, but is the Dutch monarchy not one of the most expensive on a year-to-year basis?

Yes it is in the top, when looking to the costs but these lists are very difficult to compare. It is hard to believe that the Dutch monarchy is on the same level as the British one while there are so many more and so much grander residences, so much more pomp and circumstance, etc. at the British isles. The same counts for Spain. Both Huis ten Bosch Palace as well Noordeinde Palace easily fit in the enormous Palacio Real in Madrid. The costs are very difficult to compare. I refuse to believe that a monarchy with Buckingham Palace, St James' Palace, Kensington Palace, Clarence House, Windsor Castle, the Palace of Holyroodhouse, etc. has the same prize tag as the Dutch monarchy. Impossible. I think the Dutch score so high because they are open and transparent about all direct and indirect costs and have it insightfully assigned to the costs connected with the monarchy. I think Denmark is a good comparison for the Dutch, the prize tag for both monarchies lies between 40 and 50 million Euro (leaving aside the costs of security, palaces, etc.)

I must say that it remains pretty calm about the high costs. Past two days were the debates about the King's Speech and the Budget 2015 but the costs of the Royal House were not mentioned at all. There have been years with more criticism so it appears all parties in Parliament more or less accept that this is the prize tag for the Dutch monarchy and that this is "a reasonable prize".

tommy100 10-29-2014 05:57 AM

its always impossible to compare one monarchy with another and I think in their day to day duties the British Royals seem perhaps more 'grand' so one might expect their costs to be more. However the British Royals would simply never get the sort of money that is been mentioned for the Dutch Royals to update their Palaces/buildings. Their is simply no way that when Charles becomes King for the British Royal Family that he will get 46million (the cost of the renovations at the three Dutch palaces mentioned) to redo Buckingham Palace, Windsor etc. The Dutch in that way are lucky.

Duc_et_Pair 02-13-2015 06:51 AM

For all the nagging of the ladies and gentlemen politicians about the costs of the upkeep of the royal residences ("In the 1980's Queen Beatrix got spic-and-span restored palaces and now they need money-swallowing renovations again?"):

Today in the news it became known that the whole Inner Court Complex (which houses the First Chamber, the Second Chamber, the Council of State and the Department of the Prime Minister) needs to be closed for 5 years. The whole complex need an extensive (and expensive) restoration.

The buildings of the First Chamber (the Senate) have been restored in 1997. The buildings of the Second Chamber (the House of Representatives) have been restored after the enlargement in 1992. The buildings of the Council of State have been restored in 1996. The Trêves Chamber where the Council of Ministers assembles as not so long ago been updated.

All these buildings will now be restored at once, meaning that all named institutions will be re-located for five years. The costs are not known yet but will be astronomic, without doubt. This will shed the costs for the upkeep of the royal residences in a more balanced light for politicians and media.

:flowers:

Lee-Z 05-26-2015 03:42 PM

Apparently the renovation of Huis ten Bosch will cost 60 million euro instead of the originally budgetted 35 million.
Political parties request a debate with prime-minister Rutte to find out why the inctease in budget is that large and whether this could not have been foreseen in the first place.
'Verbouwing Huis ten Bosch valt tientallen miljoenen duurder uit' | NU - Het laatste nieuws het eerst op NU.nl

google translated

amaryllus 05-26-2015 03:43 PM

How do you pronounce this BTW?

An Ard Ri 05-26-2015 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee-Z (Post 1783091)
Apparently the renovation of Huis ten Bosch will cost 60 million euro instead of the originally budgetted 35 million.
Political parties request a debate with prime-minister Rutte to find out why the inctease in budget is that large nd whether this could not have been foreseen.
'Verbouwing Huis ten Bosch valt tientallen miljoenen duurder uit' | NU - Het laatste nieuws het eerst op NU.nl

E60 Million is a lot of money for the restoration of the Huis ten Bosch,is there any reason given as to why the costs have gone up?

Lee-Z 05-26-2015 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by An Ard Ri (Post 1783094)
E60 Million is a lot of money for the restoration of the Huis ten Bosch,is there any reason given as to why the costs have gone up?

Not specifically, as i understand it the matter is yet to be discussed with "the powers that be"; the fact there is no specification of the costs is one of the things that political parties have a problem with (and think the prime minister should explain).
It is a big building which has had very little maintenance in the years that P.Beatrix lived there; there's asbestos to be removed, the electronic wiring needs updating and security needs to be improved...but this was already mentioned for the previous budget of 35m, so i dont' know if there was more that needed work..

Mbruno 05-26-2015 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by amaryllus (Post 1783092)
How do you pronounce this BTW?

Google Translator has a pronunciation key which you can use after typing the words.

Duc_et_Pair 05-26-2015 05:36 PM

The amount is beyond belief, for sure when we take into account that the central part of the palace, the magnificent Oranjesael was already restored for many millions and is not included....


We have to wait if the rumours are true or not.

Marengo 05-26-2015 06:09 PM

Let's hope it is not. if so, it means that the government building service must have been sleeping, 45% extra costs is idiotic. Though the total sum for an old building isn't all that surprising. Let's hope that the budget for the parlement buildings -which will be mch higher- is accurate.

Marengo 06-19-2015 02:25 PM

The government has disclosed some more information about the works at Palace Huis ten Bosch:

- total costs will be 59 million Euros
- before the works start, the Orange-Hall will be open to the public for free
- doing the works in phases, as suggested earlier, would have costed 14 million Euros extra
- there is more asbestos than expected, the outside staircase and the chimneys are in a bad condition.
- the works will take 40 months and will be finished by the end of 2018.
- the prime minister admits that this has to be better arranged in the future
- the opposition party D66 argues that the costs make the king vulnerable for criticism.

Huis ten Bosch voor 59 miljoen opgeknapt|Binnenland| Telegraaf.nl

An Ard Ri 06-19-2015 03:18 PM

E59 million and 2018 finish date,lets hope they don't uncover any more asbestos!

eya 06-19-2015 03:40 PM

What to tell me being a poor and bankrupt country for the greatness and richness of another country . I'm speechless :notworthy:

lucien 06-20-2015 07:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by amaryllus (Post 1783092)
How do you pronounce this BTW?

Syllable after syllable...and then you have the Dutch equivalent for Valued Added Tax....:smile:

Duc_et_Pair 06-20-2015 07:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marengo (Post 1793980)
The government has disclosed some more information about the works at Palace Huis ten Bosch:

[...]

- the opposition party D66 argues that the costs make the king vulnerable for criticism.

[...]

I understood it were not the costs (the King can do nothing about that, as it is the State istelf which decides about the housing of the head of state) but the decision of the Government to do nothing about the (lack of) Income Tax of the King. The King receives an annual allowance which is netto. The Government rejected the idea in making it bruto and taxate it. Some parties however say that this would then become in line with all Dutchmen: "All Dutchmen pay Income Tax, also the King".

The Prime Minister argued that the income of the King is vested in the Constitution and that it should require a lengthy and difficult revision of the Constitution and "we have other priorities". The Prime Minister also stated that then -for an example- the living in palaces like Huis ten Bosch, the use of royal cars should become taxable because it is "payment in natura" but at the other side the King is King 24 hours a day, and what is work, what is private, when it comes to the use of palaces or transportation? It seems the Government has asked fiscalists on the matter and it was not so simple as it looks like. The most simple situation is indeed just giving a netto allowance, the use of royal residences and the use of transportation as agreed in various Acts and Decrees.

But... taking in account that Huis ten Bosch palace has been restored in the late 1970's and early 1980's, that the Oranjesael has been extensively restored a few years ago (for staggering amounts as well) and that then rest of the relatively small palace requires so much money is beyond belief. But again: it is not the King but the State which decides in this matter.

eya 06-20-2015 07:44 AM

Bravo to the Dutch State. They take care for the Palaces and their King. Besides they are new Kings and they must live in the new Palace.

Duc_et_Pair 06-20-2015 08:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eya (Post 1794264)
Bravo to the Dutch State. They take care for the Palaces and their King. Besides they are new Kings and they must live in the new Palace.

The Constitution requires that the King is given an income and also given royal residence(s). In furtherer legislation is worked out who belongs to the Royal House (Royal House Act 2002), which members of the Royal House receive an annual income (Act on the Financial Statute of the Royal House 2008) and three palaces were specifically given a royal destination (Royal Decree concerning the appointment of palaces to be given at the disposal of the King, 1980).

But... would the Goverment have said: "We think Huis ten Bosch Palace is more than splendid enough. It is a worthy and dignified house for His Majesty", then the King will have accepted it. To me, just an onlooker, Huis ten Bosch looks in good state to me. Far better than the Royal Palace in Brussels (Belgium) or Buckingham Palace. I have the idea that the State Housing Agency applies the highest possible standards for this (A-listed) monument. That is nice but I have the idea all Dutch are bewildered by the astonishing costs of it all.

:ermm::ohmy:

Ilse 06-20-2015 08:17 AM

I wonder why the don't pay any rent.

Duc_et_Pair 06-20-2015 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eya (Post 1794264)
Bravo to the Dutch State. They take care for the Palaces and their King. Besides they are new Kings and they must live in the new Palace.

Compared with the Royal Palace in Brussels, which I visited last year, or Buckingham Palace, which I visited a couple of years ago, the Dutch palaces seem in splendid condition. The Royal Palace in Amsterdam, Noordeinde Palace in The Hague, Huis ten Bosch Palace in The Hague, Het Loo Palace in Apeldoorn (mainly a museal destination but sometimes used by the royal family), Princess Beatrix' pied-à-terre at Noordeinde 66, the Royal Mews in The Hague and in Apeldoorn, Het Oude Loo castle in Apeldoorn, really it all looks in splendid state. Only Soestdijk Palace really is visibly worn out and needs a good restoration.

I think that all Dutch are simply bewildered by the astonishing costs. I think that all Dutch will agree that the head of state should have a worthy and dignified residence at his/her disposal but that a building like Huis ten Bosch, which seems quite in good condition, comes with that prize tag....

:ohmy:

Duc_et_Pair 06-20-2015 08:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ilse (Post 1794271)
I wonder why the don't pay any rent.

In the Constitution is stated that the State gives a residence to the King. Most likely this was a "compensation" for the confiscation of the Orange-Nassau properties by the same State before the French occupation.

When the Constitution says that the State gives a residence at your disposal, then it is not logic to say: "You have to pay rent". And it is also the same pocket A - pocket B discussion. "We give you an income and housing. And oh yes, from that income , via an U-turn, we will take income back". Keeping it netto seems the most transparent.

Marengo 06-20-2015 09:52 AM

The prime minister doesn't pay rent for the Catshuis. foreign presidents do not pay nything for their palaces either. They use it for their function after all, as does the king. And I am sure that the Dutch public does not want their head-of-state living in a new two-under-one-roof house in Capelle a/d IJssel.

I do not mind the costs as long as the money is not spent on private wishes of the king and his family.

Duc_et_Pair 06-20-2015 10:22 AM

The problem with rent is also that the King is enforced to live at this place, heavily guarded. So he does not have the choice: "I want to live in Capelle aan den IJssel" because he still has to function as the head of state.

And indeed, Joachim Gauck pays no rent for Schloss Bellevue or Villa Hammerschmidt. François Hollande pays no rent for the Palais de l'Élysée, the l'Hôtel de Matigny, the Palais de l'Alma (where he organizes his rendez-vous with his maîtresses), the Fort de Brégançon at the Riviera or the hunting pavillion (Pavillion de la Lanterne) at the Domain de Versailles (which functioned as the love nest for Nicolas Sarkozy and his maîtresse, now his present spouse)....

eya 06-20-2015 10:42 AM

The french people play ball alone. They have a little house for the president to stay , another little house for the rendez-vous of the president and another little Fort at the riviera for the vacation. Im speechless again.

Duc_et_Pair 06-20-2015 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eya (Post 1794305)
The french people play ball alone. They have a little house for the president to stay , another little house for the rendez-vous of the president and another little Fort at the riviera for the vacation. Im speechless again.

Heu... the Palais de l'Élysée, the Palais de l'Alma and the l'Hôtel de Matigny do not classify as "little" , I think...

:lol:

Stefan 06-20-2015 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair (Post 1794291)
The problem with rent is also that the King is enforced to live at this place, heavily guarded. So he does not have the choice: "I want to live in Capelle aan den IJssel" because he still has to function as the head of state.

And indeed, Joachim Gauck pays no rent for Schloss Bellevue or Villa Hammerschmidt. François Hollande pays no rent for the Palais de l'Élysée, the l'Hôtel de Matigny, the Palais de l'Alma (where he organizes his rendez-vous with his maîtresses), the Fort de Brégançon at the Riviera or the hunting pavillion (Pavillion de la Lanterne) at the Domain de Versailles (which functioned as the love nest for Nicolas Sarkozy and his maîtresse, now his present spouse)....


Actually the german President's don't live at Bellevue Castle. The only one who lived there weas Roman Herzog. The others have/had a Villa in Berlin-Dahelm at their disposal where they live.

Duc_et_Pair 06-20-2015 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stefan (Post 1794317)
Actually the german President's don't live at Bellevue Castle. The only one who lived there weas Roman Herzog. The others have/had a Villa in Berlin-Dahelm at their disposal where they live.

Ah that fooled me. A few weeks ago I gave seen a documentary about Schloss Bellevue ("and it's secrets") on ZDF, including footage of Bundespräsident Herr Roman Herzog and his spouse Frau Christiane allowing the camera inside the Schloss and following them...

Villa Dahlem looks like a nice place to live but I bet this is purely for living, all official acts and represenations take place at Schloss Bellevue? I suspect the Bundespräsident tries "to escape from office" because when you live in a private wing of the Schloss, you are still living at the office, so to speak.

Duc_et_Pair 06-21-2015 06:17 PM

The Inner Court (where the Second Chamber, the First Chamber, the Council of Ministers and the Hall of Knights are) needs an equally major renovation as Huis ten Bosch Palace. The costs will be astronomic.

When Parliament decides the works will go ahead, people will see that these projects simply come with a price tag, like the renovations of the Royal Palace Amsterdam, the Rijksmuseum, the Mauritshuis in the Hague, the Catshuis in The Hague (residence of the Prime Minister) etc. were arch-expensive projects too. The people will realize that the costs for the renovation of Huis ten Bosch palace is not something unique but comparable with all named projects.

:ermm:

eya 06-21-2015 07:14 PM

So the dutch people must be a very happy because the renovation of the Huis ten Bosch Palace the cost only 59 million euros?(:ohmy:)
What are you doing exactly ? Attempts to justify the unjustifiable?

Duc_et_Pair 06-22-2015 02:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eya (Post 1794767)
So the dutch people must be a very happy because the renovation of the Huis ten Bosch Palace the cost only 59 million euros?(:ohmy:)
What are you doing exactly ? Attempts to justify the unjustifiable?

It looks "injustifable" and people will nag about it, but when you look at the given examples all restorations of historic buildings come with mysteriously awful big prize tags. No idea why it is cheaper to build three new palaces than restore an old one but tja... it is.

By the way, every year the State donates hundreds of millions for the upkeep of A-listed monuments. It does not matter if the State owns it or not. It can be privately owned or onwed by a (family) foundation and be applicable for state subsidy because it is seen as part of the national patrimonium and worth to be saved for history. For an example, the restoration of a private property under way: Château Neubourg near Maastricht before and after the restoration (still not finished). It does not matter if the owner is rich or not, anyone can fill in an application for subsidy.

eya 06-22-2015 03:32 AM

That all you say is logical. And is logical of course all this palaces and historic buildings to need renovation. But is just (for me at least) very scandalous this prize tags.
But anyway the every state know better what can i say.

lucien 06-23-2015 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eya (Post 1794851)
That all you say is logical. And is logical of course all this palaces and historic buildings to need renovation. But is just (for me at least) very scandalous this prize tags.
But anyway the every state know better what can i say.

Indeed.We are a above wealthy state that takes care of it's heritage,we are proud of that,yes.And it's not scandulous at all if one wishes to keep up the place and pass it on to future generations...unlike Tatoi,sad enough,...People might nag as they do,but they will forget about it soon enough.The Head of State needs an apropiate representative dwelling,and that is what the State has to provide.After all,the State pinched it all from the RF in the 1790's...

rubies 06-23-2015 09:42 AM

Sounds like they need to compare contractors......haha. I cant imagine the cost of these kinds of places but Im all for it.

eya 06-23-2015 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lucien (Post 1795237)
Indeed.We are a above wealthy state that takes care of it's heritage,we are proud of that,yes.And it's not scandulous at all if one wishes to keep up the place and pass it on to future generations...unlike Tatoi,sad enough,...People might nag as they do,but they will forget about it soon enough.The Head of State needs an apropiate representative dwelling,and that is what the State has to provide.After all,the State pinched it all from the RF in the 1790's...

Yes you have right saying how all this places must to keep up and to pass the next generations.
Also how people always forget . Yes that is happen the people always forget and this is sad sometimes.
About Tatoi very sad indeed. But with the history we have my country just can't do it nothing different .
Generally agree with you i don't say something else just can i continue to think is scandalous that prizes? :sad:

lucien 07-04-2015 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eya (Post 1795261)
Yes you have right saying how all this places must to keep up and to pass the next generations.
Also how people always forget . Yes that is happen the people always forget and this is sad sometimes.
About Tatoi very sad indeed. But with the history we have my country just can't do it nothing different .
Generally agree with you i don't say something else just can i continue to think is scandalous that prizes? :sad:

NAI!:smile:

And I say its peanuts in light of what it represents and the wealth we live in...It is worth it,every penny!

Marengo 11-30-2015 03:02 PM

Today the last batch of tickets to the Oranjezaal has been put online.

I was able to make a reservation. There are still quite a few places available:

https://www.bezoekdeoranjezaal.nl/#

An Ard Ri 12-24-2016 07:57 AM

Some nice wintry photos of the Palace Huis ten Bosch in The Hague.

PPE Agency

eya 12-25-2016 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by An Ard Ri (Post 1949472)
Some nice wintry photos of the Palace Huis ten Bosch in The Hague.

PPE Agency

"23-12-2016 The Hague Palace Huis ten Bosch in The Hague, the new residence to be of the Dutch King and Queen in 2017. "

Beautiful pictures!!

Duc_et_Pair 02-12-2017 11:38 AM

Objectives of the extensive restoration of Huis ten Bosch Palace, the future private residence of the King, were/are also the huge paintings by Aert Schouman (1710-1792) which are in use as wallhangings for one of the salons of the palace.

The paintings depict the Menagerie of Prince Willem V of Orange-Nassau, Stadtholder of the United Provinces (father of King Willem I of the Netherlands). Because of the restoration of the palace (as a private residence usually not accessible for public), it is now temporarily possible for the public to see the wallhangings of King Willem-Alexander and Queen Máxima: a selection of 5 panels will be exhibited in Dordrechts Museum.

Queen Máxima will visit the exhibition and receive the first book which describes these colourful artworks in detail: picture

The panels form a decor of the salon, as if the Stadtholder was in the nature, surrounded by animals: picture and picture. That sensation will not be reached with only 5 panels in the exhibition (some are still in the restoration studio, or too vulnerable for transport)

Duc_et_Pair 02-12-2017 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marengo (Post 1843578)
Today the last batch of tickets to the Oranjezaal has been put online.

I was able to make a reservation. There are still quite a few places available:

https://www.bezoekdeoranjezaal.nl/#

What was your impression of the palace and the Oranjesael?

An Ard Ri 02-12-2017 01:11 PM

When is the Palace restoration due to be completed?

Marengo 02-12-2017 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by An Ard Ri (Post 1960649)
When is the Palace restoration due to be completed?

The planning is that the works are done by the end of 2018. But these kind of projects seldom go as planned.

Quote:

What was your impression of the palace and the Oranjesael?
The first impression is formed by the entree, the driveway and square, which all are smaller than for palaces abroad, as is the palace itself. We went there in winter & on a grey day which made the garden look more depressing than it actually is. The trees in the garden are not very special or old, as they were only planted after the war.

There is some charm in the relatively small proportions of the building and an understated elegance in the severe facade. I can imagine that the small size makes the palace a nice place to live.

Of the inside of the palace we got to see the basement, staircase and the Orange hall. Again, things seemed smaller than on photographs. But the Orange hall was more stunning in reality than on photos and in an excellent condition. It is special to be surrounded by paintings & history from all sides. I could have spent a day in the hall, checking all little details and such. It surely is the finest hall of its kind in this part of Europe, only rivalled by the ceiling of Westminister's Banqueting Hall by Van Dyck.

From what we got to see I did not see the need for maintenance. But if things are well painted one seldom does.

Duc_et_Pair 02-12-2017 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by An Ard Ri (Post 1960649)
When is the Palace restoration due to be completed?

The 60 million Euro costing renovation of Huis ten Bosch (minus the already earlier restored Oranjesael - the main hall) is scheduled to be finished in the end of 2018. This means that then the King will have lived for 5 years in his private villa before moving to Huis ten Bosch. But that is his own choice. He could have lived in another residences. I think the King is attached to the cosy family life in lush and green Wassenaar before making the move to the splendid 17th C salons of Huis ten Bosch.

Duc_et_Pair 02-12-2017 02:16 PM

Thanks. Yes, when I see interiors from "abroad" and then the Dutch ones, it seems to me the Oranges remained faithful to the original designs. A 17th C palace with 17th C salons. Or with salons and appartments in later 18th and 19thC style but with respect for the original building. There are no bonbonnières with opulent whirls and curls, it all remains relatively subdued but the quality is often telling: the paintings of Jabob Jordaens, the stucco by Daniel Marot, the marble sculptures by Artus Quellinus, the facades by Pieter Post, it were all outstanding craftsmen and it shows, to my humble opinion.

eya 04-12-2017 12:15 PM

"12-04-2017 Palace Huis ten Bosch in The Hague, the new residence to be of the Dutch King and Queen.
The renovation of the exterior, interieur, security and gardens are estimated for 59 million euro and will be ready end 2018, beginning 2019."

PPE Agency

Duc_et_Pair 04-12-2017 01:39 PM

The costs are gigantic and the strange thing is: the last major restoration ended in 1983 and it is remarkable that the whole palace has to go back in scaffoldings again, after only some three decades. For a couple of months the magnificent central hall (already restored for a fortune, a few years ago) was open to the public. The rest of the palace did not make the impression that a 60 million Euro renovation was needed...

An Ard Ri 04-14-2017 04:29 PM

There seems to be some serious restoration work taking place at the Palace,I look forward to seeing the finished results!

lucien 04-28-2017 04:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by An Ard Ri (Post 1976176)
There seems to be some serious restoration work taking place at the Palace,I look forward to seeing the finished results!

Serious indeed!A repeat of the works carried out on the Royal Palace here in Amsterdam soem years ago,once finished the works started soon afterwards again as asbestos et tout still had to be removed.It took years to clean up and restore the whole caboodle much to the dismay of the then Queen Beatrix.And right she was.Same happened here,the concoctions of the 80's won't do in this day and age.

Marengo 04-28-2017 04:49 AM

I suppose the king and queen will get concoctions of the 2010s instead. The king said that their private area will get 'openslaande deuren' to the garden. These doors are the dream of any bakfiets moeder with her own bouwkavel in Amsterdam IJburg.

Anyway, I am sure the government building service would not have allowed the demolition of any old walls, especially not to the exterior.

Duc_et_Pair 04-28-2017 06:04 AM

To my best knowledge there are already "openslaande deuren" to the garden, at the backside of Huis ten Bosch Palace. There is a platform or balcony between the souterrain and the "ground floor" (which is more the first floor) if my memory does not fool me.

Marengo 04-28-2017 06:47 AM

Indeed, but the king said they would be installed in their private appartments on the groundfloor. I suppose that the private area will be in a wing of the palace, as it was the case with Queen Beatrix.

Duc_et_Pair 04-28-2017 08:24 AM

Ach ja, as long as it is tastefully done and completely in line with the exterior of the monument, I am fine with it. After all it is also a house for the royal family, and no museum ;-)

Marengo 04-28-2017 08:58 AM

True, perhaps a few personal touches makes the building even more interesting in the long run. The added doors in the Oranjesael by Cateau Schimmelpenninck seemed to have survived the test of time...

An Ard Ri 06-06-2017 07:10 PM

Some Recent photos of the work being carried out at the Palace Huis ten Bosch in The Hague.

PPE Agency

Duc_et_Pair 06-07-2017 08:29 AM

The palace will be in sparkling state, that is for sure (but it never looked in poor state, I must say). In WWII the park was completely destroyed as it was used by the Germans to launch VI and VII missiles to the United Kingdom. As a consequence the allied forces regularly bombed the site, with heavy damage to palace and park.

Picture of the completely destroyed park, with bunkers, and a damaged Huis ten Bosch.

In the 1950's a provisoric garden was created: picture.

Today still the same lay-out exists, but of course the trees have grown.: picture.

I have understood also the garden will be restored/restyled, whatever the name. I am curious how that will look. A return to a formal garden à la Het Loo looks unlikely to me.

eya 09-12-2017 11:50 AM

The renovation of the Palace continue. Two aerial pictures from August 23

http://0.t.cdn.belga.be/belgaimage:1...d05&m=ocmmllha
http://2.t.cdn.belga.be/belgaimage:1...d05&m=cddfcdnn

Blog Real 09-12-2017 01:31 PM

Will the Kings live in this palace?

eya 09-12-2017 01:45 PM

Yes when the Palace is ready about the end of 2018 and beginning of 2019.

Marengo 09-12-2017 02:03 PM

It seems that the garden will be rather modern. At least if the flower beds on the left of the photo are meant to stay.

Duc_et_Pair 11-14-2017 12:13 PM

The restoration of Huis ten Bosch will be more expensive again. The original budget was 35 million Euro. Then it became 59 million Euro. Now it has been set on 63 million Euro.

Reasons: initially only parts of the palace outdoor steps would be replaced, now the whole exterior steps will be completely renewed. The same with the roof: initially parts of the roof would be replaced, but by hindsight the whole roof will be renewed as there is woodrot in beams bearing the roof. There needs to be more asbestos removed than initially expected. Closer inspection learned that some stucco works needs more attention than initially foreseen etc.

Luckily the economy is booming and the State has a Budget Surplus, so there is not that much rumour about the astronomic costs for the private residence of the King. It remains a mystery that a palace which had been extensively restored in the 1980's needs such an immense operation again.

JR76 11-14-2017 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair (Post 2036690)
It remains a mystery that a palace which had been extensively restored in the 1980's needs such an immense operation again.

I was thinking the same thing as I read your post. The palace was renovated not that long ago so why this need for a new massive renovation so soon? Only reason I can think of is that they messed up last time and for instance closed of any possibilities of natural ventilation leading to moist & rot in the structure of the house.

Duc_et_Pair 11-15-2017 02:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR76 (Post 2036698)
I was thinking the same thing as I read your post. The palace was renovated not that long ago so why this need for a new massive renovation so soon? Only reason I can think of is that they messed up last time and for instance closed of any possibilities of natural ventilation leading to moist & rot in the structure of the house.

According the site of the Rijksvastgoedbedrijf (State Estate Agency) there was no restoration in the 1980's.

In WWII the park of Huis ten Bosch was used by the Germans as a launch base for V1 and v2 missiles directed at England. Retaliating raids heavily damaged the park and the building. Picture of Huis ten Bosch at the end of the war. You can see the bunkers in the park.

From 1948 until 1957 the damages to the park and the building were repaired.

From 1977 to 1981 there were "modernization of installations" (so no lentghy restoration as often thought) = picture

From 1998 to 2001 the Oranjesael (picture) was restored

From 2016 to 2019 Huis ten Bosch is undergoing major maintenance as well restoration works: picture.

Duc_et_Pair 11-16-2017 07:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eya (Post 2018189)
The renovation of the Palace continue. Two aerial pictures from August 23

http://0.t.cdn.belga.be/belgaimage:1...d05&m=ocmmllha
http://2.t.cdn.belga.be/belgaimage:1...d05&m=cddfcdnn

I have never expected the renovation of the palace to be só costly. Together with the restoration of the Oranjesael (11 million) the whole project will have cost 74 million Euro. In essence for just a relatively little palace. ( :eek: ).

Soon the restoration works will start for the Inner Court complex (picture), which is budgetted on no less than 500 million Euro. ( :eek: )

Marengo 11-16-2017 11:32 AM

I suppose they are not renovating the Hall of Knights, as that was done a few years ago? The Orange Hall is the most elaborate interior of the country, The Inner Court has nothing that can be compared to it.

It would not be surprising if the costs for the Inner Court will also exceed the budget. It always does.. ;).


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:21 AM.

Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2019
Jelsoft Enterprises