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Julia 01-02-2004 08:31 PM

Monaco's succession issues
 
Hopefully Prince Rainier will recover, however, as he gets older and as his health continues to decline the question of whether or not Albert will marry becomes a greater issue. What do you all believe are the real chances that Albert will surprise us and marry?

If he doesn't then Andrea is potentially the next prince of Monaco. If Andrea becomes his uncle's heir won't he have to be "adopted" and take the Grimaldi name? Also, at what age might we see this happen (that is Andrea's age)?? 20? 21? 25?

Sg1fan 01-02-2004 08:59 PM

The older Albert gets without marrying the more of a chance this has of happening. I think that the fact that he's taking part in formal engagements says alot. I wonder, however if his mom would step aside as Rainier's mom did. Caroline is technically to inherit before Andrea.

Alexandria 01-02-2004 09:02 PM

Another question: If Andreas follows his uncle in succession to the throne, would he be made a Prince then? And do a sudden 'crash course' in princely duties?

It would be a tremendous change to Andreas life if the succession laws were changed to make Andreas follow Albert. He would certainly have a title and royal duties after 20+ years of living life pretty much as his own.

Binny 01-02-2004 09:35 PM

I don't think Prince Albert will marry now. He's had every chance to meet the 'right' girl.

I think Andrea will follow Albert as ruler of Monaco. If anything were to happen to Albert, I think Caroline would step aside for her son to take over.

In my opinion, Caroline would do so happily, knowing that her son and her grandchildren will be the rulers of Monaco...

:flower:

Dennism 01-02-2004 09:56 PM

I'd rather see Caroline as ruler of Monaco then Andrea.

Alexandria 01-02-2004 10:16 PM

I fully admit to knowing very little about succession laws and rights, in Monaco and with other monarchies. So here is my question: When Caroline married Ernst, she received (?) a higher rank than her title at the time of Princess of Monaco, is that right? She became HRH Princess Caroline of Hanover, instead of Her Serene Highness, Princess Caroline of Monaco.

With this fact in mind, as the wife of a Prince of Hanover, would Caroline not be removed from the line of succession in Monaco? I know that Ernst has no country to rule over or inherit to rule, but in title only, would Caroline not be removed from succeeding her brother in Monaco?

USCtrojan 01-02-2004 10:33 PM

WOW! That is a good issue. One would like to think that because of her marriage to Ernst that she would be in a way denied the rights of succession for fear that Ernst would interfear. I know that this would never happen.... just because of the fact that Ernst doesn't have a throne to rule, but only in reality a head of the family with a title....

As for Albert adopting Andrea to succeed him? I don't think that it is necisary(sp) anymore to do this, as when the constitution was changed allowing Caroline to succeed followed by her heirs, Andrea would (does) realisticly now how rights to the throne, and if and when Albert succeeds, he wont need to adopt Andrea.

Chanel

Sg1fan 01-02-2004 10:44 PM

No, he doesn't have to adopt Andrea, but Caroline has to formally step aside. Something she's never said publically she's prepared to do. Technically the reading is that Andrea can't be Crown Prince unless Albert dies without issue UNLESS he's adopted. Because the title belongs to his children. My guess is that at some point when he got older he'd do that so that the title would belong to Andrea.

Hatsumomo 01-02-2004 10:45 PM

Hello, I’m new here and it’s my first post. I don’t know if I have to make a personal appearance and where.
About this topic, I’ve saw something about this. From heraldica.org:

"The Current Line of Succession
The line of succession is determined by application of the Constitution of 1962, as revised in 2002, the treaty of 2002 with France (cited in article 1 of the Constitution), the house laws of 1882 as modified in 2002, and by Monegasque law where applicable.

From 1918 to 2002, the constitution and the treaty with France restricted the line of succession to the "direct or adoptive" line of the reigning Prince (art. 3 of the Treaty). Article 10 of the Constitution, as it read until 2002, excluded collateral succession, including the descent of Rainier's sister Antoinette as well as the Urachs and any other collateral branches.

The change to the succession laws in 2002
A law of 2 April 2002 modified article 10. Adoption is now ruled out, and the succession passes, upon death or abdication, to the direct legitimate descent of the previous prince, failing which to his siblings and their descent, failing which to a collateral heir chosen by the Regency Council and the Crown Council in agreement (the composition of the Crown Council is set in art. 75 of the constitution and includes 7 members appointed for 3 years, 4 nominated by the Prince and 3 by the legislature; the composition of the Regency Council is determined by the House laws).

Thus, if Albert succeeds, the throne can now pass after him to his sisters and their children. The new law, however, restricts succession to persons holding Monegasque citizenship at the time of the demise of the previous prince. Laws governing Monegasque citizenship (which is no longer defined in the Constitution) should be promulgated soon.

Although the event is very unlikely, should Rainier die or abdicate with no surviving issue, then the crown passes automatically to his sister Antoinette or her surviving issue. Should One of Rainier's children or grandchildren succeed him, then Antoinette and her issue cease to be automatically in the line of succession, but they remain potential heirs in the event of Rainier's line dying out completely.

At present, the order of succession (ignoring the restriction to persons who are Monegasque citizens at the time of the demise of the crown) is thus:

HSH Prince Albert, Hereditary Prince, (b. 14 March 1958) marquis des Baux by ordinance of March 16, 1958
HRH the Princess of Hanover (Princess Caroline, b. 23 Jan 1957), widow of Stefano Casiraghi (1960-90)
Andrea Casiraghi (b. 8 Jun 1984)
Pierre Casiraghi (b. 5 Sep 1987)
Charlotte Casiraghi (b. 3 Aug 1986)
Alexandra of Hanover (b. 20 July 1999)
HSH Princess Stephanie (b. 1 Feb 1965), married June 1995 to Daniel Ducruet (b. 1964)
Louis Ducruet (b. 26 Nov 1992)
Pauline Ducruet (b. 4 May 1994)
HSH Princess Antoinette (b. 28 Dec 1920)
Christian de Massy (b. 17 Jan 1949)
Brice de Massy (b. 1988)
Antoine de Massy (b. 1997)
Laetizia de Massy (b. 1971)
Elizabeth-Ann de Massy (b. 1947)
Jean-Léonard Taubert Natta (b. 1974)
Mélanie de Lusignan (b. 1985)
Keith Sebastian Knecht (b. 1972)
Although Stephanie's children were born before her marriage, Monegasque civil law, like French law, provides that natural children are fully and completely legitimized by the marriage of their parents (article 227 of the Monegasque Civil Code states in part: "Les enfants nés hors mariage, autres que les enfants adultérins, sont légitimés par le mariage subséquent de leurs père et mère, lorsque ceux-ci les ont légalement reconnus avant leur mariage ou qu'ils les reconnaissent au moment de la célébration." while art. 229 states: "Les enfants légitimés par le mariage subséquent auront les mêmes droits que s'ils étaient nés de ce mariage"). They are thus apt to succeed. Stéphanie's last child Camille Marie Kelly Grimaldi (b. 15 Jul 1998) of undeclared father, is not (yet) legitimate and thus not in line.

Rainier III's sister is HSH Princess Antoinette, born Antoinette Grimaldi, who had three children, by Alexandre Noghès: Elisabeth-Ann (b. 1947), Christian (b. 1949), Christine (1951-89), They were legitimated by the marriage of their parents in 1951. They were named at birth Grimaldi, but by ordinance of November 15, 1951 their names were all changed to "de Massy" (source: Christian de Massy: Palace: my life in the royal family of Monaco. London: Bodley Head, 1986). They all had issue. They and their issue of monegasque nationality could be chosen as successors in case a reigning prince dies or abdicates without issue and without siblings having issue. However, they cannot be placed in an order of succession, since the choice of which collateral heir would be called to the throne is entirely up to the Regency Council and the Crown Council.

The House Law of 29 May 2002 provides additional regulations. The prince can abdicate. The heir (apparent or presumptive) is called Hereditary Prince. The hereditary prince can renounce his rights in writing. Marriages of members of the family must be approved by the prince; if a member marries without approval, he and his issue are excluded from the succession, unless the marriage ends without any issue before a demise of the crown. The house law also provides in detail for regencies."

Hugs and/or kisses

Dennism 01-02-2004 10:56 PM

Thanks, Hatsumomo, for the information and welcome to the board.

Sg1fan 01-02-2004 10:58 PM

According to something I once read on the official www.gouv.mc website, now not there of course, the official last name had changed for Camille. I believe at some point Stephanie did list her father when the law changed.

Alexandria 01-02-2004 11:25 PM

But Camille isn't on the above list posted by Hatsumomo. Why is that?

kittencrews 01-03-2004 12:16 AM

I believe I read Camille wasn't in line to the "throne" because Stephanie hadn't announced who her father was... but that could be wrong

monos26 02-05-2004 03:52 PM

Monaco's succession issues
 
If Albert doesn't marry, who will rule when he dies? Caroline's son? Or will it go to Caroline when Rainier dies?

H.M. Margrethe 02-05-2004 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by monos26@Feb 5th, 2004 - 2:52 pm
If Albert doesn't marry, who will rule when he dies?  Caroline's son?  Or will it go to Caroline when Rainier dies?
I say no one will ruel Monarco hehe just kidding just kidding. :P :P :P

No to be serius i think it is going to be one of Carolins children she is older than her sister and she is the first lady of Monarco sadly she has marryed a man who can´t crontrole his temper and i don´t haf to tell the name of the man do i ??
:woot: :woot:

kittencrews 02-05-2004 08:27 PM

The line is

Prince Albert
Princess Caroline
Andrea
Pierre
Charlotte
Princess Alexandra
Princess Stephanie
Louis
Pauline
Camille

montecarlo 02-05-2004 11:31 PM

Camille is the only grandchild of Grace and Rainier who is not in the line of succession. Since her parents, Stephanie and Jean Raymond never married, she is considered illegitimate. In order for Camille to be granted succession rights her parents must marry or the reigning prince must adopt her. The law states that only legitimate children have rights to ascend the throne of Monaco.

smdouglas 02-06-2004 01:07 PM

To directly answer your question:

If Albert doesn't marry, Albert will most likely rule until he is in his 70 or 80s. He has been trained to rule the country and (other than Prince Rainier) is the only one in the family who is qualified to do so.

That being the case, Andrea will only be close to 60 and hopefully be trained to rule - if he is selected to do so.

Alexandria 02-07-2004 01:44 AM

Albert and the topic of marriage go hand in hand and seem to be very popular; here is an older poll with comments from members about why they didn't think Albert was married yet:

Poll: Why isn't Albert Married?

Gisele Laetitia 03-31-2004 04:55 AM

Hey guys!
I know this topic has been kind of deserted :rolleyes:....but::
You were all talking about ALBERT not getting married, but you would have the same problem
with Andrea!!! Knowing he is also a little of a playboy, I dont see him getting married before he's like 30! I mean, in Monaco, in order to maintain inheritance of the throne, wouldnt you have to be married?? For me, it would be logical, that Caroline would rule, and áfter her Andrea would rule, cause, be honest here y'all, Andrea won't be married that soon right!!??
ANyway, let me know (please) what you all think about this....
Bye!!!


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