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nudge67 08-10-2008 03:30 AM

Alternate Succession For The British Crown
 
Alternative Orders of Succession
Succession of the Britsh Crown, from 1901

(not taking abdications or Catholic excusions into account)

Cognatic Primogeniture is where male heirs take precedence over female, with children representing their deceased ancestors; and the older child precedes the younger. Currently used by Denmark, Monaco and Spain; and previously by Brazil, Greece and Portugal.
  • King Edward VII (1901-1910)
  • King George V (1910-1936) – eldest son
  • King Edward VIII (1936-1972) – eldest son
  • HM Queen Elizabeth II (1972- present) – eldest niece
  • HRH The Prince Charles (Heir Apparent) – eldest son
  • HRH Prince William (2nd Heir Apparent) – eldest son
Absolute Primogeniture is where the right of succession passes to the eldest child of the sovereign, regardless of gender, females enjoying the same right of succession as males.
Belgium, the Netherlands, Norway and Sweden all switched to this system in the 1980’s.
  • King Edward VII (1901-1910)
  • King George V (1910-1936) – eldest son
  • King Edward VIII (1936-1972) – eldest son
  • HM Queen Elizabeth II (since 1972) – eldest niece
  • HRH The Prince Charles (Heir Apparent) – eldest son
  • HRH Prince William (2nd Heir Apparent) – eldest son
Agnatic Primogeniture, also known as Salic Law, entirely excludes females from the hereditary succession. This was practised by most continental European monarchies, as well as Japan and Nepal. In some cases, females could inherit upon the extinction of every male in the order of succession.
  • King Edward VII (1901-1910)
  • King George V (1910-1936) – eldest son
  • King Edward VIII (1936-1972) – eldest son
  • King Henry IX (1972-1974) –only surviving brother
  • HM King Richard IV (since 1974) – the current Duke of Gloucester
  • HRH The Prince Alexander (Heir Apparent) – the current Earl of Ulster
  • HRH Prince Xan (2nd Heir Apparent) – the current Lord Culloden
Agnatic Seniority is where thesuccession to the throne passes to the monarch's next-eldest brother (even if the monarch has his own sons), and then only to the first monarch's sons (the next generation) after males of the eldest generation have all been exhausted. This is the system used in Saudi Arabia, and was also in use in Ethiopia and Russia.
  • King Edward VII (1901-1910)
  • King Arthur (1910-1942) –only surviving brother
  • King Edward VIII (1942-1972) – eldest grand-nephew
  • King Henry IX (1972-1974) –only surviving brother
  • HM King Richard IV (since 1974) – the current Duke of Gloucester
  • HRH The Prince Alexander (Heir Apparent) – the current Earl of Ulster
  • HRH Prince Xan (2nd Heir Apparent) – the current Lord Culloden
Matrilineal primogeniture is where the eldest female child inherits the throne to the total exclusion of males. The order of succession to the position of the Rain Queen is an example in an African culture of matrilineal primogeniture: not only is dynastic descent reckoned through the female line, but only females are eligible to inherit.
  • Queen Victoria II (Jan-Aug 1901) – eldest daughter of Queen Victoria
  • Queen Charlotte (1901-1919) - eldest daughter
  • Queen Feodora (1919-1945) - only daughter
  • Queen Victoria III (1945-1950) - senior cousin
  • Queen Alice (1950-1969) - eldest daughter (mother of Prince Phillip)
  • Queen Margarita (1969-1981) - eldest daughter (sister of Prince Phillip)
  • HM Queen Beatrix (since 1981) - only surviving daughter
Male inheritance through females. This particular system of inheritance applied to the thrones of the Picts of Northern Britain and the Etruscans of Italy. Although the ruler was always male, inheritance was matrilineal so a king would typically be succeeded by his daughter's husband or his sister's son.
  • King Edward VII (1901-1910)
  • King Olav (1910-1991) - maternal grandson - Olav V of Norway
  • HM King Haakon (since 1991) – maternal grandson
Ultimogeniture is an order of succession where the subject is succeeded by the youngest son. This was practised within the Mongol Empire as a method of renewal.
  • King Edward VII (1901-1910)
  • King George V (1910-1936) – youngest surviving son
  • King George VI (1936-1942) – actually the former Duke of Kent
  • HM King Michael (since 1942) – actually Prince Michael of Kent
  • HRH Prince Frederick (Heir Apparent) – Lord Frederick Windsor
Lateral Succession mandates the principle of seniority among members of a dynasty or dynastic clan. The monarch is the most mature elder of the clan. This ensures that mature leaders are in charge, removing a need for regents. When no male heir is mature enough, a female heir is usually determined by proximity to the last monarch. This system was used amongst Scottish clans, and some Asian monarchies.
  • King Edward VII (1901-1910)
  • King Arthur (1910-1942)
  • King Charles Edward (1942-1954)
  • King Alexander (1954-1960)
  • King Edward VIII (1960-1972)
  • King Henry IX (1972-1974)
  • HM King Edward IX (since 1974) – the current Duke of Kent
  • HRH The Prince Michael (Heir Presumptive) – Prince Michael of Kent

nudge67 08-10-2008 03:31 AM

More Alternate Successions
 
Gavelkind was a method of succession in Ireland and Wales, by which the land was divided at the death of the holder amongst his sons. Illegitimate sons, but not daughters, were included in the division. The father normally prescribed the division before his death. Alternatively, the youngest son divided the land into equal parts. The eldest son chose first, followed by the second and so on until the youngest received the remaining land. This resulted in many petty kingdoms, and a similar system (only benefiting legitimate sons) reduced the Holy Roman Empire to over 300 princely states by the 19th century. If there were no male successors, the land was resumed to be re-divided amongst other surviving kin.
  • King Edward VII (1901-1910) – kingdom to only surviving son:
  • King George V (1910-1936) – kingdom quartered amongst sons:
    • Prince Edward gains England
    • Prince Albert gains Scotland – ( the late King George VI)
    • Prince Henry gains Ireland
    • Prince George gains Wales & the Isle of Man
  • King George VI of Wales (1936-1942) dies, Wales is divided between his two sons:
    • Prince Edward gains South Wales
    • Prince Michael gains North Wales & The Isle of Man
  • King Albert of Scotland (1936-1952) dies without a male heir, Scotland is divided amongst his brothers and nephews:
    • King Edward VIII of England gains the Scottish Lowlands
    • King Henry IX of Ireland gains the Scottish Highlands
    • King Edward of South Wales gains the Northern Isles
    • King Michael of North Wales gains the Western Isles
  • King Edward VIII of England (1936-1972) dies without an heir, England and the Scottish Lowlands are divided amongst his brother and nephews
    • King Henry IX of Ireland gains the Scottish Lowlands & Northern England
    • HM King Edward of South Wales gains Southern England
      • Prince George ( Senior Heir Apparent)
      • Prince Nicholas (Junior Heir Apparent)
    • HM King Michael of North Wales gains the English Midlands
      • HRH Prince Frederick (Heir Apparent)
  • King Henry IX of Ireland & Scotland (1936-1974) dies, realm inherited by
    • HM King Richard IV of Ireland & Scotland (since 1974)
      • HRH Prince Alexander (Heir Apparent)
      • HRH Prince Xan (2nd Heir Apparent)


Tanistry, or elective monarchy, is a system where a king was elected from candidates who were members of the kindred descended in the male line from a common ancestor, all of whom are considered to have equally legitimate claims on the Throne. Those eligible to vote are princes who have attained their majority. This system is in use in Cambodia, Kuwait, Malaysia and the United Arab Emirates, and was formerly used to choose the King of Scotland and the High King of Ireland. It was also in use in Anglo-Saxon England, Hawaii, Poland, and medieval Scandinavia. Typically, votes would be cast in family blocks.
  • King Edward VII (1901-1910) – successor from candidates:
    • Prince Arthur (brother) – probable victor
    • Prince George (son)
    • Prince Arthur (nephew)
    • Prince Charles Edward (nephew)
  • King Arthur (1910-1942) – successor from candidates:
    • Prince Arthur (son)
    • Prince Edward (grand-nephew) – probable victor
    • Prince Albert (grand-nephew)
    • Prince Henry (grand-nephew)
    • Prince George (grand-nephew)
    • Prince John Leopold (grand-nephew)
    • Prince Hubert (grand-nephew)
    • Prince Alastair (grandson)
    • Prince Frederick Josias (grand-nephew)
  • King Edward VIII (1942-1972) - successor from candidates:
    • Prince Henry of Gloucester (brother) – probable victor
    • Prince Ernest (second cousin)
    • HRH Prince Edward of Kent (nephew)
    • HH Prince Peter of Saxe-Coburg & Gotha
    • Prince William of Gloucester(nephew)
    • HRH Prince Michael of Kent (nephew)
    • Prince Federick Josias (second cousin)
    • HRH Prince Richard of Gloucester (nephew)
    • HRH Prince Charles of Wales (grandnephew)
  • King Henry IX (1972-1974) – successor from candidates:
    • Prince Ernest (second cousin)
    • HRH Prince Edward of Kent (nephew) – probable victor
    • HH Hereditary Prince Peter of Saxe-Coburg & Gotha (second cousin)
    • HH Prince Andreas of Saxe-Coburg & Gotha
    • HRH Prince Michael of Kent (nephew)
    • Prince Federick Josias (second cousin)
    • HRH Prince Richard of Gloucester (son)
    • HRH Prince Charles of Wales (grandnephew)
  • King Edward IX (since 1974) – currently eligible succession candidates:
    • HH Prince Peter of Saxe-Coburg & Gotha
    • HH Prince Andreas of Saxe-Coburg & Gotha
    • HRH Prince Michael of Kent
    • HRH Prince Richard of Gloucester
    • HRH Prince Charles of Wales
    • HRH Prince Andrew of York
    • George Windsor, Earl of St Andrews
    • HRH Prince Edward of Wessex
    • Lord Nicholas Windsor
    • Alexander Windsor, Earl of Ulster
    • HH Prince Hubertus of Saxe-Coburg & Gotha
    • Lord Frederick Windsor
    • HRH Prince William of Wales
    • HRH Prince Harry of Wales

nudge67 08-10-2008 03:52 AM

So, which method of succession do you prefer?

wbenson 08-10-2008 04:03 AM

I hope they would have picked a more conventional name than Xan if he was going to be a prince.

nudge67 08-10-2008 04:47 AM

according to wikipedia:

Xan Windsor, Lord Culloden (Xan Richard Anders Windsor; born 12 March 2007) is the only son and heir of Alexander Windsor, Earl of Ulster and his wife, Claire Windsor, Countess of Ulster (nιe Booth).
His father being the only son of Prince Richard, Duke of Gloucester and Birgitte, Duchess of Gloucester, Lord Culloden is second in line to the Dukedom of Gloucester, and 21st in line to the British Throne. He is currently the only grandchild of The Duke and Duchess of Gloucester.

LaPlusBelle 10-22-2008 09:39 PM

What If The Monarchy Was Under Salic Law?
 
I'm taking a course in British History right now, and Salic law is fascinating to me. Does anyone know who would be king if Salic law was as strongly used in England as it was in France or the Germanic states?

What if the crown stayed with the family of Stephen of Blois and didn't go to Henry II?

Elspeth 10-22-2008 10:24 PM

Well, Stephen was descended through William the Conqueror's daughter, so I'm not sure he was in a better position than Henry II.

Jo of Palatine 10-23-2008 06:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elspeth (Post 841769)
Well, Stephen was descended through William the Conqueror's daughter, so I'm not sure he was in a better position than Henry II.

Seems they had to "make do" right from the start, as William was illegitimate himself, so wouldn't have had a claim under Salic law either to Normandy...:flowers:

Zonk 01-06-2009 08:16 PM

If ------- A Chance to change British Royal History
 
I was reading the Six Wives of Henry VIII thread, when I had a strange thought/idea. History has shown us that Catherine of Aragon married Henry VIII of England because her previous husband, Prince Arthur had died several months into their marriage. Henry married Catherine, she had Mary and no sons, he met Anne, wanted a divorce, left the Roman Catholic church, etc. Well you know how it ends.

So here's my thought:

What IF Arthur hadn't died so young but instead remained married to Catherine of Aragon, had heirs (maybe a son or two)...what do you think what have been different?

I think several things that did happen might not have happened (or at least the way it happened). Henry would have not married Catherine, instead he might have married another foreign princess. Elizabeth I might have never been born. The colonies in America might have never been founded under Elizabeth's reign, the Act of Settlement, etc. The list could go on and on.

So what do you think. This is just for fun. So there is no right or wrong answer. Feel free to share your What IF as well.

Russophile 01-06-2009 09:14 PM

Who would Henry have married?? Oh! I haven't read on who was eligible?? Maybe Crazy Juana F & I's other daughter??

NotAPretender 01-06-2009 09:21 PM

IIRC, Henry was slated to enter the church, and would likely have risen to the highest ecclesiatical powers; most probably, he would have served on his brother's Privy Council, and perhaps been named Lord Protector in the event of his brother's death during the minority of Arthur's children.

He'd have made a horrible priest, though; he did seem to, ahem, like the ladies. He'd probably have fathered numerous illegitimate children which, if Arthur's children died or if Arthur left only daughters - or, if Henry were such a protector as was Richard III - could have resulted in a War of The Red and White Roses.

Russophile 01-06-2009 09:38 PM

I know he liked the ladies, but it was said he wasn't entirely slutty.
Oh! That means the Anglican Church wouldn't be!

Al_bina 01-06-2009 10:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NotAPretender (Post 876634)
IIRC, Henry was slated to enter the church, and would likely have risen to the highest ecclesiastical powers; most probably, he would have served on his brother's Privy Council, and perhaps been named Lord Protector in the event of his brother's death during the minority of Arthur's children. ... [snipped]

I could have never imagined Henry VIII becoming a priest of any kind. At the same time, I am sure he would have settled himself into the Vatican scene. It is possible that he would have been surrounded by controversies like Pope Alexander VI (also known as Rodrigo Borgia) and/or even outshone him in respect of women and food.

Iluvbertie 01-06-2009 11:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russophile (Post 876641)
I know he liked the ladies, but it was said he wasn't entirely slutty.
Oh! That means the Anglican Church wouldn't be!

Not in its present form but there was a growing call for the monarch in England to have a greater say in the Church in England so with the background of the Reformation who knows whether or not Arthur or his heir mightn't have seized the reins of the church anyway and we still have an Anglican Church just not necessarily as it is at present. We certainly wouldn't have had the Elizabethan Compromise, which is one of the greatest decisions ever made in respect of religious worship, I believe.

White Princess 01-06-2009 11:42 PM

The only think I would change is the fact Elizabeth I had no issue. I would liked her to have sons and daughter for her blood reign till nowadays.

madeleine victoria 01-07-2009 09:06 AM

If Arthur did not die and given that he remained married to Catherine of Aragon, I think England will be Catholic too. There will never be Elizabeth I. Although I think the vast colonies will remain until today since Arthur and Catherine love to strategize and think of ways to protect their kingdom and expand their territories, of course with the help of Ferdinand and Isabella of Spain.

On the other hand, if Richard won his battle against Henry VII, the line will continue under the Plantagenets/Lancaster Kings. The Tudors will have no chance to rule the kingdom unless they will force a battle again and either Arthur or Henry VIII wins the crown.

Was Anne Boleyn well-loved by her subjects? The people of England? I think not as the same affection held by Catherine of Aragon.

Jacknch 01-07-2009 10:57 AM

I'm not sure whether this relates to this topic, but I saw a documentary on BBC TV about who is the rightful British monarch and it turned out to be an Australian farmer called Michael!

Lady Ann 01-08-2009 03:39 PM

From my point of veiw i don't think Anne B was well liked by a good part of the English People ... they loved and were loyal to Cathrine of Aragon until they were swon to do other wise ..of course this is just my opinion ...from things I have read and seen on TV....

Vecchiolarry 01-08-2009 10:03 PM

Hi,

Catherine of Aragon was indeed greatly loved by the English. Over 27 years, as Queen, she went out dispensing foods, clothes and charity to the needy and was seen at worship; certainly very good public relations for anybody. She was perceived as humble.
When she died, the public mourned her, even though Henry discouraged it. I think even Henry mourned her or certainly was saddened since he had once loved her and she was always loyal to him, even when he repudiated her. And besides, she died in January 1536 and Henry was abandoning Anne Boleyn by then (she died in May 1536).....

Anne Boleyn was not a Queen who went out and distributed alms to the poor and in fact was even booed in public. She was perceived as haughty. And, she was only Queen for about 3 years.
When Anne died, the people turned up just to see her get her 'comeuppence' as it were. Although she died quite dignified and the people begrudgingly admired that 'she died well'....

Catherine of Aragon was one of the finest examples of a Queen England ever had....
Anne Boleyn was not...

Larry

Jeniann 01-13-2009 02:24 PM

To be fair (and I'm a Catherine fan rather than an Anne one) I think under different circumstances Anne Boleyn could've been a popular Queen. It was because people saw her as stealing the crown away from the popular and well-liked Catherine of Aragon they disliked her. Also she was seen as slutty and a home wrecker by a lot of the more traditional and religious types. If Henry had never married Catherine and fallen in love with Anne Boleyn as a single man I think she would've been a popular Queen. She did try to do some charity work and help the poor (though not quite to the extent of CoA, partly because Henry had gotten rid of the Catholic Church which was one of the organizations CoA did charity work through) and if people hadn't seen her as the "other woman" who got rid of Catherine they wouldn't have had a reason to hate her.

It's similar to the Diana/Camilla situation in some ways, not that I want to open that can or worms.


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