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-   -   Title for Camilla - Part 4 (http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f44/title-for-camilla-part-4-a-17970.html)

kimebear 07-27-2008 09:42 PM

Title for Camilla - Part 4
 
Welcome to part 4 of the ongoing discussion about the title Camilla will hold if and when Charles becomes King.

Part 3 can be found here: http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums...3-a-15660.html

Please keep on the topic of a title for Camilla only. Further posts on whether or not Diana was guilty of high treason have no bearing on Camilla's future title and will be immediately deleted.

Duke of Marmalade 11-10-2008 10:12 AM

posted by milla Ca in the birthday thread:

Public support falls for Queen Camilla - Telegraph

not sure what kind of survey this is but I believe the majority of people in the uk would prefer "princess consort" to "queen", i am one of them.

not because i don't like camilla but because i find this whole title thing discriminating and unequal. for me, the monarch and the monarch only should be "king" or "queen", in any monarchy. i prefer the "prince consort" or "princess consort" title for the spouse, no matter if male or female. i like the fact that males are usually called "prince consort" and not "king" - a strong association to a monarch what in fact male consorts are not. as a consequence, i don't like female consorts to be called "queen", imo this should be the privilege of a female monarch only, like elizabeth II, and not the privilege of a female consort.

the "queen" title gets more and more commonerized in monarchies, it's almost like any woman from the street can get it these days. there should be distiction between the monarch and the consort, equally for men and women. if the male consorts can't be "king" the female consorts shouldn't be able to become "queen".

Iluvbertie 11-10-2008 03:31 PM

I understand your argument but can't agree for the following reason:

A woman always takes the rank and titles of her husband. What you are suggesting is that a Queen Consort isn't able to share the rank and titles of her husband unlike everyother woman.

To make it equitable then we need to not only say this about Queens' Consort but about ALL women - no woman takes the title/s and rank of her husband so no more Princesses, Duchesses etc through marriage.

To limit is to the wife of one person is totally discriminatory and unfair.

MARG 11-10-2008 07:25 PM

I am in complete agreement with you on this one Iluvbertie. I never cease to be amazed at the continuing flow of "reasons" and "reasoning" that have only one agenda.

I respect the honest views of those who do not wish to see Camilla crowned as Charles Queen. I loath convoluted bafflegab used by those less open in their opinion in an attempt to obfuscate the point.

scooter 11-10-2008 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iluvbertie (Post 850825)
I understand your argument but can't agree for the following reason:

A woman always takes the rank and titles of her husband. What you are suggesting is that a Queen Consort isn't able to share the rank and titles of her husband unlike everyother woman.

To make it equitable then we need to not only say this about Queens' Consort but about ALL women - no woman takes the title/s and rank of her husband so no more Princesses, Duchesses etc through marriage.

To limit is to the wife of one person is totally discriminatory and unfair.

Really? Then how do you reconcile the BRF denying Wallis, Duchess of WIndsor, HRH?

banda_windsor 11-10-2008 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scooter (Post 851032)
Really? Then how do you reconcile the BRF denying Wallis, Duchess of WIndsor, HRH?


I think it's a very different case with the DOW. She is the reason of King Edward to abdicate. The Royal Family never accept her as a member of the Royal Family. But the DOC, she's well accepted. QEII even bestowed upon her the Royal Family Order.

I agree to those who said that if Camilla can't be queen, it's unfair. She's already agree to not use her right to become the Princess of Wales in honor of Princess Diana memory. But Princess Diana was never use a title as a Queen of England. So I guess, it doesn't matter if Camilla use the title of Queen if Charles ascended the throne.

Iluvbertie 11-10-2008 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scooter (Post 851032)
Really? Then how do you reconcile the BRF denying Wallis, Duchess of WIndsor, HRH?

I don't.

They were wrong, in my opinion.

Just because they were wrong is no reason to allow another discrimination to occur.

scooter 11-10-2008 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by banda_windsor (Post 851041)
I think it's a very different case with the DOW. She is the reason of King Edward to abdicate. The Royal Family never accept her as a member of the Royal Family. But the DOC, she's well accepted. QEII even bestowed upon her the Royal Family Order.

I agree to those who said that if Camilla can't be queen, it's unfair. She's already agree to not use her right to become the Princess of Wales in honor of Princess Diana memory. But Princess Diana was never use a title as a Queen of England. So I guess, it doesn't matter if Camilla use the title of Queen if Charles ascended the throne.


As for well accepted I refer you to http://www.telegraph.co.uk/newstopic...n-camilla.html

Dated today:' A daily telegraph/Yougov poll commissioned to mark the 60th birthday of the Prince this Friday showed that only 18% wanted the Duchess to become Queen. When the same question was asked on her 60th birthday in July 2007, the number was 28%. '

Scarily enough, George Bush has far better approval numbers.

Elspeth 11-10-2008 10:45 PM

banda_windsor was talking about being accepted by the royal family. Which Camilla obviously has been. I wouldn't get too excited about these polls. People were demanding that Charles be shunted aside in favour of William after a previous poll found that more people wanted William to follow the Queen - but this poll shows that more people want Charles to be King now. I assume that if the same question is asked again at the time of William's engagement or some other popular event, the numbers will change again. It's a good thing nobody took fright at the "William must be the next monarch" polls and persuaded Charles to step out of the succession. Obviously a poll at the time of Camilla's birthday is going to give higher positive ratings than one coming just after all the publicity about her not accompanying Charles to Indonesia.

grevinnan 11-10-2008 11:26 PM

I doubt Charles will settle for anything less than Camilla being Queen.

Elspeth 11-10-2008 11:31 PM

Well, if they're going to have her be anything but Queen, they need to get moving as far as whatever laws need to be changed. It's not going to look good if she has to be demoted after the accession.

scooter 11-11-2008 03:36 PM

I think QEII has a few more miles left in her. No need to hurry!

Menarue 11-11-2008 04:08 PM

There is only one title for Camilla when Prince Charles becomes King and that is Queen.

MARG 11-12-2008 12:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elspeth (Post 851069)
Well, if they're going to have her be anything but Queen, they need to get moving as far as whatever laws need to be changed. It's not going to look good if she has to be demoted after the accession.

I can see it now . . . . the nation and Commonwealth in mourning, the Queen is dead! Long live the King! Oh but hang about, we haven't quite decided what to call the Kings wife so lets assemble the Commons and the House of Lords and change the law, then, and only then, we can bury "The Queen", both past and present! :ohmy:

Menarue 11-12-2008 02:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MARG (Post 851687)
I can see it now . . . . the nation and Commonwealth in mourning, the Queen is dead! Long live the King! Oh but hang about, we haven't quite decided what to call the Kings wife so lets assemble the Commons and the House of Lords and change the law, then, and only then, we can bury "The Queen", both past and present! :ohmy:


Ooooh Marg. What a thought! :eek:

Jacknch 11-12-2008 03:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scooter (Post 851032)
Really? Then how do you reconcile the BRF denying Wallis, Duchess of WIndsor, HRH?

I think there is a distinction between the words "title" (the name of the person) and "rank" (how high up the heirarchy they are). Therefore, the Duke of Windsor's wife became the Duchess of Windsor automatically on their marriage as is customery for a woman to take her husband's title, but the HRH is the rank is I believe a personal gift of the monarch and is not automatically added on to the title as a right. I'm quite sure I've read somewhere that the Queen bestowed the title of HRH on someone or other. On a similar subject, HRH THE Princess of Wales became simply Diana, Princess of Wales (in other words "a" princess, of Wales) on her divorce because the title goes with the marriage. With regard to her rank, HRH, she would automatically have lost this on divorce because she was no longer a member of the royal family (like Alexandra of Denmark who was given the courtesy rank of Her Highness which we do not have in Britain). Had Diana kept the title she could not have been known as HRH Diana, Princess of Wales because the HRH bit has to be followed by a THE. So her title could have been HRH The Princess Diana (of Wales).
As for HRH The Duchess of Cornwall, I am not so sure whether an Act of parliament would be required to prevent her being called Queen. It is customery for a Kings wife to be called Queen but surely it follows that if it customery for the Prince of Wales' wife to be called the Princess of Wales but she decides to use a different title this custom can be transferred up a rank so that if Camilla wants to be known as Princess Consort and no one objects then there should be no problem. Don't forget that Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother was actually crowned queen when her husband King George had his coronation.

Charlotte1 11-12-2008 03:51 AM

Even if Diana had kept her HRH she never would have been HRH The Princess Diana of Wales. The "The" is used just by children of the monarch, Prince William is HRH Prince William of Wales ( see Court Circular) British princesses in their own right are born, they don't become princesses in their own right on marriage, so no 'Princess Diana' she wasn't the daughter or grand-daughter of a monarch in the male line. Upon her divorce she could have gone back to her actual title of Lady Diana.

Camilla becoming Queen, as the wife of The Prince of Wales she holds all his titles, and she's known by one of them Duchess of Cornwall. As wife of the King she holds no other titles except queen, she can't be known by a title she doesn't hold and that doesn't exist! Queen is top of the pile, title wise, once Charles becomes King she's automatically queen, if she's not queen then she has to be stripped of that title and a new one created, with legislation.

muriel 11-12-2008 05:14 AM

There is no doubt that when Charles succeeds to the throne, Camilla will legally be Queen. If Charles takes the view at the time (despite what was said at time of the engagement of C&C) that he would prefer that she be known as Princess Consort, he can issue letters patent to the effect. Legally, she would continue to be Queen but just be referred to as Princess Consort - just like the current arrangement where she is Princess of Wales, but prefers to use one of her lesser titles.

Some might argue of how she might use a lesser title that does not exist. As King, Charles will be font of all honour, and there will be nothing stopping him from creating the title of Princess Consort for her to use.

princessistanbul 11-12-2008 05:42 AM

I hope only Duchess... all time
She's not fit for "Queen" title

Skydragon 11-12-2008 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by princessistanbul (Post 851746)
She's not fit for "Queen" title

And you know this how? Have you perhaps met her and discussed the role with her, is there a book we can read to judge her by? :whistling:


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