The Royal Forums

The Royal Forums (http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/)
-   Royal Families of Germany and Austria (http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f78/)
-   -   German Royal and Noble Titles & Protocols (http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f78/german-royal-and-noble-titles-and-protocols-17095.html)

michelleq 06-12-2005 10:53 AM

German Royal and Noble Titles & Protocols
 
In Germany, what is the hierachy of Royal Titles:,
HRH
HSH
HH?
And if I forgot any, or put the ranking of the three out of order, please correct me.

Thanx

Sean.~ 06-12-2005 02:12 PM

Hi there,

These are actually styles of address & reference, & not titles. Anyway, this is a very basic summary. There were a lot of variations.

HIM for the German Emperor & HIH for his heir (all other Prussian Princes/ss were HRH.

HM for the Kings of Saxony, Wurrtemburg, Bavaria (and Hanover before 1866). HRH for other members.

HRH for the heads of the Grand Ducal Houses & their heirs, while HGDH was used for other members It should be noted that this could differ from state to state. In some (most, IIRC) states the HGDH style was not used HH was used for all cadet members, (sometimes this included the heir, as in Saxe-Weimar-Eisenach).

HH by members of the ducal houses -- e.g. Altenburg, Coburg-Gotha, Meiningen, etc. Again, there were variations. For e.g. in Meiningen HH was reserved for the Duke & his children, while other members were only HSH.

HH by members of the ducal houses -- e.g. Altenburg, Coburg-Gotha, Meiningen, etc. Again, there were variations. For e.g. in Meiningen HH was reserved for the Duke & his children, while other members were only HSH.

HSH for members of princely houses such as Waldeck, Schaumburg-Lippe, Reuss, etc., as well as for the mediatized princely houses such as Weid, Leiningen, Sayn-Wittgenstien, Solms-Hohensolms-Lich, Hohenlohe etc. In some of the other houses (e.g. Quadt, Castell-Rudenhausen,Waldburg etc.) only the head of the house and his spouse have the princely title and style of HSH, while other members are His/Her Illustrious Highnss & hold the title of Count/ess.

His/Her Illustrious Highness for members of mediatized countly families (e.g. Toerring Jettenbach)

Charles 06-12-2005 04:16 PM

The heir to Prussia was (and is) HI&RH. Also used at one point was HDSH (His/Her Ducal Serene Highness) for cadets of ducal houses. I've seen it used for Nassau.

Generally, for the sovereigns I'd rank them as follows:

HIM/HI&RM
HM
HRH
HH
HSH

For others, I'd say the descending order of grandeur is:

HIH/HI&RH
HRH
HGDH
HH
HDSH
HSH
HIll.H

Sean.~ 06-24-2005 05:04 AM

Quote:

The heir to Prussia was (and is) HI&RH.
Well, that can be debated because there is no more Prussia. It depends on whether one recognizes his claim. It is only a title of pretension. And yes, the heir was officially styled as such (well, the German equivelant).

Also used at one point was HDSH (His/Her Ducal Serene Highness) for cadets of ducal houses. I've seen it used for Nassau.

Styles often changed within the 'Empire'. One only has to too look at the old Gothas to see! A well known example, for instance, at the time of his marriage to QV, Albert was a Serene Highness. The style of cadet members was later upgradeds.

Quote:

Generally, for the sovereigns I'd rank them as follows:

HIM/HI&RM
HM
HRH
HH
HSH
Are you talking about grandeur of style here or actual rank? If the former, I agree. If the latter, it was decided in the 1800s that there was to be no difference in rank of between a King and an Emperor. And today all sovereigns are equal, no matter what their style or title. They are given precedence based on the leghth of time they've been sovereign. [/quote

michelleq 04-01-2006 11:27 PM

Here is an odd question. I know that Germany is a Republic, yet the princes use HRH, HH, HSH, etc. socially. Can HRH Prince Moritz or HRH Prince Ernst raise a HH or HSH to HRH's? Also, do the HRH's ever give their family orders to othe German Royalty/Princes?

Warren 04-02-2006 03:05 AM

Styles and Titles
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by michelleq
Here is an odd question. I know that Germany is a Republic, yet the princes use HRH, HH, HSH, etc. socially. Can HRH Prince Moritz or HRH Prince Ernst raise a HH or HSH to HRH's? Also, do the HRH's ever give their family orders to othe German Royalty/Princes?

The Heads of Houses can 'create' titles and styles, though this is rarely done. The most recent example is the Head of the Princely House of Hohenzollern who in 1999 created Radu Duda, the husband of HRH Princess Margarita of Romania, Prince of Hohenzollern-Veringen with the qualification of Serene Highness. This was family business, as the Romanians are descendants of the Princely Hohenzollerns, and has no particular legal validity or effect. Some recognise the style and title while some don't. But the people who matter (members of the Gotha, or Royal Caste), do.

I guess Prince Moritz of Hesse could isssue a notice saying that he was raising in rank an HSH to an HRH, but I don't know if such a "promotion" would be recognised even with the Royal caste, and there would be little reason for Moritz to do such a thing.

Another example, leading to an interesting scenario, would be if Prince Ernst August legally adopted, say, Andrea Casiraghi. Andrea would then have the legal name of Andrea Prinz von Hannover. EA could, as Head of the Royal House of Hanover, 'decree' his new son an HRH. Prince Albert could (maybe) ratify this through his status as a Sovereign Prince so that the HRH for Andrea was legally recognised in Monaco (even if it was not recognised anywhere else). Later, Andrea changes his surname to Grimaldi, is created a Prince of Monaco by the reigning Prince while retaining his Royal style. Eventually he succeeds to the throne of Monaco... as HRH Andrea I, Prince of Monaco. A new Royal dynasty (as opposed to the merely Princely) would thus be born, with Andrea's descendants being HRH and not HSH.

If Princess Caroline had married EA (or any other Royal Prince) the first time round, and Albert had no living issue, Monaco would find itself in the happy circumstance similar to the Luxembourgers, who assumed the HRH over the Grand Ducal Highness style via a marriage. In any case, if Caroline does succeed Albert she will be an HRH Sovereign Princess, but the style she would give to her children in such a scenario is of course unknown.

HH the Emir of Bahrain became HM the King of Bahrain when Bahrain raised itself from an Emirate to a Kingdom in 2002, so there are different ways of raising one's family's status.

As to the second part of the question, familes or Princes with close relationships would likely award each other their House or Family orders.

lord_rankin 10-17-2006 11:24 AM

Aristocracy
 
Does anyone know if the title of Duke (or Herzog in German) was a title
used in Imperial Germany and if so was it restricted to the Royal family?

PrincessKoreen 10-17-2006 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord_rankin
Does anyone know if the title of Duke (or Herzog in German) was a title
used in Imperial Germany and if so was it restricted to the Royal family?

I don't believe it was restricted, since there were dukes long before Germany was an empire: witness the medieval Duke Henry the Lion of Saxony.

Hannah Gregory 05-20-2008 05:33 PM

German Royal and Noble Titles & Protocols
 
As Germany no longer (officially) have a raigning royal family, how are they organised or recognised? As there is no authoirty to say, who is a prince, princess, etc. How do they proove they're actually royal?

Do the German government recognise them in any capacity, either formally or informally? Are they given any priviligaes? Police escorts, Diplomatic immunity, diplomatic passports, etc?

Do any forigen govenments recognise them either formally or informally?

Jason R Maier esq 05-20-2008 06:32 PM

As best I know, in Germany . . . royal/noble titles are now part of the person's surname. And I think they're recognized informally by the state, but formal to a degree by other royal families.

PrinceOfCanada 05-21-2008 12:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason R Maier esq (Post 768805)
As best I know, in Germany . . . royal/noble titles are now part of the person's surname. And I think they're recognized informally by the state, but formal to a degree by other royal families.

Yes, that is the case; the title became part of the name some time ago. But to the best of my understanding, royal families throughout Europe ignore transitory laws of that nature.

branchg 05-27-2008 06:58 PM

The Government recognizes their titles only as a surname (i.e. Georg-Friedrich, Prinz von Preussen) which is permitted to be used on all legal documents such as passports, etc. They do not receive any diplomatic or protocol privileges, except in certain cases, at the invitation of The President of the Republic or a particular German state, they are granted some courtesies when The Queen or another head of state is visiting.

They have been periodic legal actions in the German courts with regard to the House Laws of various royal and ducal houses, which generally have been decided on by the courts based on historical documents and the will of the Head of the House.

sinulord 10-15-2008 07:44 PM

could anyone please explain the difference between prince/princess "zu" and prince/princess "von" (and the territorial designation)?

Warren 10-16-2008 07:17 AM

Basically, von = 'of' and zu = 'to'.
The definition from this site: The Germanic Titles and Appellations is as good as any...

VON
The most basic Title-particle of German(ic) nobility, translates into English as "of"
and can be equated to the French / Spanish / Latin "de, dela, du", Italian "di" and
the Polish suffix "ski or cki", and like those, not strictly an indicator of nobility.

Von may also appear as part of a non-noble family name.

To differentiate the two forms, it has been German-language
practice among the nobility to abbreviate the noble "von" as "v".

ZU
Literally meaning "to", the original use of "zu" rather than "von" in the
Titles of high nobility (Princely and Comital houses) indicated that the
ancestral property which served as the basis for the name was still in the
possession of the House (Fürst zu Stolberg, Fürst zu Leiningen etc).

Often it forms an accessory style (Graf von Harrach zu Rohrau und Thannhausen).

"zu" is also used with "von" to indicate the duality of origin and possession/rule
(eg Fürst von und zu Liechtenstein, meaning 'of and to' but more easily understood as 'of and at').

The comman belief that "zu" was a higher or more valued Title-particle than "von" has no basis.

See also these Wikipedia entries:
Royal and Noble Ranks
German Nobility
.

Jo of Palatine 10-17-2008 01:49 PM

As an addition: in former Prussia and the Northern parts of Germany there were great estates that were entailed called Majorat. The "zu" indicated that the holder of this title belonged to the main branch, the one which held the estate. So the above mentioned Graf von Harrach's branch of the family held the estates of Rohrau and Thannhausen while the main branch would have been the Grafen von und zu Harrach because they held the Harrach-estate. In earlier times the "zu" was reserved for the eldest son and the daughters, later it was used to indictate a branch with its own possessions.

Al_bina 10-17-2008 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warren (Post 838302)
...[snipped] The comman belief that "zu" was a higher or more valued Title-particle than "von" has no basis.

Our teacher of the German language was absolutely sure that "zu" for Princes and "von" for the rest ... as she used to explain to us.

Jo of Palatine 10-18-2008 05:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Al_bina (Post 838929)
Our teacher of the German language was absolutely sure that "zu" for Princes and "von" for the rest ... as she used to explain to us.

Then she was wrong. It is true that after 1806's Reichsdeputationshauptschluß, when most of the small, formerly independant prince- and dukedoms lost their territorial souverainity, the "zu" was used to mark this former souverainity (while the still reigning Houses only use the "von"). Eg the Fuerst zu Schaumburg-Lippe, meaning the Head of this family once ruled as a souverain over the princedom of Schaumburg-Lippe. So it is often used by mediatised families, especially those who could keep their palaces/estates within their former territory. But this is just one case of the usage and not all mediatised families used this form of title.

Warren 10-18-2008 05:48 AM

Schaumburg-Lippe is probably not the best example of this as the family continued to reign over the Principality until November 1918.

Jo of Palatine 10-18-2008 05:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warren (Post 839170)
Schaumburg-Lippe is probably not the best example of this as the family continued to reign over the Principality until November 1918.

Okay, let's take the Hohenlohe and their different branches and try to figure out why they changed from "von Hohenlohe" to "zu Hohenlohe". And no, the reason is not (at least not in all cases) that they were elevated to Reichsfuersten... it is really confusing, so I doubt there is a real rule on that except speaking about territorial possessions.

Al_bina 10-20-2008 10:43 PM

I beg your pardon ... what does " Reichsfuersten" mean? As far as I can translate, it is "Imperial" + "Prince"


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:50 PM.

Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2014
Jelsoft Enterprises