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Marengo 03-19-2008 11:11 AM

Claims to the Portuguese Throne
 
I always thought that the Duke of Branganca was commonly accepted as head of the Royal Family and the claimant to the Portuguese throne, but lately I have read (here and elsewhere) that thoeretically the Duke of Loule actually has a claim too, as has Mr. van Uden.

However I do not understand why these claims come from. AFAIK the marriages of the Miguelist line have always been dynastic and nobody ever renounced the rights to the throne. Moreover, did the Portuguese monarchy use the Salic laws?

Lecen 03-19-2008 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marengo (Post 743843)
I always thought that the Duke of Branganca was commonly accepted as head of the Royal Family and the claimant to the Portuguese throne, but lately I have read (here and elsewhere) that thoeretically the Duke of Loule actually has a claim too, as has Mr. van Uden.

However I do not understand why these claims come from. AFAIK the marriages of the Miguelist line have always been dynastic and nobody ever renounced the rights to the throne. Moreover, did the Portuguese monarchy use the Salic laws?

The duke of Loulé is a descendend from a Braganza princess daughter of king Joh VI, so, a sister of Pedro I of Brazil and Miguel I of Portugal.

I don´t know who is this "Mr. van Uden".

Don Duarte is a male Braganza and is a descendent in male line of the kings of Portugal.

The problem is that a very few monarchists care about an article in the constitution of 1834 that says that Miguel and all his descendents are out of the line of succession. It was a revenge from the liberal against the deposed king and his conservative allies.

So, most monarchists don´t care about such article, even more because that constitution does not exist anymore.

Elsa M. 03-21-2008 07:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lecen (Post 743958)
I don´t know who is this "Mr. van Uden".

D. Francisco van Uden is the son of Infanta D. Maria Adelaide (who is a sister of D. Duarte Nuno). Both D. Duarte and D. Francisco are great grandchildren of King D. Miguel, and therefore were excluded from the Throne and condemned to exhile, according to the Convenção de Évora Monte.

The dispute dates back to 1826, when King D. João VI died and two opposite fractions, led by the two Infantes, divided the country: the Liberal Fraction (led by D. Pedro) and the Absolutist Fraction (led by D. Miguel).

After D. Miguel's defeat and surrender, in May 1834, the Courts were assembled and a Constitution was drafted, declaring D. Miguel and his descendents ineligible to succeed to the Crown and thus forbid, under death penalty, to return to Portugal.

This is the reason why some monarchists do not recognize D. Duarte Pio - and D. Francisco van Uden, for that matter - as claimants to the Throne, since they are D. Miguel's decendents.

The current Duke of Loulé is D. Pedro Folque de Mendoça, who descends from Infanta Ana de Jesus de Bragança (daughter of King D. João VI and therefore a sister of Kings D. Pedro IV and D. Miguel).

Quote:

The problem is that a very few monarchists care about an article in the constitution of 1834 that says that Miguel and all his descendents are out of the line of succession. It was a revenge from the liberal against the deposed king and his conservative allies.
Problem is that King D. Manuel II - who was the last chain of the senior Bragança line (descending from King D. Pedro IV) - is said to have signed the Pact of Dover, which states that, since he had no children, the Duchy of Bragança would pass to his cousin, D. Duarte Nuno, and his family... I didn't see the document, but some people say there are no signatures in that paper.

Lecen 03-21-2008 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elsa M. (Post 744463)
Problem is that King D. Manuel II - who was the last chain of the senior Bragança line (descending from King D. Pedro IV) - is said to have signed the Pact of Dover, which states that, since he had no children, the Duchy of Bragança would pass to his cousin, D. Duarte Nuno, and his family... I didn't see the document, but some people say there are no signatures in that paper.

The line after Pedro IV is Saxe-Coburg-Gotha from the dynast of Wettin, not a Braganza, or Aviz or Burgundy from the Capetian Dynasty.

Although through a very arbitrary action, Miguel was excluded from the line of succession, but Pedro IV who rebelled against his own country in a war that killed thousands of portuguese soldiers (brazilian independency) was kept as John VI heir.

Weird, huh?

Elsa M. 03-21-2008 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lecen (Post 744500)
The line after Pedro IV is Saxe-Coburg-Gotha from the dynast of Wettin, not a Braganza, or Aviz or Burgundy from the Capetian Dynasty.

Through Infanta D. Maria Ana de Bragança (daughter of Queen D. Maria II and D. Fernando Saxe-Coburg-Gotha).

Regina 03-22-2008 02:49 PM

Quote:

Problem is that King D. Manuel II - who was the last chain of the senior Bragança line (descending from King D. Pedro IV) - is said to have signed the Pact of Dover, which states that, since he had no children, the Duchy of Bragança would pass to his cousin, D. Duarte Nuno, and his family... I didn't see the document, but some people say there are no signatures in that paper.
This Pacto is not valid for the simple reason that it didn't exist. This is the only document related to the Pact of Dover that we can find.
It has no signatures at all. I've never heard about a valid document without signatures of both parts.
Besides, why should be D. Manuel worried with the Royal Sucession if he was only 23 at the time?!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lecen (Post 743958)
I don´t know who is this "Mr. van Uden".

D. Duarte de Bragança and D. Francisco Van Uden are Cousins.
Like Elsa said, Dom Francisco Van Uden is the son of Dona Maria Adelaide de Bragança, Infanta of Portugal. Dª Adelaide is D. Duarte's aunt, since she was sister of D. Duarte's father (D. Duarte Nuno).

Dona Adelaide and Dom Duarte Nuno were the younger children of D. Miguel de Bragança. Dom Miguel has always lived on exile. The Miguelistas were banned from Portugal around 1830.
D. Duarte Nuno could never been chosen as a royal pretender because he was an Austrian, not a Portuguese. His sisters (including Dona Maria Adelaide) were not Portuguese either.

D. Duarte Pio (his son) was born in Switzerland as an Austrian, just like his father.
Dª Adelaide is a mother of 4 children: Francisco Van Uden is the third one. Together with his younger and only sister, they are the only children of her who were born in Portugal. The Royal Constitutional Letter of 1842, article 8, says that a future king cannot be naturalized in foreign soil, as it happened with D. Duarte Nuno and his son.

Therefore, D. Francisco Van Uden is the right Pretender to the Throne of Portugal.
D. Duarte Nuno claimed that he and his son, D. Duarte Pio, were born as Portuguese. But I (and many others!) don't believe that is true. What most probably happened was a falsification (in 1961) of the birth certificates of him and his son. I say this because it is impossible that D. Duarte Pio had been born (1945) in the Portuguese Embassy of Bern, when the Law of Banishment was only revogated in 1950. In 1945, Duarte Nuno was not a Portuguese (he was banned!), so his son could never be allowed to be born in Portuguese Territory. Even if that happened, it would be an illegal decision, contrary to the monarchist Law of Nationality of 1826.

Keith 05-05-2008 08:33 AM

Questions from a Newcomer
 
Being a newcomer to the issues of the Portuguese monarchy, I have a couple of questions of curiosity, to which I am hoping someone could provide some insights.

I understand that royalty/monarchs need to remain impartial when it comes to political parties, so I understand why the Partido Popular Monarquico does not show support for Dom Duarte Pio and he does not support them. But I was wondering if there are any non-political organizations that support him and advocate for the return of the monarchy?

Also, to what extent is there popular support for the return of the monarchy, at least in the form of a limited, constitutional monarchy such as what Spain has? A constitutional monarchy would allow a place for the monarch and maintain the democratic process.

Keith 05-05-2008 10:34 AM

Claims to the Portuguese Throne
 
I just want to make sure I understand the situation that is being discussed in this thread because I'm confused. As I understand the discussion, since King D. Miguel was exiled and his descendents banned from ever attaining the throne, and since Manuel II was the last in the line from King D. Pedro IV, and since there is no proof that he transferred the Duchy of Bragança to D. Duarte Nuno, and since Dona Maria Adelaide was also not considered Portuguese, I do not understand how D. Francisco Van Uden woud be the rightful pretender to the throne even if he was born in Portugal. Does the revocation of 1950 clear the way for this to occur?

If not, would the only considered legitmate line be through Infanta Ana de Jesus de Bragança? And since D. Pedro Folque de Mendoça is descended from Infanta Ana de Jesus de Bragança, would then D. Pedro Folque de Mendoça be the rightful heir to the throne? I'm not presenting an argument. I'm just trying to understand.

Then, that raises another question for me. Has D. Francisco Van Uden or D. Pedro Folque de Mendoça shown any interest in accepting the throne should that situation ever occur?

Also, where would I find a copy of the Law of Nationality of 1826, the Constitution of 1834, the Royal Constitutional Letter of 1842, and the revocation of the Law of Banishment in 1950?

Regina 05-07-2008 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keith (Post 762097)
I just want to make sure I understand the situation that is being discussed in this thread because I'm confused. As I understand the discussion, since King D. Miguel was exiled and his descendents banned from ever attaining the throne, and since Manuel II was the last in the line from King D. Pedro IV, and since there is no proof that he transferred the Duchy of Bragança to D. Duarte Nuno, and since Dona Maria Adelaide was also not considered Portuguese, I do not understand how D. Francisco Van Uden woud be the rightful pretender to the throne even if he was born in Portugal. Does the revocation of 1950 clear the way for this to occur?

The revocation of 27th May 1950, was accepted by all the monarchists. With this revocation, (some of) the descendents of D. Miguel became pretendents to the Throne again.

Quote:

Then, that raises another question for me. Has D. Francisco Van Uden or D. Pedro Folque de Mendoça shown any interest in accepting the throne should that situation ever occur?
If D. Duarte didn't get married, D. Francisco would have been ready to assume his (legitimated) rights. In this interview D. Francisco says that several years ago he was worried with the education of his eldest son. Duarte was still single and there were no perspectives of marriage to him or his brothers. So he wanted to raise his son the best he could for the case that one day the child was called to assume the great responsibility to become the Heir of the Throne.

Keith 05-08-2008 08:29 AM

Claims to the Portuguese Throne
 
Regina, thank you for your reply to my questions. That was helpful. I have also been finally getting around to reading some of the other entries on this forum, which have also helped to clarify matters. I probably should have done that first. But I am still wondering: to what extent is there popular support for restoring the monarchy? Would the people of Portugal be interested in establishing a constitutional monarchy?

Elsa M. 05-08-2008 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keith (Post 763302)
But I am still wondering: to what extent is there popular support for restoring the monarchy? Would the people of Portugal be interested in establishing a constitutional monarchy?

No, there's no way it may happen... not in this lifetime.
The Portuguese people have great sympathy for the royal couple - and the proof of it was in their wedding full of grandeur - but the Republic has come to stay... no matter how much the few monarchists struggle to claim the contrary.

Menarue 05-08-2008 10:49 AM

All the Portuguese people I know say the same thing Elsa. The Republic is here to stay but when Dom Duarte married D. Isabel someone asked the then President of the Republic how he could attend the wedding and what did he think about the monarchists shouting God Save the King. He answered, in what I thought was a very touching way "D. Duarte is one of us",this is not a very good translation of what he said but the essence is there. This was not long after the wedding of Infanta Elena in Spain and I thought that "our" royal wedding was just as good as any and a lot better than some others.
The bride broke with tradition and took off her veil before entering the church so as to let the people waiting see her properly. A lovely couple and from what I can see they have the admiration of even the most staunch Republicans.
BTW The cake sent from the Algarve was splendid too.
Menarue

Keith 05-08-2008 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elsa M. (Post 763340)
No, there's no way it may happen... not in this lifetime.
The Portuguese people have great sympathy for the royal couple - and the proof of it was in their wedding full of grandeur - but the Republic has come to stay... no matter how much the few monarchists struggle to claim the contrary.

I don't mean to belabor the question, but not even for a parlamentarian form of government which would have a place for the monarch such as in the case of Spain or England? It would still allow the democratic process to work. Anyway, I think its too bad that the Portuguese people are not open to that possibility. Coming from a long-established republic (albeit one that has deviated a great deal from the original intentions of its founders), and facing the partisan bickering that constantly goes on, I see the advantages of having a constitutional monarchy in which the head of state is separated from the head government. It places limitations and checks on the power, and the abuses of power, by the executive branch; provides the people with an institution that is above partisanship; provides an institution that unites the people when the factions of the republic start tearing it apart in their myopic pursuit of their ideologies; and provides a means for the country to look to its long-term interests since the monarch has to think long-term in order to perserve the monarchy and its trust. But then I think I'm "preaching to the choir". People on this forum are probably well aware of these points.

Anyway, thank you Elsa and Menaru for your responses. It is good to hear that the people are fond of the royal couple. Perhaps, at least in heart and soul, the Portuguese people will retain the monarchy.

Elsa M. 05-08-2008 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keith (Post 763395)
I see the advantages of having a constitutional monarchy in which the head of state is separated from the head government. It places limitations and checks on the power, and the abuses of power, by the executive branch

Well, to be honest here, our experience of a constitutional monarchy did not work well... and the main reason that ultimately led to the 1908 regicide was that the country was drawn in political instability and the king was controlled by his authoritarian Prime Minister, João Franco...

So, in the collective imagery, we associate the word "monarchy" to anything less a stable democratic regime, I guess... in a way, the figure of the President in Portugal works much as that iconic representative or impartial "arbiter" one would expect from a monarch, since our President actually has the same effective power as the King of Spain, for example.

And then, of course, the Republic has that extraordinary advantage of allowing everybody to achieve the Heads of the State. President Cavaco Silva, for example, is a self-made man, who was born as the son of a gas station employee and was able to buil a meritoric academic and political carrear, up to the Presidency. That's inspiring, no matter what...

Regina 05-08-2008 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keith (Post 763302)
Regina, thank you for your reply to my questions. That was helpful. I have also been finally getting around to reading some of the other entries on this forum, which have also helped to clarify matters.

:flowers: Thanks for your interest.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Menarue (Post 763348)
All the Portuguese people I know say the same thing Elsa. The Republic is here to stay but when Dom Duarte married D. Isabel someone asked the then President of the Republic how he could attend the wedding and what did he think about the monarchists shouting God Save the King. He answered, in what I thought was a very touching way "D. Duarte is one of us",this is not a very good translation of what he said but the essence is there. This was not long after the wedding of Infanta Elena in Spain and I thought that "our" royal wedding was just as good as any and a lot better than some others.
The bride broke with tradition and took off her veil before entering the church so as to let the people waiting see her properly. A lovely couple and from what I can see they have the admiration of even the most staunch Republicans.
BTW The cake sent from the Algarve was splendid too.
Menarue

Yes, the Portuguese people don't really care for a Monarchy, at least not right now. Although we looove Royals from other countries and watch Royal Weddings, most people don't want to have a King or a Queen as their Regents.
If you asked them, most people tell me "Pay all their travels, private schools for their children, weddings, parties, cars?! No way!"
Even if a Republic becomes more expensive than a Monarchy, the Portuguese are "allergic" to the idea having a family enjoying a good castle and good food all their life while they are struggling to work and pay their debts... Basically, this is the dominant idea. Others are devout Republicans, so obviously the only system they support is a Republic.
Then, some few others (like me :biggrin: ) simply cannot bear the idea of having D. Duarte as their King. I like him as a person since he is a kind and humble man, it's touching to hear him talk about his 3 children, the couple is very lovey, but IMO he lacks many qualities that a King should have.

I agree their wedding was quite amazing! Just beautiful. IMO, it was much classy and regal than many of the royal wedding I have watched recently.

P.S. I was watching the wedding at home and it was so amusing when the tv commentator said "it seems that... Santana Lopes forgot to bring his invitation with him... He must return home!" :biggrin:

Elsa M. 05-09-2008 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regina (Post 763537)
P.S. I was watching the wedding at home and it was so amusing when the tv commentator said "it seems that... Santana Lopes forgot to bring his invitation with him... He must return home!" :biggrin:

Ah, too funny, Regina! Eladio Climaco is priceless... poor man! :lol:
I still fall off my chair, everytime I play the video... it's amazing how he was able fail the name of every single person he was trying to identify :biggrin:

Menarue 05-09-2008 04:37 PM

Not as funny as when after Infanta Elena´s wedding the commentator said "they are on the steps of the church where they have just consummated their marriage " it made me laugh so much that I have forgotten the exact words....or exactly who said them but it was a woman.

Menarue

Regina 05-09-2008 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elsa M. (Post 763894)
Ah, too funny, Regina! Eladio Climaco is priceless... poor man! :lol:
I still fall off my chair, everytime I play the video... it's amazing how he was able fail the name of every single person he was trying to identify :biggrin:

:lol:
Eladio Climaco! Well, RTP forgot that a royal wedding is not exactly the same as Jogos sem Fronteiras! :biggrin:


Quote:

Originally Posted by Menarue (Post 763899)
Not as funny as when after Infanta Elena´s wedding the commentator said "they are on the steps of the church where they have just consummated their marriage " it made me laugh so much that I have forgotten the exact words....or exactly who said them but it was a woman.

:lol: :lol: :lol: You're both so funny!

I just hate when during the ceremony some tv commentators say obvious things like "now the couple is praying", "Dª Isabel is smiling", or "D. Duarte is looking at Dª Isabel"...

---

I just want to add that in spite of most people in Portugal disagree with a Monarchy, they condemn the way some republicans killed the King. This act is seen as an unfair terrorist act.

Elsa M. 06-07-2008 10:31 AM

Sol


The registry services are investigating the birth certificate of D. Duarte Pio de Bragança, after a process to challenge his nationality was activated by a collaborator of Rosario Poidimani - the Italian man who claims to be the heir of the House of Bragança, who was arrested and is now being charged in Italy for several crimes of fraud, criminal association and counterfeiting documents.

The process, on behalf of Poidimani, alleges falsification of documents by D. Duarte's father, about his child's birth (on July 29th, 1947).
A spokesman of D. Duarte explained to Sol that D. Duarte Pio has already submitted all the documentation required by the official services.

Regina 06-07-2008 06:58 PM

D. Duarte is a Portuguese now, but he was not born as a Portuguese. How can he claim that if his parents were not Portuguese (her mother was a Brazilian and his father an Austrian)? When he was born his family was not authorized to live in Portugal (or Portuguese soil)!

Besides all that, I've never heard about any Embassy or Consulate with labours room...


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