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Josefine 01-01-2004 02:44 PM

Russian Imperial and Other Titles
 
I have a question
Can someone tell me more about the different titles Russian royals had with beginning with the last tsar family?

OniMichi 01-01-2004 06:51 PM

All I know is that ...
the Tsar was equal to a King
the Tsarina was equal to a Queen
the Tsarviech (or something similarily spelt) was the heir to the thrown and always had to be a prince so it would be equal to the Crown Prince
the Grand Duke would be any other Princes besides the Crown Prince
the Grand Duchess would be a princess.

Fireweaver 01-01-2004 07:29 PM

except the children of morganic marriages may have been created prince/princess, thus confusing everything :)

Sean.~ 01-01-2004 08:27 PM

deleted.

Sean.~ 01-01-2004 08:32 PM

deleted.

Fireweaver 01-04-2004 06:07 PM

And I thought the British system was confusing... oy!

laskaris 01-08-2004 09:28 AM

I think that the Russian system is even more complicated!Lower ranks than Knyaz,there was Graff(Grafsha for women)Vogyar ,Barin e.t.c with high grade of distinction between them..reffering to property priveledges even to the number of horses and the type of carriage they used!!!

Poppy 01-08-2004 10:28 AM

Also, Grand Dukes and Grand Duchesses were there inorder to distinguish from the mere Princes and Princesses. The Grand Dukes and Grand Duchesses were styled as "Imperial Highnesses" instead of "Royal Highnesses". Imperial Highness is higher than Royal Highness.

laskaris 01-11-2004 02:19 PM

In ranks lower than pricess,things were more confused.There was no saficient border among titles of nobility especially in lands beyond Urals ,so,this cituation,was held for years before the last czar.As a result of the whole hubub was some of them to join "democratic" movements(enthousiasts and before them, Lef Tolstoi, among others).That was one of the problems that Czar Nickolas inhereted.Then it was the costruction of the transebirian railway,that actually worked for the communists!The communication between the huge empire was a matter of days,and the transport of the revoloution commisars easier!!So, everything ended with the uprise of the communists and the REF's death!!!!

Duke 01-19-2004 03:24 AM

Out of curiosity and sorry for my igonrance!! I am just wondering how is the search for the Grand Duchness Anastasia Going on!! Is it a real story or what? I mean there are movies about it and i heard some parts are real!!! So can anyone enlight me!! :) thanks!!

tiaraprin 06-07-2004 01:31 AM

DNA tests were performed on Anna Anderson's body and she was found not to be Grand Duchess Anastasia. It is now truly believed she perished with the rest of the Imperial Family

Charles 06-18-2004 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by OniMichi@Jan 1st, 2004 - 6:51 pm
All I know is that ...
the Tsar was equal to a King
the Tsarina was equal to a Queen
the Tsarviech (or something similarily spelt) was the heir to the thrown and always had to be a prince so it would be equal to the Crown Prince
the Grand Duke would be any other Princes besides the Crown Prince
the Grand Duchess would be a princess.

The Russians assured the courts of Europe that the Tsar was an Emperor... However, I've seen the dual title of "Tsar and Emperor" used.

I'd go:
Tsar - Emperor
Tsarina/Tsaritsa - Empress
Tsarevitch - "Crown Prince"
Tsarevna - "Crown Princess"

The Grand Dukes and Grand Duchesses were Großfürst and Großfürstin in German, to distinguish them from the sovereign Großherzog and Großherzogin.

The Russian form of the titles when directly translated to English are Great/Grand Prince and Great/Grand Princess. Grand Prince and Grand Princess would make more sense for the agnates of the Russian Sovereign, but I will admit, Grand Duke and Grand Duchess sound nicer.

Of course, all the Grand Dukes and Grand Duchesses were Imperial Highnesses, but not Royal Highnesses as they did not get their titles from a King.

laskaris 06-23-2004 07:50 AM

Боже, Царя храни!
Сильный, державный
Царствуй во славу, во славу нам,
Царствуй на страх врагам,
Царь православный,
Боже, Царя, Царя храни!

Боже, Царя храни!
Славному долги дни
Дай на земли, дай на земли.
Гордых смирителю,
Слабых хранителю,
Всех утешителю
Все ниспошли.

Праводержавную
Русь Православную
Боже, Царя, Царя храни!
Царство ей стройное,
В силе спокойное,
Все недостойное
Прочь отжени!

О, Провидение,
Благословение
Нам ниспошли, ниспошли нам!
К благу стремление,
Счастье, смирение,
В скорби терпение
Дай на земли!

Charles 06-23-2004 12:14 PM

Could you translate that, please?

Infanta Paulette 06-27-2004 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Charles@Jun 18th, 2004 - 8:25 pm
The Russians assured the courts of Europe that the Tsar was an Emperor... However, I've seen the dual title of "Tsar and Emperor" used.

I'd go:
Tsar - Emperor
Tsarina/Tsaritsa - Empress
Tsarevitch - "Crown Prince"
Tsarevna - "Crown Princess"

I was about to say that I thought Czar/Tsar = Emporer and not King. Thanks for clearing that up.

branchg 06-26-2005 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OniMichi
All I know is that ...
the Tsar was equal to a King
the Tsarina was equal to a Queen
the Tsarviech (or something similarily spelt) was the heir to the thrown and always had to be a prince so it would be equal to the Crown Prince
the Grand Duke would be any other Princes besides the Crown Prince
the Grand Duchess would be a princess.

Not correct. Tsar of all Russias was the Sovereign's title and was equivalent to Emperor. The Russian imperial structure was a strange combination of a European court and a feudal system built through war and conquest. As a result, titles and styles were somewhat different from European standards.

The Imperial Family was the Tsar/Emperor, Tsarina/Empress, their children (Grand Duke/Duchess, Imperial Highness), their grandchildren (eldest male was a Grand Duke, Imperial Highness, rest were Prince/Princess of Russia with the style of Royal Highness), and great-grandchildren (Prince/Princess of Russia with the style of Highness). These categories were all dynasts under the Pauline laws and eligible for succession to the throne, provided other conditions were met. The Emperor was the sole arbitrator of titles, styles, honors and priviliges and ruled absolutely.

The rest of the family continued to hold the rank, style and title appropriate to their standing at the time of their birth. Morganatic marriages were approved at the Emperor's discretion and the title granted differed depending on the background of the spouse in question. Mistresses who were ballerinas or courtiers were usually created a Countess with a surname connected with a place or family. Spouses from respectable, but non-royal families, were usually granted the title Princess Romanovsky-Maiden Name with the style of Serene Highness. Morganatic descendants were considered part of the Romanov Family, but not the Imperial House.

Russia did not have a formal peerage, but rather an aristocracy made up of various merchants, bankers, courtiers and industrialists granted titles at the discretion of the Tsar. Usually, they were Prince/Princess (Surname) and inscribed in the Books of Nobility, but without a royal or imperial prefix. Former royal families such as the Bagrations of Georgia (annexed by the Russian Empire) were allowed to remain Royal Highness with the title of Prince, but only as members of the nobility.

Alice Vilghelmina 06-27-2005 06:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by laskaris
I think that the Russian system is even more complicated!Lower ranks than Knyaz,there was Graff(Grafsha for women)Vogyar ,Barin e.t.c with high grade of distinction between them..reffering to property priveledges even to the number of horses and the type of carriage they used!!!

:p :p
Tsar/Emperor = King

Tsaritsa/ Empress = Queen

Their children

In common language Tsarevich & Tsarevna. The heir of the throne was called Tsesarevich.

In officcial docs they were Grand Duke (Velikij Knjaz’) & Grand Dushesse (Velikaja Knjazhna) = Princes & Princesses.

BUT! The wife of the Grand Duke was also called Grand Dushesse, but in Russian it sounds Velikaja Knjaginja, not Knjazhna.



That’s all about the family of the Emperor.



Then aristocracy:

Knjaz’ = Prince (there was some mess with it in the beginnig of the 20-th century, when Russian arisctocrasy left their motherland, cause Knjaz’ wasn’t a member of the royal family, though in France/GB/ Italy he could called himself Prince. Knjaz’ was something like Duke /in Russian “Hertsog”. But in Russia that title wasn/t used.)

His wife, Knjaginja = Princesse= Dushesse=Hertsoginja

Their son Knjaz’=Prince

Their daughter until the wedding Knjazhna = Princess ( but I repeat, they weren’t the members of the royal family)



Low Graf & Grafinja - the most popular title among Russian aristocracy.

Also there were Baron & Baronessa, but indeed they were a German financiers.



Barin & Barinja weren’t the titles. There were the names of the Master and his wife. The pleasants called “Barin” his owner, no matter was he from the aristocracy or from the gentry ( in Russia they had no a title).

Their children:

Son – Barchuk ( but the more often Young/Molodoj Barin, cause Barchuk has a little negative shadow)

Daughter – Barishnja. Than Barishnja become the name of any girl from the good family in the town.

Splodger 06-27-2005 08:31 AM

Tsar = Emperor (derived from Ceasar as is the same with Keisar) and is above the rank of King - confusingly the Bulgarian Tsars were Kings.

The Russian and Austrian Imperial families wanted an elevated title than just Prince as usued by Royal families. A Duke outranks a royal prince which is why there are the elevated titles of Duke of York, Gloucester, Sparta, Brabant. They therefore opted for Grand Dukes/Arch Dukes to represent that the sons/duaghters of the Tsar were superior to Royal Princes and Royal Dukes... however a soverign Grand Duke (such as Luxembourge or Hesse) out-ranked the Imperial children.

Tsarvich is the title held by the heir apparent of the Imperial Russian throne - however it is only applicable to males. I would summise that had they ever needed to the female verisan would be Tsarovna or something similar. Vich is used in Russian patronomic names to indicate that the person is the son of... Ie Nicholas Alexandrovich is Nicholas son of Alexander.

There were also imperial Princes, however these were much lower ranking members of the family, great-grandchildren etc of a Tsar.

Note that Tsar and Csar are the same thing.

Alice Vilghelmina 06-27-2005 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Splodger
Tsarvich is the title held by the heir apparent of the Imperial Russian throne - however it is only applicable to males. I would summise that had they ever needed to the female verisan would be Tsarovna or something similar.

:p Tsarevich is the name of any son of the Tsar.
The heir is Tsesarevich.
Then Tsarevna is the name of any daughter of the Tsar.
Yes, in Russia the inheritance was by male side, BUT!
1. we had some Empress without their kings:) during the 18-th century.
2. Last Tsar Nikolay Alexandrovich wanted to change the right of the inheritance in woman's sake, cause he had very weak son. So he decided to prepare his elder daughter Ol'ga to rule. So she could be Tsesarevna and then Tsaritsa.

-ovna/evna = paternal woman's name f.e. Ol'ga Nikolaevna.

The name "Tsarevna" in Russia was since old-old times, when they could marry only to royal person or had to go to the monastery.

Splodger 06-28-2005 04:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alice Vilghelmina
:p Tsarevich is the name of any son of the Tsar.
The heir is Tsesarevich.
Then Tsarevna is the name of any daughter of the Tsar.
Yes, in Russia the inheritance was by male side, BUT!
1. we had some Empress without their kings:) during the 18-th century.
2. Last Tsar Nikolay Alexandrovich wanted to change the right of the inheritance in woman's sake, cause he had very weak son. So he decided to prepare his elder daughter Ol'ga to rule. So she could be Tsesarevna and then Tsaritsa.

-ovna/evna = paternal woman's name f.e. Ol'ga Nikolaevna.

The name "Tsarevna" in Russia was since old-old times, when they could marry only to royal person or had to go to the monastery.

I stand humberly corrected - thank you for this Alice.


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