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-   -   Who is the Head of the Imperial Family? (http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f80/who-is-the-head-of-the-imperial-family-16024.html)

Marengo 02-25-2008 07:06 AM

Who is the Head of the Imperial Family?
 
In this thread we can discuss the various claims on the headship of the Russian Imperial Family after 1917.


Marengo 02-25-2008 07:13 AM

As far as I know there are these possibilities:

1) GD Kyril became head of the IF, after him his son Vladimir and now Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna.

2) GD Kyril became head of the IF, after him his son Vladimir. As women do not have succession rights according to the Pauline laws after Maria the headship went to Prince Nicholas Romanovitch Romanov

3) GD Kyril did not succeed as his mother was not Orthodox at the time of his birth. So the first in line was Prince Vsevelod Ivanovitch Romanov. He was succeeded by Nicholas Romanovitch Romanov.

4) There is no head of the IF, Kyril and descendents can not succeed due tyo the reasons stated above while the other princess all married morganatically and lost there rights too.

--

Am I missing a few possibilities here? And which claim has the most support among monarchists in Russia or among other royal families?

Madame Royale 02-25-2008 08:51 AM

As far as I'm aware, Marengo, Grand Duchess Marija Vladimirovna has much support in Russia and is viewed as pretender to the throne. A clear example of this was during the reburial of the Dowager Tsarina Marija Fyodorovna in September of 2006.

Jason R Maier esq 02-25-2008 11:14 AM

Yeah I also think that Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna is viewed as the pretender and quite popular . . .

But all 4 of your ideas have merit to them . . .

lexi4 02-25-2008 11:48 AM

I believe Maria's claim was disputed by Nicholas Romanovich Romanov, head of the Romanov Family Association.

Hanna Regina 02-25-2008 12:40 PM

There is another possibility. I belive Grand Duke Vladimir Kirillovich changed the succession law to allow females to succeed, in order for his daughter to become the next claimant and head of the family. If that change is not accepted, these interpretations are possible:

There are no male heirs, since they all have married morganatically. Therefore the line should continue through the eldest son of the eldest daughter of the last rightful head of the family. If the rightful heir is GD Vladimir, then his eldest (only) daughter's, eldest son, GD Georgi, would now be the head.
If GD Vladimir would be considered disqualified because of his marriage, then the line would continue through GD Cyrill's eldest daughter, making Prince Andreas of Leiningen the current head of the family.

I'm sure this just goes on and on. Everything comes down to different interpretations of the same law, and the family might never agree on one solution. Too bad for them, they would be stronger if they were united and striving for the same goal, which, I suppose, is bringing back the Russian monarchy.

JPhinala 02-26-2008 12:57 PM

Vladimir had no right to change the House Laws, mostly because Paul created the House Laws as part of Imperial Decree making it a legal matter instead of a private one and seeing as Vladimir had no legaling standing he could not change the laws.

There are two camps.
1. Maria Vladimirovna (sometimes styled Grand Duchess, though in reality she is a Princess).
2. Prince Nicholas Romanovitch Romanov is the head of the Romanov Family Assosiation which says that no living person has the right to claim the title Tsar (which is pretty much dead on) and they recognize no individual as Head of the Family. Though many people (myself included) see him as head of the family.

My reasoning for supporting Nicholas Romanovitch is that there is precedent for ignoring morganatic marriages but there is no precedent for a woman becoming Head of the Family since Catherine II. Michael Aleksandrovitch married morganatically and Nicholas named him Tsar in his abdication document, changing House Law (de facto) to ignore Morganatic marriages. The Russian people would much more likely have adopted a system in which morganatic marriages no longer played a part before they would have allowed a woman to be Tsarina. (I hope no one thinks I'm being sexist. Believe it or not I'm an enormous feminist. My dislike of Maria Vladimirovna comes from a general distain for the greedy and presumptuous nature of Vladimirovichi in general. She's no better than Kyrill when it comes to lusting after the throne.)

In essence, there is no good answer to your question. Other than, perhaps, that there is no Head of the Imperial House.

Hope this was helpful,

lexi4 02-26-2008 01:15 PM

The bottom line is that there is no throne.

COUNTESS 02-26-2008 05:03 PM

Yes, lexi4, you hit the nail on the head. These are all good exercises for stimulation, but there is no throne. So, greed over a non-throne is a non-event.

lexi4 02-26-2008 05:12 PM

Exactly Countess. It's not like there is going to be a throne any time soon.

Marengo 02-26-2008 05:32 PM

Well that doesn't really matter, the Imperial House had a chef, like the other non-reigning RF in Europe. The interesting thing is that for non-reigning families these things usually ends up in disputes as there is no government anymore who has the authority to settle these matters. This resulted in disputed heads of the Brazilian and French Imperial family, of the French, Italian, Sicilian, Roumanian and even Portuguese royal houses.

---
Thanks for the explanation Jphinala, I suppose that Vladimir was an Emperor-de-jure so in that light his children (and grand children in the male line) would have been entitiled to the HIH Grand Duke/Duchess.

I think the position that Prince Nicholas Romanovich takes is a rather sensible one, esp. since the chances of restauration are extremely small. Do you know which point of view is supported by Russias monarchist associations? I believe Maria Vladimirovna has been very busy in getting the support of them and at least of the church.

Would Vladimirs marriage have been considered ebenburtig normally, as the Bragations were not a reigning dynasty. I believe one of the princesses in the Constantine branch married a Bragation too, with the blessing of the Tsar (though women did not have succession rights so he could be more forgivving here, as was the case with his niece marrying a Youssoupov.

Anna was Franziska 02-26-2008 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marengo (Post 734322)

I think the position that Prince Nicholas Romanovich takes is a rather sensible one, esp. since the chances of restauration are extremely small.

I agree with him. The old dynasty is over, so are the old rules. By the British rules of succession, he'd have it. He is the oldest son of the oldest son of Xenia and Sandro. Xenia was Nicholas's oldest sister, so on the death of her brothers and nephew, would have been next in line for the throne by the British standard. So the oldest son of her oldest son is certainly the 'heir'. Since Sandro, her second cousin, was her husband, her children were double Romanov. This is a much stronger claim than Maria V.'s IMO.

Quote:

Would Vladimirs marriage have been considered ebenburtig normally, as the Bragations were not a reigning dynasty. I believe one of the princesses in the Constantine branch married a Bragation too, with the blessing of the Tsar (though women did not have succession rights so he could be more forgivving here, as was the case with his niece marrying a Youssoupov.
The Tsar may have accepted those marriages, but Irina and the other princess had to sign over their rights (which were admittedly extremely small, even with the deaths of so many in the revolution they would STILL have been far down the line) and marry morgatanically.

BeatrixFan 02-26-2008 08:05 PM

Nicholas can't just throw out the old rules because it suits him. He can't just take up British rules of succession because it puts him as top dog.

COUNTESS 02-26-2008 09:03 PM

Actually, he can do anything he wants, as this is all pretend.

BeatrixFan 02-26-2008 09:09 PM

Not quite. If he wants to call himself a Prince and pretend he's Head of the House etc then that's fine but when he says he's representing the Romanov Dynasty then he's actually committing a form of fraud and cheating the public. And some of the Russian public look to the Romanovs for guidance -thats obvious from the reception Maria always gets there. There's a certain amount of responsibility attached.

COUNTESS 02-26-2008 09:21 PM

Caveat Emptor. Since, it is the responsibilty of people to know what they are buying, the same falls sure for this. There is not going to be a restoration of the Russian throne, so whatever he represents, may be fraud, and I agree with you on that, but the whole idea is fraudulent. If they are giving him money, that they are fools. And, if, there is a truer "Head of the Romanov Dynasty, let them argue it out. You can put a crown on a goat, but it will still be a goat.

Russophile 02-26-2008 09:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska (Post 734390)
I agree with him. The old dynasty is over, so are the old rules. By the British rules of succession, he'd have it. He is the oldest son of the oldest son of Xenia and Sandro. Xenia was Nicholas's oldest sister, so on the death of her brothers and nephew, would have been next in line for the throne by the British standard. So the oldest son of her oldest son is certainly the 'heir'. Since Sandro, her second cousin, was her husband, her children were double Romanov. This is a much stronger claim than Maria V.'s IMO.



The Tsar may have accepted those marriages, but Irina and the other princess had to sign over their rights (which were admittedly extremely small, even with the deaths of so many in the revolution they would STILL have been far down the line) and marry morgatanically.

Wait a second, I thought we were addressing Nicholas Romanov from the Nicholas I line, not Sandro's line. ????
Massie's book "The Romanov's: The Final Chapter" states that HM acknowledges Nicholas Romanov as the heir to the throne, though Nicholas, himself has stated that it doesn't matter anymore.

Anna was Franziska 02-26-2008 10:05 PM

What I mean to say is that Xenia's children are the most direct descendants of Alexander III and the closest relation left alive to Nicholas II, making them in my opinion a lot more worthy in the line of succession than going back to Nicholas I or even Alexander II. By the British laws the 'throne' would have gone to Xenia after the deaths of Nicholas, Misha and Alexei, so her sons would be the heirs. I don't believe in the old laws of succession for Russia since the dynasty is dead. The Pauline law was always silly anyway, if one Tsar decreed it, couldnt' another denounce it? Nicholas II should have done just that. In case Alexei didn't survive or was unable to rule due to his health, Olga would have made a fine Tsarina.

Russophile 02-26-2008 10:15 PM

Per Peter Kurth who spoke to Ian Liliburn who knew Olga, he said she wasn't very bright. So I don't think she would have made a very good Empress.

lexi4 02-27-2008 01:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska (Post 734439)
What I mean to say is that Xenia's children are the most direct descendants of Alexander III and the closest relation left alive to Nicholas II, making them in my opinion a lot more worthy in the line of succession than going back to Nicholas I or even Alexander II. By the British laws the 'throne' would have gone to Xenia after the deaths of Nicholas, Misha and Alexei, so her sons would be the heirs. I don't believe in the old laws of succession for Russia since the dynasty is dead. The Pauline law was always silly anyway, if one Tsar decreed it, couldnt' another denounce it? Nicholas II should have done just that. In case Alexei didn't survive or was unable to rule due to his health, Olga would have made a fine Tsarina.

I think he showed that he could pretty much do whatever he wanted regarding succession when he adbicated for Alexei. That (supposedly) wasn't legal either. But if he was an "absolute" autocrat of the Muscovite tradition, which he was, he could pretty much do whatever he wanted to do.


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