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morhange 06-23-2007 03:00 PM

Juan Carlos as "King of France"
 
I was browsing Wikipedia and I noticed that Juan Carlos is listed as first in line to the legitamist throne of France, after his cousin, Louis Alphonse (or Luis-Alfonso) I'd know this for a while, but I never really thought about it until now. Now, it's unlikely that Louis will predecease Juan Carlos, but let's just say that he did, and he left only his daughter, Eugenia. Would Juan Carlos accept the titles? I know he was upset about Louis' use of the title Duke of Anjou, so I wonder how Juan Carlos himself would react to find that he was suddenly titular King of France?

Of course, it doesn't REALLY matter, since France is a democracy, but what would the king's options be? Would he relinquish the titles for himself and all his descendants? Pass it on to Felipe? Bypass all of the people in line after him (including the GD of Luxembourg and the pretenders to the throne of Bourbon-Parma and Two Sicilies) and give the title back to the Duke of Orleans?

Of course, its' likely that Juan Carlos will die first, leaving Felipe King of Spain, and next in line (still, assuming Louis has no sons) If Felipe has a son, even if Leonor is to be queen of Spain, that son would stand to be next in line to the title. Of course, all this is assuming that Louis doesn't have any more children, or keeps having daughters.

Just curious to what others think, or if there has been anything said by the king himself on what would happen if this were to come to pass.

Edit: thread moved to the French forum /norwegianne

Redferns 06-23-2007 03:08 PM

I read somewhere that Juan Carlos was also king of Jerusalem...

madeleine victoria 06-23-2007 11:18 PM

I read an article too that King Juan Carlos is the King of Jerusalem but King of France? Can someone enlighten me how he became the first in line to the throne of France. Assuming that France is a monarchy. :smile: Of course we all know that even if JC accedes the throne or the title will be given to him France is no longer a monarchy.

Mari_* 06-24-2007 01:07 AM

Yes he actually is King of Jerusalem.

Let me see if Im getting it right, according to the article Juan Carlos is the first in line to the French throne and the second is Luis Alfonso?

morhange 06-24-2007 01:11 AM

No, Luis Alfonso is the current legitimst pretender to the French throne (which is contested by the comte de Paris, who is the...Orleanist (?) pretender) and Juan Carlos is next in line after Luis Alfonso, then Felipe, then it goes on to some distant relations.

MissSaga 06-24-2007 06:11 AM

He is already king of Spain, SPAIN, who is actually a monarchy, unlike France. If he took the title of king of France, there would be many lifted eyebrows for sure .. Being king of France is just an useless title, it doesn't mean anything .

madeleine victoria 06-24-2007 07:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MissSaga (Post 630405)
He is already king of Spain, SPAIN, who is actually a monarchy, unlike France. If he took the title of king of France, there would be many lifted eyebrows for sure .. Being king og France is just an useless title, it doesn't mean anything .


Yep that's for sure but that would only happen if the title will be granted to him and France is still a monarchy but I don't think that will ever happen considering that France is no longer a monarchy. Really? King of Jerusalem! wow! Even if he's not the highest paid monarch at least he governs two countries if this is true);););)

Henri M. 06-24-2007 07:41 AM

Don Juan Carlos de Borbón y Borbón can not be King of France since the final settlements in the Treaty of Utrecht (1713) which essentially blocked the thrones of France and Spain being occupied by the one and the same monarch.

Don Carlos II of Habsburg, King of Spain, had been both mentally and physically infirm from a very young age and it was clear that he could not produce an Heir. His nearest male relative as Heir to the throne of Spain was Louis de Bourbon, Duc de Bourgogne, the Dauphin. He was the eldest son of Don Carlos II nearest relative, namely his deceased sister Queen Marie Thérèse of France, spouse to King Louis XIV of France, le Roi Soleil.

Because it was seen as "undesirable" to see two mighty thrones (France and Spain) being occupied by the same monarch, in the Treaty of Utrecht was determined that the Dauphin would remain Heir to France and that his younger brother, Philippe de Bourbon, Duc d'Anjou would become King of Spain. And so it happened.

The younger Bourbon line, founded by Philippe de Bourbon, Duc d'Anjou has intermittently occupied the Spanish throne ever since. The elder Bourbon line by the Dauphin continued in France (Louis XV, Louis XVI, etc.)

Unfortunately the direct eldest Bourbon line became extinct in 1830 with the death of the last Dauphin, it indirectly continued via his nephew Henri, Duc de Chambord but finally became extinct with his death in 1883. The senior line of the Bourbons has ended. The last Kings of France were delivered by the Orléans, another Bourbon branch. They descend from the second son to Louis XIII (and therefore the younger brother of Louis XIV) Philippe de Bourbon, Duc de Orléans.

ladejesus 06-24-2007 09:35 AM

This is absolutely fascinating! I knew nothing about it. How is KJC King of Jerusalem? Does he use the title?

Henri M. 06-24-2007 12:55 PM

The titles are since véry long no more in use.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ladejesus (Post 630456)
This is absolutely fascinating! I knew nothing about it. How is KJC King of Jerusalem? Does he use the title?

No, the King is officially known as 'Su Majestad El Rey'. That is all.
In a longer version: Su Majestad Don Juan Carlos Alfonso Víctor María de Borbón y Borbón-Dos Sicilias, Rey de España.

The other titles are relics of eras gone. For an example Duque de Limburgo, which is now a title used by Queen Beatrix. Or Duque de Brabante, which is traditionally the title for the Heir to the King of the Belgians, at present Prince Philippe. The same counts for Archiduque de Austria, Duque de Güeldres (in the Netherlands), Conde de Flandres, de Hainaut, de Namur (in the Southern Netherlands, now Belgium), etc. These titles are derivate from the Spanish rule in the Netherlands, which ended (for the Northern Netherlands) in 1581 with the Oath of Abjuration, in which the Netherlands Provinces no longer recognized the King of Spain as their lawful Sovereign Lord.

RhapsodyBrat 06-24-2007 01:58 PM

wow, thanks for the info, Henri M.! that should clear some of the things up, as some of our members are looking towards the concept of "King of France" without looking at the Bourbon lineage.

ysbel 06-24-2007 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henri M. (Post 630571)
The other titles are relics of eras gone. For an example Duque de Limburgo, which is now a title used by Queen Beatrix. Or Duque de Brabante, which is traditionally the title for the Heir to the King of the Belgians, at present Prince Philippe. The same counts for Archiduque de Austria, Duque de Güeldres (in the Netherlands), Conde de Flandres, de Hainaut, de Namur (in the Southern Netherlands, now Belgium), etc. These titles are derivate from the Spanish rule in the Netherlands, which ended (for the Northern Netherlands) in 1581 with the Oath of Abjuration, in which the Netherlands Provinces no longer recognized the King of Spain as their lawful Sovereign Lord.

The Archduke of Austria title should have come from the Philip le Bel of Austria, husband of Juana the Mad (daughter of Ferdinand and Isabella). This couple were the ancestors of the Spanish Hapsburgs.

Henri M. 06-24-2007 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ysbel (Post 630606)
The Archduke of Austria title should have come from the Philip le Bel of Austria, husband of Juana the Mad (daughter of Ferdinand and Isabella). This couple were the ancestors of the Spanish Hapsburgs.

Correct.

Felipe el Hermoso (Philip of Habsburg, 'the Handsome') indeed was the first Habsburg King of Spain, since his marriage to Juana de Aragón y de Castilla. Since then the Habsburg Kings of Spain were Archduke of Austria too.

But since 1700, when Felipe V (Philippe de Bourbon, Duc d'Anjou - son of Louis XIV and Marie Thérèse de France) became King of Spain, the reigning House is Bourbon and no longer Habsburg.

With this the title Archduke (Archduchess) of Austria ended in Spain.

fanprincipesasturi 06-24-2007 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redferns (Post 630200)
I read somewhere that Juan Carlos was also king of Jerusalem...

La Monarquia

fanprincipesasturi 06-24-2007 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ladejesus (Post 630456)
This is absolutely fascinating! I knew nothing about it. How is KJC King of Jerusalem? Does he use the title?


when the catholic kings conquered GRANADA, the Pope of that time (I do not remember at this moment) gave him to fernado of aragón the title of king of Jerusalem.

to isabel of castilla and Fernando de aragón ,the Pope gave the title them of catholic kings and is something hereditary. king Juan Carlos has the title of catholic king

Kelly 06-25-2007 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henri M. (Post 630433)
Don Carlos II of Habsburg, King of Spain, had been both mentally and physically infirm from a very young age and it was clear that he could not produce an Heir. His nearest male relative as Heir to the throne of Spain was Louis de Bourbon, Duc de Bourgogne, the Dauphin. He was the eldest son of Don Carlos II nearest relative, namely his deceased sister Queen Marie Thérèse of France, spouse to King Louis XIV of France, le Roi Soleil.

I thought Queen Marie Therese of France and King Louis XIV only had one surviving child which was Louis de France Dauphin (1661-1711) who married Marianne Victoire of Bavaria. They in returned were the parents of Louis, Duc de Bourgogne and Philippe, duc D'Anjou. What about the agreement between the Sun King and Philip IV of Spain that Maria Therese would renounce her rights to the throne? Thus all her descendents could not claim to it.

fanprincipesasturi 06-26-2007 05:44 PM

La Tarde con Cristina ::: Escuchar: Mas Secciones, Cronica de la Historia - La conquista de Granada ::: Cadena COPE
if you want to know why the king of Spain he is king of jerusalem you can listen this.(spanish only)
it explains the conquest of granada

you must listen to from the minute 20mint 22s,
the Pope that gave the title to Fernando of aragón how king of jerusalem was Julio II
[IMG]http://groups.msn.com/isapi/fetch.dll?action=MyPhotos_GetPubPhoto&PhotoID=nFwCMHLsGUT8hWOMf8h0Rsh7O*KoG7plZCu1H5Ne*uM*2Iyt!JLiBOg[/IMG]

Henri M. 06-26-2007 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kelly (Post 631042)
I thought Queen Marie Therese of France and King Louis XIV only had one surviving child which was Louis de France Dauphin (1661-1711) who married Marianne Victoire of Bavaria. They in returned were the parents of Louis, Duc de Bourgogne and Philippe, duc D'Anjou. What about the agreement between the Sun King and Philip IV of Spain that Maria Therese would renounce her rights to the throne? Thus all her descendents could not claim to it.

You are right is lost the track with two Louis. It is Louis XIV's great-grandson who became his successor indeed.

Louis-Dieudonné de Bourbon / Louis XIV de France ('Le Roi Soleil')
x
Marie-Thérèse de France née Archiduchesse d'Autriche
=
Louis de Bourbon

----

Louis de Bourbon ('Le Grand Dauphin')
x
Marie-Anne de France née Duchesse de Bavière
=
1 - Louis de Bourbon, Duc de Bourgogne (his eldest son became Louis XV de France, 'Le Bien-Aimé')

----

Louis de Bourbon / 'Le Grand Dauphin'
x
Marie-Anne de France née Duchesse de Bavière
=
2 - Philippe de Bourbon, Duc d'Anjou (in 1700 Felipe V de España)

:flowers:

Toledo 06-26-2007 10:09 PM

First: the Wiki-answer Juan Carlos, King of Jerusalem

Then another site has a bio on king Juan Carlos and when you scroll down you see the long lists of titles he has, many just historical curiosities by today's reality. One of them is King of Jerusalem and the island of Sardinia as well as Archduke of Austria

ysbel 06-26-2007 10:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henri M. (Post 630618)
Correct.

Felipe el Hermoso (Philip of Habsburg, 'the Handsome') indeed was the first Habsburg King of Spain, since his marriage to Juana de Aragón y de Castilla. Since then the Habsburg Kings of Spain were Archduke of Austria too.

But since 1700, when Felipe V (Philippe de Bourbon, Duc d'Anjou - son of Louis XIV and Marie Thérèse de France) became King of Spain, the reigning House is Bourbon and no longer Habsburg.

With this the title Archduke (Archduchess) of Austria ended in Spain.

OK that makes sense Henri.

But I think Maria Teresa the queen of Louis XIV was primarily an Infanta of Spain being the daughter of Felipe IV (that family interests me because of the beautiful painting Las Meninas that Velasquez painted of Maria Teresa's younger sister) although of course I see she could have claimed the title of Archduchess of Austria. :flowers:

[edit-now I see that the French tended to call her Marie Terese d'Autriche like you said but I wonder why it wasn't Maria-Terese d'Espagne]


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