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-   -   Princess Máxima's Future Title (http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f48/princess-m-ximas-future-title-12957.html)

Marengo 01-27-2007 09:08 AM

Princess Máxima's Future Title
 
Today's 'Telegraaf' has a frontpage article (which continues on page 3) on Maxima with the title 'Maak Maxima koningin' (Make Maxima Queen). Int he article several people plea for Maxima as Queen instead of just a Princess after her husbands becomes King.

'Maak Máxima straks koningin' - telegraaf.nl [Binnenland]

-
Also in Today's Telegraaf a full page profile on Willem-Alexander and Maxima. Not much new information, I only noticed that they have lunches with 24 outstanding people (in the aerias of culture, society etc) who do not receive media attention every now and then at Eikenhorst.

eireann 01-27-2007 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marengo
Today's 'Telegraaf' has a frontpage article (which continues on page 3) on Maxima with the title 'Maak Maxima koningin' (Make Maxima Queen). Int he article several people plea for Maxima as Queen instead of just a Princess after her husbands becomes King.

'Maak Máxima straks koningin' - telegraaf.nl [Binnenland]

-
Also in Today's Telegraaf a full page profile on Willem-Alexander and Maxima. Not much new information, I only noticed that they have lunches with 24 outstanding people (in the aerias of culture, society etc) who do not receive media attention every now and then at Eikenhorst.

I didn´t know that she wouldn´t automatically become Queen - I assumed that was normal I thought it was only when the female was inheriting the throne that she was not able to name her husband King as he would outrank her. Interesting....

Henri M. 01-27-2007 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eireann
I didn´t know that she wouldn´t automatically become Queen - I assumed that was normal I thought it was only when the female was inheriting the throne that she was not able to name her husband King as he would outrank her. Interesting....

Already now Máxima is not 'de Prinses van Oranje' because since in 1983 the succession to the Throne has become in order of seniority regardless of the gender, the Government wanted to create equal treatment.

In the Act on the membership of the Royal House 2002 is fixed that the official styles are:

The Sovereign is male:
Z.M. de Koning
&
H.K.H. de Prinses der Nederlanden


The Sovereign is female:
H.M. de Koningin
&
Z.K.H. de Prins der Nederlanden


The Heir is male:
Z.K.H. de Prins van Oranje
&
H.K.H. prinses [.......] der Nederlanden


The Heir is female:
H.K.H. de Prinses van Oranje
&
Z.K.H. prins [.......] der Nederlanden


Other children to the present, the previous or the future King:
Z.K.H. prins [.......] der Nederlanden
H.K.H. prinses [......] der Nederlanden



Some members of Parliament have made a plea to let Máxima become styled as 'Queen Máxima' because this would fit in the tradition.
We will have to wait if the Cabinet, which will arrange the accession of the new King, will do something with these pleas.

MissSaga 01-27-2007 07:31 PM

So as it is now, Maxima will not be queen of the Netherlands ?

Henri M. 01-27-2007 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MissSaga
So as it is now, Maxima will not be queen of the Netherlands ?

Indeed, if we have to follow the intention of the Act on the membership of the Royal House 2002, Máxima will become The Princess of the Netherlands as consort to The King.

Like her three male predecessors
- Prince Hendrik, Duke of Mecklenburg
- Prince Bernhard, Prince of Lippe-Biesterfeld
- Prince Claus, Jonkheer van Amsberg
also to Máxima Zorreguieta Cerruti was granted the own title, the own style, the own arms and the own flag as Princess of the Netherlands.

This already was a break with tradition because all female spouses to previous Kings or to Princes of Orange were styled with their spouses' titles. To avoid discriminatory unclarities ('Why is a female spouse The Princess of Orange and why can a male spouse never be The Prince of Orange? Why is a female spouse The Queen and why can a male spouse never be The King?) the government opted for a total equal system to both male and female Sovereigns, Heirs and their consorts.

This is the official style. You are free to call Máxima: The Princess of Orange. But the Court and the Government never do so.
They always use the title which was officially granted to her, and that is: 'Princess of the Netherlands'.

But it is possible that, in spite of the new Act, the then ruling Cabinet will let the States-General (Parliament) know 'that it is desirable that the Consort to His Majesty The King will follow the traditional style and will be 'known as' The Queen. But for some reason I have the feeling this will not happen, because the Act (which had a long and difficult process) is so straightforward and clear on these styles and titles. But you never know, we will see what will happen when King Willem IV Alexander assumes the kingship.

LadyK 01-28-2007 12:33 AM

I would be suprised if Maxima isn't called Queen of the Netherlands (HM the Queen Consort). I think it would cause more comment if she is not-it is a rank thing- a queen is of a higher rank than a princess. With Queen Beatrix, and her predecessors, her husband, Prince Claus, was styled Prince as naming him King would elevate him above her. However, a king with a princess for a wife? It doesn't seem to work, and not for the cohesive, loving unit that W-A and Maxima have always projected. And do Queens Silvia, Sonja, Sofia and Poala seem "beneath" their husbands? Even if they are not the ones who technically 'run' the country, they play a very important, and very visible role. Mathilde has also been created a princess in her own right, but she will also be styled as Queen. The only woman who may, of the current future monarchs, remain styled as Princess would be the Duchess of Cornwall, who has already stated her intention to be named HRH the Princess Consort.

The Watcher 01-28-2007 07:09 AM

I'm sure Maxima will become Queen. There is a huge majority in the parlement to make her Queen. :flowers: An article in the Telegraaf said that at least CDA, PvdA, VVD and Groenlinks want to make her Queen. And I quite sure that for example Christenunie and SGP will agree too.

KikkiB 01-28-2007 07:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LadyK
I would be suprised if Maxima isn't called Queen of the Netherlands (HM the Queen Consort). I think it would cause more comment if she is not-it is a rank thing- a queen is of a higher rank than a princess. With Queen Beatrix, and her predecessors, her husband, Prince Claus, was styled Prince as naming him King would elevate him above her. However, a king with a princess for a wife? It doesn't seem to work, and not for the cohesive, loving unit that W-A and Maxima have always projected. And do Queens Silvia, Sonja, Sofia and Poala seem "beneath" their husbands? Even if they are not the ones who technically 'run' the country, they play a very important, and very visible role. Mathilde has also been created a princess in her own right, but she will also be styled as Queen. The only woman who may, of the current future monarchs, remain styled as Princess would be the Duchess of Cornwall, who has already stated her intention to be named HRH the Princess Consort.

This is an interesting discussion! It seems that the royal titles (and protocol) haven't caught up with the equality of the sexes (likestilling) of our modern day society. And for the Dutch monarchy, they will sort of be in a new situation when Queen Beatrix abdicates, they haven't had a king for over 100 years. So I guess they have to think anew when that time comes, and I guess there will be a great deal of thought behind whatever the decision will be.

And also, I don't believe the queens mentioned above are "beneath" their husbands. Even if their husbands are the country's "leader" in the official life, and with such strong and independent wives, I wouldn't be surprised if it is the opposite behind the palace doors :rofl:

Henri M. 01-28-2007 08:50 AM

Howling with the wolves in the forest
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by The Watcher
I'm sure Maxima will become Queen. There is a huge majority in the parlement to make her Queen. :flowers: An article in the Telegraaf said that at least CDA, PvdA, VVD and Groenlinks want to make her Queen. And I quite sure that for example Christenunie and SGP will agree too.

Yes but in 2002 the very same States-General (parliament), in overwhelming majority (if not unanimously) voted for the present Act on the membership of the Royal House..... They knew what they were voting for. So it is a little bit a cheap howling with the wolves in the forest, to start a new debate on the title of Princess Máxima.

And we forgot one big thing: the Queen agreed with the new Act. It has taken a long time and various deliberations but in 2002 finally the Act was modernized and approved and consented and signed. On base of the very same Act the children of Prince Friso and Prince Constantijn are no prince or princess. On base of the very same Act Prince Friso lost his style 'Prince of the Netherlands' when loosing his membership of the Royal House.

But okay, let us see what will happen in the future.
Why is it discriminatory that Máxima will not become Queen?
And why was it not discriminatory that the spouses of Queen Wilhelmina, Queen Juliana, Queen Beatrix and the future Queen Catharina-Amalia never were or will be 'King'?

Marengo 01-28-2007 09:12 AM

True Henri, it would be discriminatory to leyt her become Queen indeed. And I actaly heard some surprised reactions from people around me (who are not as involved with royalty) that she will become Queen while Claus was not a King.

Still I am hoping that she will become Queen though, considering tradition and esp. considering international custom.

Verde Esmeralda 01-28-2007 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henri M.
Yes but in 2002 the very same States-General (parliament), in overwhelming majority (if not unanimously) voted for the present Act on the membership of the Royal House..... They knew what they were voting for. So it is a little bit a cheap howling with the wolves in the forest, to start a new debate on the title of Princess Máxima.

Henri M., is the debate on Maxima's right to become Queen starting just now, because of the 5-year-anniversary thing, or was it already relevant to the public opinion in the Netherlands in 2002? Maybe the focus was put on the controversy of her father and not really in that subject? :ermm:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henri M.
And we forgot one big thing: the Queen agreed with the new Act.

She probably didn't expect Máximas figure to remain this popular five years ago...did she? :ermm:

prinsesbeagle 01-28-2007 01:10 PM

nope
 
I don't think so. The Queen seems to really like Maxima and probably was certain she would remain popular and do a good job, or else I doubt she would have agreed with the marriage.

As for why she signed the law is easily explained: she cannot refuse to sign a law. If she did, it would have been a scandal. Even RUMORS that she didn't agree would have caused commotion, so she did the smart thing and signed the law as they wanted it. And even the parliament back then did the smart thing: this way they postponed the decision untill a later date, where they knew this question would be far less a hot topic and would not cause a commotion. Smart. Cuz these days NOT giving her the title of

I doubt there will be much of a discussion when the time comes. An overwhealming part of the parliament will vote yes et voila.

Henri M. 01-28-2007 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Verde Esmeralda
Henri M., is the debate on Maxima's right to become Queen starting just now, because of the 5-year-anniversary thing, or was it already relevant to the public opinion in the Netherlands in 2002?

Yes, it has everything to do with the first lustrum of Máxima as Princess of the Netherlands.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Verde Esmeralda
She probably didn't expect Máximas figure to remain this popular five years ago...did she? :ermm:

Well, the Act on the Membership of the Royal House 2002 (pdf file) was signed by the Queen on May 30th 2002 and publicized in the State Gazette on June 11th 2002, so the Queen already was aware of the Máximania which developed since January 31st 2001, Máxima's first appearance with the Prince.

prinsesbeagle 01-28-2007 01:16 PM

There isn't really even a discussion going on right now. De Telegraaf brought this topic up and decided to poll a few parties. When it becomes relevant, most parties will be quick to agree with the title of queen for Maxima. Seeing how popular she is, they're not going to burn their fingers on this one.

Henri M. 01-28-2007 01:46 PM

Act on the membership of the Royal House 2002
 
Let me give you the three relevant articles on titles:


Article 7
The Heir Apparent bears the title Prince (Princess) of Orange.


Article 8
1. The Heir Apparent, and the King who has abdicated the kingship, bear the title Prince (Princess) of the Netherlands.

2. The title of Prince (Princess of the Netherlands) can only and exclusively be granted by Royal Decree to the following members of the Royal House:
a. the spouse of the King; 1
b. the children born in a marriage of the King;
c. the spouse of the Heir Apparent;
d. the children born in a marriage of the Heir Apparent;
e. to those who can succeed the King according article 4. 2

3. The title Prince (Princess) of the Netherlands will revert with the loss of the membership of the Royal House. 3



Article 9
1. The King, the Heir Apparent, and the King who has abdicated the kingship, bear the title Prince (Princess of Orange-Nassau).

2. The title Prince (Princess) of Orange-Nassau can only and eclusively be granted by Royal Decree to members of the Royal House.

3. Within three months after the loss of the membership of the Royal House, a decision will be given by Royal Decree on the retaining of the title Prince (Princess) of Orange-Nassau as a personal title for those who have lost the membership. 4

4. By the Royal Decree mentioned in the third part, also the family-name will be determined. 5

------

see 1:
this means Princess Máxima remains a Princess of the Netherlands (instead of 'Queen of the Netherlands').

see 2:
with this is meant that when there are no hereditary successors anymore, the States-General (parliament) can designate a successor (for an example Prince Carlos de Bourbon de Parme) and he then will be granted the title Prince of the Netherlands, Prince of Orange-Nassau as well.

see 3:
this happened to Prince Friso: when he engaged into a marriage with miss Mabel Martine Wisse Smit without requesting for an Act of Consent. By doing so, he lost his membership and therefore also his title Prince of the Netherlands.

see 4:
this happened to Prince Friso: after the loss of his membership of the Royal House, a Royal Decree was issued to retain his title Prince of Orange-Nassau as a personal title.

see 5:
this happened to Prince Friso: a Royal Decree was issued to establish the family-name Van Oranje-Nassau van Amsberg, with the noble and hereditary title Count of Orange-Nassau and the noble and hereditary predicate Jonkheer van Amsberg.

Verde Esmeralda 01-28-2007 08:47 PM

Thanks Henri M. for the .pdf and the info!

dazzling 01-29-2007 05:05 PM

intresting article.

Maxima should be Dutch Queen say MPs

Monday 29 January 2007
A majority of MPs think Princess Maxima should be given the title queen when Crown Prince Willem Alexander becomes king. The Christian Democrats, Labour and full article & source

charlottestreasures 01-29-2007 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dazzling
intresting article.

Maxima should be Dutch Queen say MPs

Monday 29 January 2007
A majority of MPs think Princess Maxima should be given the title queen when Crown Prince Willem Alexander becomes king. The Christian Democrats, Labour and full article & source

I always thought that she would be called a queen anyway. I am wondering what they are trying to say. Queen consort is usually the title given.

Henri M. 01-29-2007 07:35 PM

Courtesy title
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by charlottestreasures
I already found the answer to my question above in a previous post. Thanks.

It is already determined by Act that the female spouse of the Sovereign is styled as 'The Princess of the Netherlands' but the majority of the political fractions hinted she can, au titre courteoisie, be referred in the traditional style.

Her official style as consort will be
'Her Royal Highness The Princess of the Netherlands'.

Then her courtesy style could become
'Her Majesty Queen Máxima, The Princess of the Netherlands'.

I find it strange anyway because the Government and the Royal Court never use the traditional title 'The Princess of Orange' for Máxima.
I fail to see the logic in denying Máxima the traditonal style as spouse to the Heir Apparent, but doing the other way round as spouse of the King. My preference is that the Act is strictly followed: a male Consort is 'The Prince of the Netherlands' and a female Consort is 'The Princess of the Netherlands'.

lucien 01-30-2007 03:57 AM

My preference is that the tradition is followed and Máxima will be known as Queen once Alexander is Monarch,as in Queen Silvia,Queen Sonja etc..

No need to reinvent the wheel,it's already there.


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