The Royal Forums

The Royal Forums (http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/)
-   British Royals (http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f23/)
-   -   The Royal Family Order (RFO) and other Royal Orders and Decorations (http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f23/the-royal-family-order-rfo-and-other-royal-orders-and-decorations-12757.html)

Warren 05-23-2007 04:19 AM

The Royal Family Order (RFO) and other Royal Orders and Decorations
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GillW
Until Majesty get around to writing that article, you can read all about it - some fascinating stuff - at Wikipedia:Royal Family Order - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Hmm... Wikipedia lists Zara Phillips as having the RFO. Unlikely?

banda_windsor 05-23-2007 05:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warren
Hmm... Wikipedia lists Zara Phillips as having the RFO. Unlikely?

i think it might be true. we just haven't seen it probably.

Well, i wonder when Camila will receive the RFO. I mean, it would be very funny if she didn't get that. Because the RFO is a sign that the Queen acknowladge the reciepient of the order as her family. If Camila didn't get one, how ridiculous it would be. Although, the Duchess of York didn't recieve the RFO also.

msleiman 05-23-2007 10:35 AM

The Royal Family Order (RFO) and other Royal Orders and Decorations
 
In another thread it said that Zara had the Queen's family order. Does anyone have a picture of her wearing it? Also do the York girls have the order? Please post any pictures any of the ladies wearing this order!

BeatrixFan 05-23-2007 10:48 AM

Not sure about Zara actually but I'm pretty sure that we'll be seeing the York girls get it in the near future as well as the Duchess of Cornwall (which could be next week when the Emperor and Empress of Japan visit).

msleiman 05-23-2007 10:53 AM

Thanks, can not wait to see the pictures from the visit!

BeatrixFan 05-23-2007 11:15 AM

Although having said that it looks like the Prince of Wales and Duchess of Cornwall are in Scotland when the dinner is held at Buckingham Palace so I don't think we will see any new family orders on display.

yvr girl 05-23-2007 02:23 PM

I think it will be a few years for the York girls
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
Not sure about Zara actually but I'm pretty sure that we'll be seeing the York girls get it in the near future as well as the Duchess of Cornwall (which could be next week when the Emperor and Empress of Japan visit).

I wouldn't expect them to receive them until they are done with school, and working for the 'firm'.

I've read that Zara has it as well, but I've never seen her with one.

Warren 05-24-2007 08:25 AM

Wikipedia states that Zara Phillips has the Royal Family Order, but this is open to doubt.

HMQueenElizabethII 05-24-2007 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
Although having said that it looks like the Prince of Wales and Duchess of Cornwall are in Scotland when the dinner is held at Buckingham Palace so I don't think we will see any new family orders on display.

At the Concert/Dinner in America in January, when the Duchess wore her new necklace, the Prince of Wales put on alot of Orders, while the Duchess was without the Orders, so i'm doubt we would see any Orders soon with the Duchess of Cornwall.

CasiraghiTrio 05-24-2007 10:11 AM

Would Zara wear her RFO on her dress at the Trooping events?
It is odd that Sarah, Duchess of York never received one. I always thought the Queen loved her so much, at least in the early years of the marriage.

As sirhon said, at least it is good that Diana had the RFO and the Dutch order, because she certainly deserved them at least. She earned them through much dedication and hard work.

Warren 05-24-2007 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CasiraghiTrio
Would Zara wear her RFO on her dress at the Trooping events? .

No. The Order is only worn at State functions, generally tiara events.

BeatrixFan 05-24-2007 11:10 AM

She has been with the firm for two years though and she is the future Queen. The Emperor of Japan gave Crown Princess Victoria the Order of the Chrysanthemum on his visit to Sweden and I thought that maybe Camilla would get the same at the dinner and would be sporting the sash, badge and the Royal Family Order but I suppose we'll have to wait a little longer.

yvr girl 05-24-2007 03:19 PM

Fergie never got one
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
She has been with the firm for two years though and she is the future Queen. The Emperor of Japan gave Crown Princess Victoria the Order of the Chrysanthemum on his visit to Sweden and I thought that maybe Camilla would get the same at the dinner and would be sporting the sash, badge and the Royal Family Order but I suppose we'll have to wait a little longer.

And she and Andrew were together for about 6 years before they parted ways.

BeatrixFan 05-24-2007 03:50 PM

Yes but Fergie wasn't married to the Prince of Wales and wasn't polishing her tiara for a certain ceremony at Wesminster Abbey.

bct88 05-25-2007 12:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
She has been with the firm for two years though and she is the future Queen. The Emperor of Japan gave Crown Princess Victoria the Order of the Chrysanthemum on his visit to Sweden and I thought that maybe Camilla would get the same at the dinner and would be sporting the sash, badge and the Royal Family Order but I suppose we'll have to wait a little longer.

I doubt that Camilla will get the Order of the Chrysanthemum. Apart from the monarch, the heir receives it, and not the spouse of the heir. No female monarch has this order, except for Elizabeth, Beatrix, and Margrethe. As a consort, and other female members of royal families, the Order of the Precious Crown is bestowed, so if Camilla is to receive any Japanese order, she would receive the Order of the Precious Crown.

wbenson 05-25-2007 03:00 PM

I don't believe the upcoming visit is a true state visit, so I doubt any orders would be exchanged.

BeatrixFan 05-25-2007 05:33 PM

Well, the visit to Estonia wasn't a state one but orders were exchanged.

Henri M. 05-25-2007 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HMQueenElizabethII
At the Concert/Dinner in America in January, when the Duchess wore her new necklace, the Prince of Wales put on alot of Orders, while the Duchess was without the Orders, so i'm doubt we would see any Orders soon with the Duchess of Cornwall.

That has to do with the dresscode. When the gentleman wears cravate noire (black tie), the usance is not to wear decorations.

The British (and the British Commonwealth) however, has a custom that gentlemen can wear small decorations in combination with a smoking. No sash, no breast star: just small decorations. When the Prince of Orange visited Australia last year, he wore small decorations on his black tie. This was the very first time he ever did so, as on the Continent never decorations are worn with black tie. See this picture. So the Prince adapted to the British / Britis Commonwealth custom.

You see the Princess of Orange wore no decorations. This is in line with the general dresscode: ladies do not wear decorations during black tie events. Not on the Continent and also not in Britain or the British Commonwealth. So no matter how many decorations a royal lady has: during a black tie event she will not wear any.

RoyalProtocol 07-03-2007 06:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henri M. (Post 617171)

You see the Princess of Orange wore no decorations. This is in line with the general dresscode: ladies do not wear decorations during black tie events. Not on the Continent and also not in Britain or the British Commonwealth. So no matter how many decorations a royal lady has: during a black tie event she will not wear any.

This is not quite true, Her Majesty The Queen often wears the star of an order with black tie, though no other decorations are put on, for examples see photos of dinner on board Britannia with President Regan in the 1980s and lots of other official black tie functions, CHOGM dinners are also a good example.

Von Schlesian 07-04-2007 03:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoyalProtocol (Post 635566)
This is not quite true, Her Majesty The Queen often wears the star of an order with black tie, though no other decorations are put on, for examples see photos of dinner on board Britannia with President Regan in the 1980s and lots of other official black tie functions, CHOGM dinners are also a good example.

Not only that, but we often see HRH The Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh wear the Star of the Order of the Garter and badge of the Order of Merit (suspended from miniature width neck ribband) along with court-mounted miniatures when wearing black tie.

wbenson 07-04-2007 11:50 AM

The official portrait of the Queen of Canada was taken at a black tie function, but the Queen is wearing the insignia of the Order of Canada and order of Military Merit, and Prince Philip is wearing miniature decorations.

GillW 07-10-2007 05:34 AM

Current holders of the Queen's Family Order
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Warren (Post 615819)
Hmm... Wikipedia lists Zara Phillips as having the RFO. Unlikely?

Well if it did when you posted, it doesn't now.
This is the list they give:

HRH The Princess Margaret, Countess of Snowdon (deceased)
Diana, Princess of Wales (deceased)
HRH Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester (deceased)
HRH Princess Marina, Duchess of Kent (deceased)
HRH The Princess RoyalCountess of Harewood (deceased)
HRH Princess Alice, Countess of Athlone (deceased)
HRH The Duchess of Gloucester
HRH The Princess Royal (Princess Anne)
HRH Princess Alexandra
HRH The Duchess of Kent
HRH The Countess of Wessex
It should be noted that neither HRH The Duchess of Cornwall nor Sarah, Duchess of York have, at the time of writing, received the honour.

Warren 07-11-2007 06:31 AM

Distrusting Wikipedia...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GillW (Post 638901)
Well if it did when you posted, it doesn't now.
This is the list they give..

No, Zara is still (probably wrongly) listed:

quote from Wikipedia (under the heading 'Wearing the Order'): "Those who wear that of The Queen only are The Countess of Wessex, The Princess Royal, Zara Phillips, The Duchess of Gloucester and The Duchess of Kent."

Von Schlesian 07-11-2007 09:00 PM

Generally, only the more significant royal family members receive the highest order of chivalry (Order of the Garter, Order of the Elephant, Order of Leopold etc). Those further down the line of succession may receive a graded order such as the Royal Victorian Order, Order of the Dannebrog or Order of Leopold II.

Sovereigns are each their state's font of honour and as such may make appointments as ordinary members of orders within the set guidelines of that order (Order of the Garter - 25). However, the limit does not apply to additional appointments of members of the royal family (being thus created Royal Knights and Ladies), or of foreign monarchs and heads of state (stranger knights and ladies).

Lastly, it can be argued that the House of Windsor does indeed have a house order (in the European sense), The Royal Victorian Order. This order is awarded for personal service rendered to Her Majesty The Queen, Her Majesty's vice-regal representatives and to members of the royal family. This order is strictly in the personal gift of Her Majesty, with recommendations being made directly to and coming from Her Majesty, unlike the other graded orders (The Bath, St. Michael and St. George and Order of the British Empire), all recommendations to which are made through the parliament.

joye 07-26-2007 09:10 PM

QEII Royal Family Order 2nd class
 
On Royal Jewels Board, I recently came across htt://www.regiments.org/biograohy/royals/1947birG.htm
a site stating The Duchess of Gloucester's honours etc.
It states that in 1973 The Duchess had QEII Royal Family Order 2nd class.

What does 2nd class mean? Why is there a class difference?
What does a 2nd class Family Order look like?

Whilst reading "The Last Princess" by Matthew Dennison, a story of Princess Beatrice, the youngest daughter of Q. Victoria, it says on page 234, Beatrice received from her brother, Edward VII, His Family Order 2nd class. ???

Can anyone offer and explanation of this 2nd class Royal Family Order?
I am most intrigued and would love to know more.
joye

Ranunculus Rex 07-26-2007 09:27 PM

I believe that the First Class of the British Royal Family Orders (each created and bestowed on ladies by the reigning Sovereign) is reserved for those of queenly rank (foreign royalty) and the daughters of the Sovereign.

The Second Class would be for other Royal ladies by birth or marriage; the Third and Fourth Classes are for non-Royal ladies.

RR

joye 07-27-2007 02:32 AM

QEII Royal Family Order 2nd class
 
Sophie, Countess of Wessex has the FRO, so your theory would not hold.

Ranunculus Rex 07-27-2007 04:29 AM

My research indicates that Her present Majesty's Royal Family Order is not distinguished by classes, contrary to past custom.

I do not know if the citation in Regiments.Org is accurate, or reflected then-current practice, or was something assumed from the practice of earlier reigns.

RR

davo 08-12-2007 01:07 AM

Royal Family Orders - listings in Royal Service V2
 
Volume 2 of Royal Service (Third Millenium, 2001) lists their being two sizes for the Royal Family Orders of Edward VII, George VI and Elizabeth II, and four sizes for George V.

For the current reign it lists...

Size one
HM, Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother
and HM Queen Mary

Size two
HRH Princess Margaret, Countess of Snowdon
HRH Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester
HRH Princess Marina, Duchesss of Kent
HRH The Princess Royal (Princess Mary, Countess of Harewood)
HRH Princess Alice, Countess of Athlone
HRH Princess Alexandra, the Honourable Mrs Angus (later Hon Lady) Ogilvy
HRH The Princess Royal
HRH The Duchess of Kent
HRH The Duchess of Gloucester
HRH The Princess of Wales

Since then we would have to add

HRH The Countess of Wessex.

Photos of all of the badges and the different sizes are show in the chapter on the royal family orders. It is interesting to note that size one badge for Elizabeth II is listed as coming from Princess Margaret and that the queen now wears size one badges of George V and George VI (even though she received size three and two respectively. These three size one badges seem to have been Queen Mary's and after her death were worn by her granddaughters.

jcbcode99 11-12-2007 03:55 PM

Any photos detailing the difference?

PR Princess 11-12-2007 04:00 PM

Heres a website of list of orders and medals, some with pictures and descriptions:

ODM of the United Kingdom: Text List

magnik 11-12-2007 04:17 PM

Does anyone have a photo of the Queen or someone else wearing the Order of the Thistle?

PR Princess 11-12-2007 04:23 PM

I don't know if you can see it clearly, but heres one of the Queen

1. is how the Order of Thistle looks like (in website: ODM of the United Kingdom: Order of the Thistle)
2. the Queen wearing the Order of Thistle ( I found it here: Royal Insight > Out and About > The Queen spends a week in Scotland)

Heres another one I found it here, which has more information:

BBC NEWS | UK | Scotland | Queen knights royal headmaster

magnik 11-12-2007 04:38 PM

Thanks a lot PR Princess:flowers:

jcbcode99 11-12-2007 06:03 PM

Fascinating website, PRPrincess--Thank you for sharing it!

PR Princess 11-12-2007 08:18 PM

No problem! :flowers:

Al_bina 11-12-2007 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bct88 (Post 616797)
I doubt that Camilla will get the Order of the Chrysanthemum. Apart from the monarch, the heir receives it, and not the spouse of the heir. No female monarch has this order, except for Elizabeth, Beatrix, and Margrethe. As a consort, and other female members of royal families, the Order of the Precious Crown is bestowed, so if Camilla is to receive any Japanese order, she would receive the Order of the Precious Crown.

You are so right, bct88. According to my Japanese-to-the-core grandmother–in-law, it is highly unlikely for Duchess of Cornwall to get the Order of the Chrysanthemum, because it is awarded to exclusively for men. As exceptions of the rules and bow to modern realities, the above Order was given to reigning European queens, female presidents, and a Crown Princess.
If Duchess of Cornwall happens to be awarded by the Japanese Imperial family, she is most likely to get the Order of Precious Crown that can be given to foreign female dignitaries.

sinulord 03-22-2009 10:30 PM

I have a question... i dont know if this is the right forum, but could someone please satisfy my curiosity. I read on Grand Duke Vladimir Kirillovich's wikipedia article that he also received the Grand Cross of the Royal Victorian Order. Does anyone know when he received it and which monarch gave it to him? And also why was it given to him? (Even though i do know that he was a second cousin of King George VI)...

Royal Fan 03-22-2009 11:22 PM

Id like to see Prince Henry get the Garter

Mermaid1962 03-22-2009 11:25 PM

I'm sure that he will, even if it's after his father becomes King. It could happen before that, though.:flowers:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Royal Fan (Post 911720)
Id like to see Prince Henry get the Garter


RoyalProtocol 03-24-2009 07:41 PM

I doubt Prince Harry will get the Garter in the current reign, perhaps in the next- whoever that may be!

I've said it before elsewhere but it would be nice if the Countess of Wessex got the GCVO in June for her 10th Wedding Anniversary

Baroness of Books 09-25-2011 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davo (Post 652534)
Volume 2 of Royal Service (Third Millenium, 2001) lists there being two sizes for the Royal Family Orders of Edward VII, George VI and Elizabeth II, and four sizes for George V. For the current reign it lists...

I see Princess Michael of Kent isn't listed here, so I'm assuming she doesn't have the Family Order. If that's the case, then Wikipedia made an error in including her here:

Royal Family Order of Queen Elizabeth II - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The dowager Duchess of Grafton is also listed as a recipient, and I don't know if this is a mistake as well. Knowing Wikipedia, I'm skeptical of much of what it publishes.

yvr girl 09-26-2011 01:16 AM

I hadn't realized that Queen Victoria did not have a family order.

IloveCP 09-26-2011 02:12 AM

The Royal Order of Sartorial Splendor: Royal Splendor 101: Royal Family Orders

Baroness of Books 09-26-2011 08:57 AM

:previous: Thank you, IloveCP. Guess Wikipedia needs to check some facts! :eek:

Madame Royale 09-26-2011 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baroness of Books (Post 1320058)
The dowager Duchess of Grafton is also listed as a recipient, and I don't know if this is a mistake as well. Knowing Wikipedia, I'm skeptical of much of what it publishes.

The Dowager Duchess of Grafton is a recipient of the said gift.

Baroness of Books 09-26-2011 11:25 AM

:previous: Ah, thank you. Wikipedia lists Princess Michael as a current holder of the Order and had also originally listed the Duchess of Cambridge, but has since corrected that latter error. Hence my skepticism of that info on the site.

Molly2101 09-26-2011 12:06 PM

They had Catherine listed already? Gotta love Wikipedia and it's accuracy... No doubt Catherine will get it soon though. Many others have to wait a few years, or at least provide a grandchild, to receive the Family Order but with her position Catherine will get it in the next couple of years. Camilla got it in 2007, no?

The Royal Family order is different than the Royal Victorian Order, right? I am not very clued up on this side of Royalty, but the Victoria order is the one that has the initials GCVO or KCVO after their title? Sophie received that before Edward did, which I found odd. Does Camilla have that?

Lumutqueen 09-26-2011 12:41 PM

I don't think Catherine will get the RFO that quick. Sarah never got it and she was married to Andrew for 10 years?
Quote:

Originally Posted by Molly2101 (Post 1320239)
The Royal Family order is different than the Royal Victorian Order, right?

Different order all together, Royal Victorian Order - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Sophie was appointed before Edward or Andrew. No to Camilla on the order list.

NGalitzine 09-26-2011 12:56 PM

Both Andrew and Edward had previously been CVO and KCVO and KG before Sophie received received her GCVO. The brothers were promoted to GCVO after Sophie.

Diarist 09-26-2011 04:48 PM

Please can I try to help with a little background information?

Lumutqueen is quite right about the Royal Family Order and the Royal Victorian Order being TWO completely separate classes of Order.

Could I also make a plea to regard with extreme caution anything that Wikipedia says about the British Royal Family - most of its entries are riddled with mistakes!!

To recap: The Royal Victorian Order is bestowed by the Queen on people who have served her or the monarchy in some personal way. The RVO was founded by Queen Victoria as a way of rewarding personal service to her, and within her gift rather than by ministerial recommendation. This remains the position today - the RVO is within the Queen's gift alone.

Recipients can include members of the Royal Family, members of the Royal Household, British Ambassadors who have worked on a State visit made by the Queen to a particular country, members of foreign Royal Families etc. Personal service to the monarch is widely defined, as it includes service to other members of the British Royal Family - for example, the staff of Prince Charles, Princess Anne, Prince Philip etc etc have all been honoured. There are various different classes of the order: in ascending order these are - Member, Lieutenant, Commander, Dame/ Knight Commander and, Knight/Dame Grand Cross. It is common for a person to be honoured when they leave or retire from royal service - for example, when a private secretary to Prince Charles leaves after the end of his or her 'term of duty', they will probably be honoured with some class of RVO award.

The Royal Family Order causes extreme difficulty as so few people understand it, which is probably because it is not announced publically [unlike the Royal Victorian Order, recipients of which are announced in either the Birthday or New Year's Honours Lists]. The Royal Family Order is awarded by the queen to Female Royal Family Members ONLY. It consists of a jewelled portrait of the Sovereign supsended on a coloured ribbon. Traditionally, this was made by Garrard, then Crown Jeweller. Different monarchs have different coloured ribbons - the present Queen issues a Royal Family Order with a Chartreuse Yellow ribbon, the order of George V was white and that of George VI was pink. The Royal Family Order is worn on formal occasions ['white tie'] only. More than one Royal Family Order can be worn - IIRC, the Queen wears the orders of her Grandfather and her Father, the Queen Mother wore the Orders of her husband and her daughter!

The reason why there is so much mystique with regard to the Royal Family Order is because recipients are never announced. You only know that a female member of the Royal Family has been so honoured when you notice on a formal occasion that the Royal Family Order is being worn!!!

Current recipients of the Royal Family Order [whatever Wikipedia might say!!!] are Princess Alexandra, the Duchess of Kent, the Princess Royal, the Duchess of Gloucester, the Countess of Wessex, The Duchess of Cornwall.

Diana received the Royal Family Order. Fergie never received the Royal Family Order. You do NOT receive the Royal Family Order automatically on marriage into the Royal Family - it seems [after all, the criteria the Queen uses are NEVER announced] that you must do a bit of Royal work first and also not 'blot your copy book' or redeem yourself in some way if you have previously blotted your copy book.!

Princess Michael has never received the Royal Family Order, and this fact is sometimes cited by people as being 'proof that the Queen dislikes Princess Michael'. There is of course no way of knowing whether this is true or not!! Incidentally, Princess Michael is regarded as a member of the BRF, and indeed has occasionally carried out official Royal Engagements, including [with Prince Michael] representing the Queen abroad, so perhaps it is a little surprising that she has not been made a member of the Royal Family Order. The fact that Fergie was never a recipient of the Royal Family Order does lead me to suspect that perhaps the queen had reasons to doubt Sarah's suitability as a member of the BRF quite early on. This is speculation on my part, however.

Regardless of what some sources may say, Zara Phillips has NOT received the Royal Family Order and the Duchess of Grafton has NOT received the Royal Family Order [the latter not being a member of the BRF].

I would speculate that Catherine has to do a bit more 'royal work' before she receives the Royal Family Order - she is opting to be a wife to her husband at the moment, rather than undertake a full royal role, and there is nothing wrong with that. Just one thought occurs to me - as it will be diamond jubilee year next year, with a number of formal state occasions at which White Tie will be worn, the Queen might feel that Catherine should be so honoured anyway, otherwise she will be the only 'high ranking' female royal who has not recieved the Royal Family Order.


FOOTNOTE about Princess Michael: her lady in waiting [Lady Kitchener-Fellowes] has received an award of the Royal Victorian Order [ I think it was LVO, but I must check this.] This means that Princess Michael appears to be the only member of the BRF who has never been honoured - either with an award of the Royal Victorian Order or with membership of the Royal Family Order.


Hope this helps,

Alex

Molly2101 09-26-2011 07:05 PM

Thank you Alex for adding more insight to the orders. They are something that I am not very hot on. I never knew Sarah had never received it, but the reason I was thinking Catherine would receive it more quickly than perhaps Sophie did was because Catherine is married to a future King. But now having read your information Alex, I can see that the Queen is very selective over who she gives honours too, and so she should be!

Baroness of Books 09-26-2011 07:55 PM

Believe me, dear Diarist, Wikipedia is my last go-to place for any source of information on the Royal Family where I know I can get correct information here.:smile: I had originally brought it up because the Kate discrepancy about the Royal Family Order in Wiki was flagged by a member in another thread which we thought was odd because Kate just married into the royal family and hadn't really "earned her stripes" yet. Princess Michael was also mentioned in that list, which I thought was incorrect and was looking for confirmation here. I had always understood that the RFO had to be earned after several years of putting in one's royal dues and that it wasn't a perquisite upon marriage. The Queen was obviously very perspicacious when it came to not giving Sarah the RFO and probably has her reasons for not granting Princess Michael this as well. Perhaps in time she will. And, hopefully, we will see Kate with the RFO next year if indeed there will be formal occasions for the Queen's Jubilee.

Thank you - as always, your posts are informative and insightful.

MRSJ 09-26-2011 10:07 PM

http://orderofsplendor.blogspot.com/...rders.html?m=1

This website does a good job of explaining....


http://orderofsplendor.blogspot.com/...stuff.html?m=1

http://orderofsplendor.blogspot.com/...ff_26.html?m=1

Iluvbertie 09-27-2011 03:43 AM

I actually hope that the Queen doesn't give it to Kate too soon. I do think that she has to do more than marry the 2nd in line to the throne and appear at a few formal dinners/function in order to earn it.

Maybe in time for the 65th Jubilee in 2017.

Diarist 09-27-2011 05:25 AM

:previous:
I agree with much of what you say Iluvbertie. The principle that one has to actually earn the Order seems a sound one. The fact that Catherine is not working as a 'fully-performing royal' - for reasons that I fully accept, namely that she wants to be as 'normal a wife' and therefore keep out of the public spotlight - does, I think make it slightly harder for her to receive the reward of the Order from the Queen. It's just that - to me - the Diamond Jubilee does pose a slight difficulty, with all other females of the BRF [save for Princess Michael] appearing with the Order at the formal state dinners which I am sure we will be seeing. Of course, Catherine might elect NOT to attend many of the formal Jubilee celebrations, consistent with the couple's desire not to be full-time working royals.

There's another reason I can think of as well, which I hardly dare not give, but I will. Catherine seems absolutely perfect for William and the couple seem very much in love..but there again, bearing in mind the matrimonial strife that seems to have befallen members of the Royal Family in the last 30 years or so, I speculate that the Queen might and, please note, I did say 'might' want to wait for a couple of years before investing Catherine with Her Order, 'just to make sure'. I suppose we mustn't forget that both Diana and Sarah were seen as 'just perfect' as Royal brides when they married, and look what happened........

So far as the Dowager Duchess of Grafton is concerned, she holds the highest rank of the Royal Victorian Order: the GCVO [Dame Grand Cross], which she was awarded in 1980. She 'worked her way' through the ranks of the Order, first being made a CVO [Commander of the Royal Victorian Order] in 1965 and then being made a DCVO [Dame Commander] in 1970.

I can only assume that people are confusing the GCVO that she received with receipt of the Queen's family Order [which she has not of course received] because many of the senior ladies of the Royal Family do receive the GCVO as well.

Just a further piece of information for any intending future Royal Brides who might be reading this (!): if you are so honoured by the Queen with her family Order, you need to make sure that your evening dress is appropriately reinforced - the Order is VERY heavy apparently, and would not 'sit' properly on an 'unreinforced' evening dress!

Alex

Baroness of Books 09-27-2011 09:22 AM

:previous: Thanks about the clarification with the Duchess of Grafton's GCVO, Alex, and I'll inform my co-worker about the dress reinforcement since she's highly determined to marry Prince Harry!:rofl:

And, true, Kate should earn the Royal Family Order; after all the whole basis is that you have to work for it before you become a recipient. Well, we'll just have to see what happens if Kate shows up at any of the formal functions for the Jubilee; the Queen may have to give some thought to this situation.

NGalitzine 09-27-2011 10:52 AM

I think they may be confusing the Royal Family Order with the badge the Duchess of Grafton wears as a Lady In Waiting/Mistress of Robes to The Queen.

Baroness of Books 09-27-2011 11:01 AM

FYI - As a result of this erudite thread, Wikipedia updated its Royal Family Order list and has removed Princess Michael and the Duchess of Grafton. ;)

Diarist 09-28-2011 04:21 AM

You may be right, NGalitzine, but the Queen's ladies-in-waiting generally wear [from my personal observation] a brooch with 'E' [for Elizabeth] picked out in diamonds, which is somewhat diffent from an Order made of an ivory minature portrait surrounded in diamonds!

Thanks again for the thought,
Alex

Molly2101 09-28-2011 06:24 AM

Wow, that's an interesting fact. I think i'd prefer the brooch than the sash, hah!

I am glad Wikipedia updated their page, however anyone in the world can edit a Wikipedia page can they not? So someone may have read this and then edited it It also now says Zara Philips has the Royal Family Order...is this true? I do feel a bit bad that Princess Michael has not received anything, but I suppose it is HM's choice. Must be pretty tough though to see the other woman who married into the family receive orders and such. It would make you think she would want to work for her title, ensure she gains an order.

I understand that there are certain occasions when orders are worn. For example, at the banquet in May for the Obama's, did the women wear their Royal Family Order or the Royal Victorian Order? Or have I got that confused and they wear both? Alex, I imagine you can assist me! Also,

Thain 09-28-2011 07:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Molly2101 (Post 1320792)
I am glad Wikipedia updated their page, however anyone in the world can edit a Wikipedia page can they not? So someone may have read this and then edited it It also now says Zara Philips has the Royal Family Order...is this true?

Yes, anyone can edit Wikipedia. I've fixed the entries - didn't notice Zara since she was listed in a different article on the Royal Family Order in general. Whoever added the wrong information had no previous contributions and no user account, so you can see how easy it is for errors to occur.

If you see other mistakes feel free to fix them - it's quite simple actually! :flowers:

Iluvbertie 09-28-2011 07:50 AM

However sometimes the editors refuse to allow your corrections, even when you can show them that you are right - because you can't quote a published work - e.g. you can point to the relevant Act of Parliament and show descent to show that the Act doesn't apply however because you can't quote a published work it is classed as 'original' research and therefore not permitted - I know I have had a running battle to get a correction accepted and have simply given up.

Zonk 09-28-2011 07:55 AM

The Queen Mother, I believe wore the orders of both her husband and daughter as well as her ftaher in law, George V..

Baroness of Books 09-28-2011 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iluvbertie (Post 1320823)
However sometimes the editors refuse to allow your corrections, even when you can show them that you are right - because you can't quote a published work - e.g. you can point to the relevant Act of Parliament and show descent to show that the Act doesn't apply however because you can't quote a published work it is classed as 'original' research and therefore not permitted - I know I have had a running battle to get a correction accepted and have simply given up.

That's true that Wikipedia doesn't always allow corrections. I remember a controversy regarding Princess Mabel of the Netherlands attempting to revise an entry in Wiki regarding an investigation in her background. I think Wiki refused the correction. I'm fuzzy on the details, but remember reading about it.

Diarist 09-28-2011 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zonk (Post 1320825)
The Queen Mother, I believe wore the orders of both her husband and daughter as well as her ftaher in law, George V..


You may well be right Zonk, altough from memory, I only ever saw the Queen Mother wearing two family orders: those of her husband and her daughter. I can never remember seeing her wear three. Perhaps someone with a good photograph could confirm this? [The family Order of George V had a white ribbon, that of George VI had a rose pink ribbon, so it should be quite easy to spot what the Queen Mother is wearing even if the portraits are too small to differentiate.

Zonk 09-28-2011 03:38 PM

Here is a pic of the Queen with George VI and I believe George V

Image Detail for - http://nehucari.vacau.com/gallery/queen_elizabeth_ii.jpg

Searching for the Queen Mother

Diarist 10-01-2011 03:20 PM

No problem with the Queen Zonk but I look forward to seeing the Queen Mother with 3 orders - I thought that she only received Family Orders from George VI and The Queen...

wbenson 10-01-2011 05:42 PM

I can only find the Queen Mother wearing the George V and George VI orders (sometime between 1936 and 1952) or the George VI and Elizabeth II orders (sometime after 1952). ETA: I also found one probably from before 1936, where she was appears to be wearing the George V order. So it looks like she had it, but just didn't wear it much after 1952.

I did find a picture of Princess Margaret wearing all three, however.

RoyalistRiley 10-28-2011 07:18 AM

Just a qucik question - while recently watching TV coverage of the reception given to HM the Queen at Parliament House in Canberra, I noticed that the 2 ladies-in-waiting were wearing pink ribbons with some sort of insignia. I am afraid the best picture I can find is this one - http://www.bta.bg/en/gallery/showImage/?image=107887 - where they can be seen at some distance at the top of the image. Is this some kind of Royal Family Order or another decoration?

Royal_Eagle 10-28-2011 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diarist (Post 1320527)
...The principle that one has to actually earn the Order seems a sound one...

Thank you for the fascinating description of how things work over there--it clarified quite a few things. I am pretty sure that Catharine would be an outstanding member of the BRF and she will eventually get it, but there is no need to rush the Family Order membership awarding. So on one hand, I don't think the Queen would give Catharine membership in her Order within a year, but on the other hand it wouldn't surprise me too much if she did anyway.

NGalitzine 10-28-2011 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoyalistRiley (Post 1331241)
Just a qucik question - while recently watching TV coverage of the reception given to HM the Queen at Parliament House in Canberra, I noticed that the 2 ladies-in-waiting were wearing pink ribbons with some sort of insignia. I am afraid the best picture I can find is this one - http://www.bta.bg/en/gallery/showImage/?image=107887 - where they can be seen at some distance at the top of the image. Is this some kind of Royal Family Order or another decoration?

Her ladies in waiting wear a diamond E badge.

NGalitzine 03-13-2012 07:21 PM

Actually I don't think Sarah Ferguson received any foreign orders and certainly no British honours. I know the Duke of York has the Order of St Olav, but do you have a picture of Sarah wearing it?

Artemisia 03-13-2012 07:43 PM

Sarah never received the order of St. Olav. Only the following British Royals currently hold the order:
- Queen Elizabeth (since 1955)
- Prince Philip, the Duke of Edinburgh (since 1952)
- Prince Charles, the Prince of Wales (since 1978)
- Prince Andrew, the Duke of York (since 1988)
- Prince Edward, the Earl of Wessex (since 1988)
- Prince Richard, Duke of Gloucester (since 1973)

lightningbearer 03-29-2012 02:58 PM

With the diamond jubilee here do we think that the Queen will give some new orders out to the royal females to wear at the major events that'll happen. Perhaps Catherine will get the family order (big question mark there though) and maybe Camilla may get something (Sophie got the order of st. john after a couple of years of full time royal duties), I'd love to see that as well as the other minor royals getting some recognition, any thoughts?

cepe 03-29-2012 06:36 PM

I know that George V had a white ribbon, and George V1 had rose pink. The Queen's own is "chartreuse"

In some of the pictures in this thread the order ribbon is blue - which order is that?

thank you

wbenson 03-30-2012 03:43 AM

Which pictures specifically are you looking at? The George V ribbon is a very pale blue that looks white in some pictures; Princess Margaret in the photograph I posted in post 66 is wearing the Order of the Crown of India along with her three family orders.

Grandduchess24 03-31-2012 10:01 PM

So for royal orders it's the bow with the order for females and a sort of award metal for males?

wbenson 03-31-2012 11:01 PM

It depends on the order. The royal family orders can only be received by women, and they're always worn attached to a bow. (The Order of the Crown of India could also only be worn by women, although nobody has been appointed to it since 1947. The insignia was almost always worn on a bow, but the Queen wore hers like a medal when she wore a uniform at Trooping the Colour.)

For other orders, the upper grade usually has a sash worn by both sexes. The insignia of the lower grades are worn either on the neck or like a medal on the upper-left chest, and women generally have the option of putting them on a bow instead. (The Royal Victorian Chain works the same way. Princess Margaret, in the picture that I linked to, is wearing the chain around her neck. She also had the option of wearing parts of the chain attached to a bow. I think that would have overloaded her dress, though.)

Warren 04-01-2012 07:23 AM

The Diamond Jubilee Medal
 
2 Attachment(s)
The UK Diamond Jubilee Medal doesn't appear in this thread so for the record here it is, plus the bar...
.

Madame Royale 04-01-2012 08:52 AM

:previous: They appear to have used the same profile portait of the Queen as is used on Australian and British coinage which boasts the best likeness in both age and appearance.

NGalitzine 04-23-2012 08:34 PM

2 Attachment(s)
The Governor General of Canada > Diamond Jubilee Medal

This is the Canadian Diamond Jubilee Medal.
60,000 will be awarded.
.

Madame Royale 04-24-2012 03:18 AM

Quite a handsome medal.

Artemisia 05-06-2012 02:10 PM

Queen's advisers tell her to drop 'empire' from honours as it's 'inappropriate' in post-imperial Britain
Quote:

The word 'empire' should be removed from honours such as the MBE and OBE because it is 'inappropriate', the Queen's advisers have recommended. The Queen's lords lieutenant, who advise the monarch on who should receive honours, have called for an end to its use because of its links to British colonial history and class.
I suppose it's up to British members to give opinion on this issue, but I believe this is a truly hideous idea. Hopefully, Her Majesty feels the same way. :nonono:
Sometimes I feel like Britain is almost deliberately trying to destroy the great legacy it has accumulated over the centuries.

EIIR 05-06-2012 03:35 PM

Unfortunately, Artemisia, there is a large chunk of people in this country (mainly on the left) who believe that our historic legacy is something we must be forever ashamed of. As far as they're concerned there is nothing to be proud of.

This is just silly political correctness. Everyone knows we don't have an Empire anymore; everyone knows the very chequered history of our Empire. But, this is just not necessary. It's fiddling with something that works well. People refuse MBEs and Knighthoods for lots of different reasons. But many, many more people are proud to receive them and I would simply leave things as they are. When something's not broken, there's no point in expending lots of time and energy fixing it.

Artemisia 05-06-2012 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EIIR (Post 1408337)
This is just silly political correctness. Everyone knows we don't have an Empire anymore; everyone knows the very chequered history of our Empire. But, this is just not necessary. It's fiddling with something that works well. People refuse MBEs and Knighthoods for lots of different reasons. But many, many more people are proud to receive them and I would simply leave things as they are. When something's not broken, there's no point in expending lots of time and energy fixing it.

Like all Empires, the British one had its high and low points, granted. But aren't you (British people, or rather, politicians) tired of constantly apologising? After all the British Empire WAS a great one.
- It was the single largest Empire in the history of humanity.
- It's influence on the development of the mankind is virtually unparalleled (with the possible exceptions of the Greek and Roman Empires).
- It was one of the first countries to abolish slavery on its territories.
- It basically gave the world the law system: Magna Carta, Bill of Rights, and Habeas Corpus Act are quite possibly some of the most important documents in history.
- The very basis of the modern world was laid during the times of the Empire.
- Not to mention the greatest legacy of them all - the language. The very fact that we all speak English in this forum speaks volumes.

Yes, a lot of bad things happened and they should be remembered. But forgetting all the good, great things the Empire achieved? That's not only sad: that's almost a crime. And the impression I often get is that it's a taboo to talk about the Empire in positive light; just constantly apologise for the mistakes, and sometimes - even achievements.

My apologies for this rant; I didn't intend to sound quite so passionate.

EIIR 05-06-2012 04:25 PM

I agree with everything you say, Artemisia. (You may have read it, but Niall Ferguson's book Empire: How Britain Made the Modern World, is a really balanced and interesting take on the British Empire and I strongly recommend it).

For those on the left of the political spectrum Britain can never make amends for its mistakes. If we started a policy of national self-flagellation over the sins of our ancestors it still wouldn't be enough for these people. They actually hate Britain, even though they're British themselves.

The archetypal example of this is one Andrew Hawkins. One of his ancestors was a slave trader, so Mr Hawkins decided that that meant he had to kneel in chains in front of a crowd of Africans while telling them all how sorry he is (and wearing a tshirt that said 'I'm so sorry'). Even though the actions of his ancestor were not his and none of the people concerned are alive today, he felt the need to prostrate himself because of it. He's the kind of chap who would get very wound up over use of the word 'Empire'.

Kneeling in chains, the dramatic apology from slave trader descendant | Mail Online

On a different note, I don't think most people who get an MBE/OBE/CBE even know what those letters stand for.

Lumutqueen 05-06-2012 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EIIR (Post 1408373)
On a different note, I don't think most people who get an MBE/OBE/CBE even know what those letters stand for.

I disagree, the majority of people who receive those awards are everyday people who have done extraordinary things. They are proud to receive the award and certainly know what it means. Even the celebrities who have received one, know what it means. The award is respected by the people who receive it, just not by the government who want to make everything equal in the world so they don't offend people.

EIIR 05-06-2012 04:34 PM

What I mean is, I don't think there's a massive degree of public awareness that the 'E' in MBE stands for Empire.

Living in Northern Ireland, it has always amazed me just how comfortable those in the Nationalist/Republican community here are to accept these decorations. Obviously some wouldn't accept them for political reasons, but if people from that community can happily accept an MBE, anyone can.

Lumutqueen 05-06-2012 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EIIR (Post 1408384)
What I mean is, I don't think there's a massive degree of public awareness that the 'E' in MBE stands for Empire.

Living in Northern Ireland, it has always amazed me just how comfortable those in the Nationalist/Republican community here are to accept these decorations. Obviously some wouldn't accept them for political reasons, but if people from that community can happily accept an MBE, anyone can.

Well, what else could it stand for?
The people who receive the award understand the meaning, they don't complain, that's the important part.

EIIR 05-06-2012 04:54 PM

It could stand for Elizabeth, or excellence or effort. I don't think many people dwell on it much.

To me it's another example of people going out of their way to be offended.

Warren 05-06-2012 05:51 PM

:previous:
Feigning offence is just another tactic to claim the moral high ground. It's usually raised by those not directly affected or offended themselves but by those claiming offence or "possible offence" for an unrelated third party.

AdmirerUS 10-12-2012 03:31 PM

This came up in another forum and it's probably better placed here.
Re: the Royal Family Order of the UK. It began in the early 1800's. For most monarchs it has been awarded to a handful to two dozen close female relations. We don't know for sure - because it is a private award and many people who might have received it may not have had occasion to wear it.

Is it likely Charles will continue the tradition when he ascends to to the crown? If so - when might he initiate the practice - in the first year of reign, later? I know it is privately given, but what seems to be the practice and will it continue. Will it continue as a painted piece or revert to the cast pieces of previous reigns? (that last is always easier to match with a ball gown of striking color, I think).

I ask because Charles is generally thought to favor a modestly sized working Royal Family. His interests don't run to the monarchy for monarchy's sake side of things. Generally, the family has progressed to one that is more focused on the good of the realm and less on the trappings of the reign.

Certainly, the "gift to give the female side of the family something to wear on their gown" becomes less important as most female members of the family head regiments, have the VO, Garter, Thistle, Bath and/or BE for recognition of their contributions. There is less need to come up with something for an idle female cousin to wear with a tiara. The cousin is probably out winning Olympic Medals :lol:.

If anyone knows the history of the Family order in previous reigns, I'd be interested to know when in the reign it begins to show up?

I also have wondered if anyone knows if a "batch" of these painted pieces are created at one time and then given out till a new batch is needed? If so, have there been noted differences in the copies?

I also have wondered if these family orders revert to the crown on death of the recipient. I have always assumed they would remain cherished family pieces, but one never knows.

Thanks for your opinions or information, in advance.

Skippyboo 10-27-2012 11:16 AM

William got his garter at the time he did so he would be the 1000th Knight. I think the Thistle was a 30th birthday present. Maybe for this Christmas, the Queen will give Kate her family order. I think that would be a nice touch to show Kate has the backing of the Queen. I think Diana got her relativity early in her marriage, while Fergie never did and Sophie had to wait a while. However, the Queen isn't getting any younger and I think it would be cool for Kate to wear the family orders of Elizabeth, Charles & William, when she is consort. The Queen Mum wore George V, VI, and the Queen. The Queen wear her fathers and grandfathers.

Artemisia 10-27-2012 11:25 AM

:previous:

Diana did receive Royal Family Order of Queen Elizabeth II shortly after her marriage, in 1981. But then, she was The Princess of Wales and (if I'm not mistaken) was already pregnant with Prince William.

Camilla - the current Princess of Wales - received hers two years after her marriage. Sophie had to wait nearly five years.

While I have no doubts Kate will eventually be granted the Royal Family Order of Queen Elizabeth, I don't think it will happen for at least another year.

Duke-of-Earl 10-27-2012 11:40 AM

I'm willing to bet Catherine has the Family Order already. Just no opportunity to wear it.

Queen Camilla 10-27-2012 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duke-of-Earl (Post 1477338)
My personal opinion on this is, if their first born child is a girl, Letters Patent will be issued and make her a royal highness and princess, otherwise I think HM will follow the 1917 Letters Patent.
If HM doesn't make a first born girl a princess, even without equal primogeniture, the PC brigade will be out in force ranting and raving.


They can rant & rave all they want but I don't think the Queen will give in. After all, her own mother called her stubborn.

I don't think Kate will receive the family order for some years.

Camilla & Diana received it early in their marriage because they were married to the POW. Kate will have to wait at least as long as Sophie.

Dman 10-27-2012 11:37 PM

I don't think Catherine will have to wait very long for The Queen to give her the Royal Family Order. I think it would be nice for catherine have The Queen's Order, then she will recieve Charles's Order and then William's.

I wonder why The Queen don't wear her Orders often? She have the Royal Family Orders of George V, George VI and her own.

HRHHermione 10-27-2012 11:59 PM

I don't believe that a monarch wears their own family order- only those of their predecessors. It's something she awards to others, not something she has herself.

Dman 11-03-2012 07:32 PM

HRH The Prince of Wales invested with the insignia of a Grand Companion of the Order of Logohu - an honour which carries the title of chief - by Governor General Sir Michael Ogio, Papua New Guinea.

HRH The Duchess of Cornwall was presented the insignia of a Grand Companion of the Order of the Star of Melanesia by Governor General Sir Michael Ogio, Papua New Guinea.



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:12 PM.

Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2019
Jelsoft Enterprises