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Fashionista100 12-13-2006 10:23 PM

Dutch Line of Succession
 
What is the dutch line of succession. Can we get the top 25 or 30 in line. I know the crown prince and his children but what about further down? Can someone post a list? Maybe we could have the extensive line of succession for each royal house if possible? Just a thought. Can anyone help?

Oppie 12-13-2006 11:04 PM

  1. HRH Crown Prince Willem-Alexander, Prince of Orange, Prince of the Netherlands, Prince of Orange-Nassau, Jonkheer van Amsberg (first child of Queen Beatrix)
  2. HRH Princess Catharina-Amalia of the Netherlands, Princess of Orange-Nassau (first child of Prince Willem-Alexander)
  3. HRH Princess Alexia of the Netherlands, Princess of Orange-Nassau (second child of Prince Willem-Alexander)
  4. HRH the unborn third child of the Prince and Princess of Orange
  5. HRH Prince Constantijn of the Netherlands, Prince of Orange-Nassau, Jonkheer van Amsberg (third child of Queen Beatrix)
  6. HE Countess Eloise of Orange-Nassau, Jonkvrouw van Amsberg (daughter of Prince Constantijn)
  7. HE Count Claus-Casimir of Orange-Nassau, Jonkheer van Amsberg (son of Prince Constantijn)
  8. HE Countess Leonore of Orange-Nassau, Jonkvrouw van Amsberg (daughter of Prince Constantijn)
  9. HRH Princess Margriet of the Netherlands, Princess of Orange-Nassau, Princess of Lippe-Biesterfeld (daughter of Queen Juliana)
  10. HH Prince Maurits of Orange-Nassau, van Vollenhoven (son of Princess Margriet)
  11. HH Prince Bernhard of Orange-Nassau, van Vollenhoven (son of Princess Margriet)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_of...e_Dutch_Throne

Prince Bernhard is the last one on the list, if you click on the link it discusses why certain people are left out and what happens with Prince Willem Alexander becomes King.

Zonk 12-13-2006 11:12 PM

Thanks for the information Oppie...its very interesting how the Dutch succession differs from the British. Not that the British is the best....but they have included almost all of Queen Victoria descendants.

I wonder what would happen, if God forbid, anything happened to the first 11 people...woudl they then automatically go to the children of Prince Maurits?

Oppie 12-13-2006 11:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zonk
but they have included almost all of Queen Victoria descendants.

I wonder what would happen, if God forbid, anything happened to the first 11 people...woudl they then automatically go to the children of Prince Maurits?

It would be more than just Queen Victoria line, it is anyone that is a descendent of Electress Sophia (that is either none Catholic or hasn't married a Catholic, I think it is at least over 1000)

If something happens and Prince Maurits becomes King his children would automatically be added as would Prince Bernhard. If something happened to both of them along with everyone else, I don't know what would happen, I guess it would be up to the Dutch Parliament either Maurits children or re-adding Margarit two younger sons.

morhange 12-14-2006 04:24 AM

And once Willem-Alexander becomes king, Maurits and Bernhard won't be in line anymore.

Marengo 12-14-2006 05:56 AM

I believe the successionline was changed when Wilhelmina had difficulties to get pregnant. If Juliana wouldn't have been born a Prince zu Reuss or a Saxe-Weimar would have inherited the throne, which was not something that the Dutch looked upon with favour. So to prevent such a thing from happening the people in line for the throne have to be no more then 3 bloodlines removed from the monarch.

When Willem-Alexander succeeds to the throne Maurits and Bernhard will be 4 bloodlines away, so they will automatically be no longer in line of the throne.

If for some reason all the children and grandchildren of Beatrix will be excluded from the list of succession, then Maurits children, niece and nephew will automatically become in the list, the moment he succeeds.

If the entire list of people in line of succession would cease to excist for some reason then parlament can select a new person to become the dutch monarch.

Henri M. 12-14-2006 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fashionista100
What is the dutch line of succession. Can we get the top 25 or 30 in line. I know the crown prince and his children but what about further down? Can someone post a list? Maybe we could have the extensive line of succession for each royal house if possible? Just a thought. Can anyone help?

Unlike the British situation, the Dutch line of succession is limited to those who are related to the Sovereign, but no furtherer than three degrees of consanguity.

Imagine that Willem-Alexander is King now, then 8 people would be in the line of succession:

Related to His Majesty King Willem IV Alexander in 1 degree of consanguity:
1 - Her Royal Highness The Princess of Orange (Catharina-Amalia) child of The King
2 - Her Royal Highness Princess Alexia of the Netherlands, Princess of Orange-Nassau child of The King
3 - His (Her) Royal Highness the unborn Prince (Princess) of the Netherlands, Prince (Princess) of Orange-Nassau child of The King

Related to His Majesty King Willem IV Alexander in 2 degrees of consanguity:
4 - His Royal Highness Prince Constantijn of the Netherlands, Prince of Orange-Nassau, Jonkheer van Amsberg brother to The King

Related to His Majesty King Willem IV Alexander in 3 degrees of consanguity:
5 - the highborn lady Elo´se Countess of Orange-Nassau, Jonkvrouwe van Amsberg niece to The King
6 - the highborn lord Claus-Casimir Count of Orange-Nassau, Jonkheer van Amsberg nephew to The King
7 - the highborn lady Leonore Countess of Orange-Nassau, Jonkvrouwe van Amsberg niece to The King
8 - Her Royal Highness Princess Margriet of the Netherlands, Princess of Orange-Nassau, Princess of Lippe-Biesterfeld aunt to The King

:flowers:

Fashionista100 12-14-2006 11:24 AM

Thanks for the link. They also list other houses lines of sucession and nonreigning houses too if anyone is interested. It is interesting how it works.

Tatiana Maria 01-26-2020 12:23 PM

I have two questions regarding the succession to the Crown:

1. Were the new rules determining the effect of gender on the succession to the Crown in 1963 and 1983 wanted mostly by the Royal Family or by the Government? If the reforms were mostly wanted by the Government, were the Royal Family supportive of the changes?

2. Queen Emma was still of childbearing age at the time of King Willem III passing away. Was it merely assumed she was not pregnant, or did contingency planning take place for a posthumous son, who would have taken priority over Queen Wilhelmina and Grand Duke Adolph in the succession to the crowns of the Netherlands and Luxembourg?

An Ard Ri 01-26-2020 12:36 PM

There are currently 8 in the current line of succession,only 1 of whom is a Prince!

(1) HRH The Princess of Orange
(2) HRH Princess Alexia
(3) HRH Princess Ariane
(4) HRH Prince Constantijn
(5) Countess Eloise
(6) Count Claus-Casimir
(7) Countess Leonore
(8) HRH Princess Margriet

Duc_et_Pair 01-26-2020 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria (Post 2288424)
I have two questions regarding the succession to the Crown:

1. Were the new rules determining the effect of gender on the succession to the Crown in 1963 and 1983 wanted mostly by the Royal Family or by the Government? If the reforms were mostly wanted by the Government, were the Royal Family supportive of the changes?

2. Queen Emma was still of childbearing age at the time of King Willem III passing away. Was it merely assumed she was not pregnant, or did contingency planning take place for a posthumous son, who would have taken priority over Queen Wilhelmina and Grand Duke Adolph in the succession to the crowns of the Netherlands and Luxembourg?

1.
We never know the initiator of legislation. The Government (= the King and the ministers) offers Bills to the States-General. But what exactly was the initiation or contribution of exact which member of Government is unknown because it is a college which speaks with one voice.

On February 4th 1980 (still under Queen Juliana) the Prime Minister, Mr Van Agt and the Minister of the Interior, Mr Wiegel offered a Bill to the States-General to change the Constitution on articles about the kingship:
- to end the preference of sons above daughters in the succession (approved)
- to raise the minimum age for the kingship from 18 to 21 years (rejected)
- to add the possibility to exclude successors in extreme circumstances, like a mental handicap, high treason, etc. (approved)
- there where with "The King" is factually meant: the King + the ministers, to use the word "The Government" (approved) *
And some more minor changes.

2.
King Willem III and the Government wanted Princess Wilhelmina to succeed in Luxembourg as well. Emma however (daughter of a Nassau princess herself) urged her husband to respect the Nassauischer Erbverein. It would made her mother's House a reigning House again. The old and tired King seemed convinced by his second spouse and made no effort to change the succession in Luxembourg...

* That is why King Willem-Alexander is no commander-in-chief as with the Constitution of 1983 the supreme command is no longer with The King but is with The Government (= The King + the ministers). Because active military can not be a part of Government, we do not see King Willem-Alexander with uniform during non-military affairs, like the Speexh from the Throne on Prinsjesdag. As Prince of Orange he always wore an uniform, but then he was no member of Government.

Mbruno 01-26-2020 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by An Ard Ri (Post 2288426)
There are currently 8 in the current line of succession,only 1 of whom is a Prince!

(1) HRH The Princess of Orange
(2) HRH Princess Alexia
(3) HRH Princess Ariane
(4) HRH Prince Constantijn
(5) Countess Eloise
(6) Count Claus-Casimir
(7) Countess Leonore
(8) HRH Princess Margriet


There are two reasons why the Dutch line of succession is so "short" :




  1. The Dutch constitution limits the line of succession to relatives of the current king who are not further removed from him than the third degree of consanguinity. That means, for example, that cousins of the king and their descendants (like the Gloucesters and Kents in the UK) or descendants of the king's nephews/nieces (like Princess Margaret's grandchildren in the UK) are not included in the line of succession.
  2. Notwithstanding (1), a few people who would normally be in the line of succession today based on proximity of blood are not, because either the affected person or his/her parent previously in the line of succession were excluded thereof for getting married without the consent of the Dutch parliament granted by statute. That includes Princess Irene (the present king's aunt) and two of the present king's nieces (Countess Luana and Countess Zaira). Under normal circumstances then, there would be now 11, rather than 8 people, in the Dutch line of succession.


In any case, at the time the Succession to the Crown Act 2013 was passed in the UK, one of the allegedly arguments to limit the new royal marriages consent rule to the first six persons in line only was that it was presumably unlikely that anyone lower than sixth in line would ever succeed to the Crown. That brings into question the contemporary need for unbounded lines of succession.



Here is how the 7 kingdoms of Europe compare in terms of number of people currently in the line of succession.


  • Belgium: 16
  • Denmark: 11
  • The Netherlands: 8
  • Norway: 7
  • Spain: 10
  • Sweden: 10
  • The UK: possibly over 1,000 (the exact number is not known as it is hard to tell who would qualify, but the descendants of George V's sons alone who qualify are already 59)

Tatiana Maria 01-26-2020 03:48 PM

Thank you very much for responding, Duc_et_Pair. I appreciate it. :flowers:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair (Post 2288441)
1.
We never know the initiator of legislation. The Government (= the King and the ministers) offers Bills to the States-General. But what exactly was the initiation or contribution of exact which member of Government is unknown because it is a college which speaks with one voice.

On February 4th 1980 (still under Queen Juliana) the Prime Minister, Mr Van Agt and the Minister of the Interior, Mr Wiegel offered a Bill to the States-General to change the Constitution on articles about the kingship:
- to end the preference of sons above daughters in the succession (approved)
- to raise the minimum age for the kingship from 18 to 21 years (rejected)
- to add the possibility to exclude successors in extreme circumstances, like a mental handicap, high treason, etc. (approved)
- there where with "The King" is factually meant: the King + the ministers, to use the word "The Government" (approved) *
And some more minor changes.

That is very true about the process of legislation, but all the same I am curious as to what went on behind closed doors, or in the minds of the Royal Family, in the 1960s and the 1980s. (For example, in Sweden, King Carl Gustaf and Queen Silvia made no secret of their feelings in regard to the change in the Swedish order of succession, and it was demonstrably clear that the change was the wish of the Swedish government, not of the King of Sweden.)


Quote:

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair (Post 2288441)
2.
King Willem III and the Government wanted Princess Wilhelmina to succeed in Luxembourg as well. Emma however (daughter of a Nassau princess herself) urged her husband to respect the Nassauischer Erbverein. It would made her mother's House a reigning House again. The old and tired King seemed convinced by his second spouse and made no effort to change the succession in Luxembourg...

But had Queen Emma been pregnant with a son, the unborn son would instantly have become the lawful King of the Netherlands and Grand Duke of Luxembourg once he was born, change or no change.

I am asking whether the governments or their advisers thought to (say) ask the widowed Dowager Queen whether she was pregnant. Would it not have looked foolish if Wilhelmina and Adolph had been proclaimed as Queen and Grand Duke respectively, only to be displaced by the birth of a posthumous son of King Willem III?

Mbruno 01-26-2020 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria (Post 2288463)
Thank you very much for responding, Duc_et_Pair. I appreciate it. :flowers:



That is very true about the process of legislation, but all the same I am curious as to what went on behind closed doors, or in the minds of the Royal Family, in the 1960s and the 1980s. (For example, in Sweden, King Carl Gustaf and Queen Silvia made no secret of their feelings in regard to the change in the Swedish order of succession, and it was demonstrably clear that the change was the wish of the Swedish government, not of the King of Sweden.)


Sweden's situation, I believe, was different because Prince Carl Philip, who had been born and baptized as Crown Prince, would be effectively demoted and that is what King Carl XVI Gustaf objected to.



In the Netherlands, the change in the rule of primogeniture didn't affect anyone in the line of succession at the time, so I suppose it must have been rather uncontroversial. The country had had three consecutive reigning queens (or four, if you also count Queen Emma during the regency), so I also suppose the public was pretty much used to female monarchs and wouldn't see too much value in male preference primogeniture. Again, Sweden was in a very different position as it had not had a ruling queen since 1720.

Tatiana Maria 01-26-2020 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mbruno (Post 2288469)
Sweden's situation, I believe, was different because Prince Carl Philip, who had been born and baptized as Crown Prince, would be effectively demoted and that is what King Carl XVI Gustaf objected to.



In the Netherlands, the change in the rule of primogeniture didn't affect anyone in the line of succession at the time, so I suppose it must have been rather uncontroversial.

At least the change in 1963 had the potential to affect persons already in the line of succession - if Princess Beatrix had predeceased her mother Queen Juliana. Rather than Princess Margriet becoming the new heiress of the throne, according to the rule of semi-Salic primogeniture before 1963, the crown would have passed directly from Queen Juliana to Prince Willem-Alexander if Beatrix had predeceased her mother after 1963.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Mbruno (Post 2288469)
The country had had three consecutive reigning queens (or four, if you also count Queen Emma during the regency), so I also suppose the public was pretty much used to female monarchs and wouldn't see too much value in male preference primogeniture. Again, Sweden was in a very different position as it had not had a ruling queen since 1720.

That's a good point. One might wonder then why, after two reigning queens and a regent, the change to the rules of succession in 1963 nonetheless maintained male preference in the same degree of descent.

Mbruno 01-26-2020 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria (Post 2288474)
At least the change in 1963 had the potential to affect persons already in the line of succession - if Princess Beatrix had predeceased her mother Queen Juliana. Rather than Princess Margriet becoming the new heiress of the throne, according to the rule of semi-Salic primogeniture before 1963, the crown would have passed directly from Queen Juliana to Prince Willem-Alexander if Beatrix had predeceased her mother after 1963..




I was referring to the changes in 1983.


Sorry, I am not familiar with the changes in 1963. I only knew about the reforms of 1887 and 1983 (which introduced equal primogeniture).

Lee-Z 01-26-2020 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria (Post 2288463)
But had Queen Emma been pregnant with a son, the unborn son would instantly have become the lawful King of the Netherlands and Grand Duke of Luxembourg once he was born, change or no change.

I am asking whether the governments or their advisers thought to (say) ask the widowed Dowager Queen whether she was pregnant. Would it not have looked foolish if Wilhelmina and Adolph had been proclaimed as Queen and Grand Duke respectively, only to be displaced by the birth of a posthumous son of King Willem III?

I don't know for sure, but it seems K.Willem III's health had been in decline for a while before he died on 23 nov 1890. In feb 1889 he already wasn't able anymore to sign official documents, recovered slightly but in aug of that year suffered a stroke and became erratic.

Imo the likelihood that Q.Emma had been "with child" when he eventually died, was probably quite slim (to a point of non-existing), so it might have been not an option that was really considered

CyrilVladisla 01-26-2020 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henri M. (Post 548009)
Unlike the British situation, the Dutch line of succession is limited to those who are related to the Sovereign, but no furtherer than three degrees of consanguity.

Imagine that Willem-Alexander is King now, then 8 people would be in the line of succession:

Related to His Majesty King Willem IV Alexander in 1 degree of consanguity:
1 - Her Royal Highness The Princess of Orange (Catharina-Amalia) child of The King
2 - Her Royal Highness Princess Alexia of the Netherlands, Princess of Orange-Nassau child of The King
3 - His (Her) Royal Highness the unborn Prince (Princess) of the Netherlands, Prince (Princess) of Orange-Nassau child of The King

Related to His Majesty King Willem IV Alexander in 2 degrees of consanguity:
4 - His Royal Highness Prince Constantijn of the Netherlands, Prince of Orange-Nassau, Jonkheer van Amsberg brother to The King

Related to His Majesty King Willem IV Alexander in 3 degrees of consanguity:
5 - the highborn lady Elo´se Countess of Orange-Nassau, Jonkvrouwe van Amsberg niece to The King
6 - the highborn lord Claus-Casimir Count of Orange-Nassau, Jonkheer van Amsberg nephew to The King
7 - the highborn lady Leonore Countess of Orange-Nassau, Jonkvrouwe van Amsberg niece to The King
8 - Her Royal Highness Princess Margriet of the Netherlands, Princess of Orange-Nassau, Princess of Lippe-Biesterfeld aunt to The King

:flowers:

In this post from 2006 it is interesting to see the King referred to as King Willem IV Alexander. However, he did not use this as his regnal name. He did not want to be Willem IV.

Duc_et_Pair 01-26-2020 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee-Z (Post 2288480)
I don't know for sure, but it seems K.Willem III's health had been in decline for a while before he died on 23 nov 1890. In feb 1889 he already wasn't able anymore to sign official documents, recovered slightly but in aug of that year suffered a stroke and became erratic.

Imo the likelihood that Q.Emma had been "with child" when he eventually died, was probably quite slim (to a point of non-existing), so it might have been not an option that was really considered

Yes, the King, who outlived his first spouse and all his three sons, had lethargic and depressed moods in his last years, with moments of bad temper ("Russian blood" with reference to his mother Anna Pavlovna) and most likely had no energy to fight with his wife and the Nassau relatives to ensure his daughter to become Queen of the Netherlands as well Grand-Duchess of Luxembourg. The likelihood of another child was minimal. There even were rumours Wilhelmina was fathered by a courtier.


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