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-   -   A marriage between Prince Hisahito and Princess Aiko? (http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f126/a-marriage-between-prince-hisahito-and-princess-aiko-11439.html)

Lox 11-22-2006 02:33 PM

A marriage between Prince Hisahito and Princess Aiko?
 
Is this something that might happen in the future?

Maybe this is a stupid thing even to consider, but I'm pretty sure that Hisahito and Aiko would have been forced to marry each other if the year was 1606, not 2006.

Princess Robijn 11-22-2006 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lox
Is this something that might happen in the future?

Maybe this is a stupid thing even to consider, but I'm pretty sure that Hisahito and Aiko would have been forced to marry each other if the year was 1606, not 2006.

I think, if it was 1606, this problem would not have exist, the Crown Prince would have taken another wife or take a concubine. Even if the Crown Prince didn't do eather one of the two, I don't think in 1606 Japan would have excepted an ruling Empress.. (even though Japan has known ruling Empresses, I believe 8 or something, please correct me if I'm wrong ;))

pianohabebi 11-22-2006 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Princess Robijn
I think, if it was 1606, this problem would not have exist, the Crown Prince would have taken another wife or take a concubine. Even if the Crown Prince didn't do eather one of the two, I don't think in 1606 Japan would have excepted an ruling Empress.. (even though Japan has known ruling Empresses, I believe 8 or something, please correct me if I'm wrong ;))

You're correct Princess Robijn. From what I have been told by my professor, Japan has had eight empresses since from around 660 BC.

magnik 11-22-2006 04:07 PM

Here you go. List of Emperors of Japan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Japanese_Emperors

BeatrixFan 11-22-2006 04:08 PM

I don't think it's impossible. Indeed, the IHA might see it as a solution to a problem. Little Aiko gets to be an Empress and Hisahito gets to be an Emperor.

magnik 11-22-2006 04:22 PM

What about the blood? I mean they are very close related.

LadyK 11-22-2006 04:28 PM

ewwww. Maybe it is immature to say that, but ewwww. They're cousins- it's just wrong.

Lady Bluffton 11-22-2006 06:18 PM

Not necessarily advocating it, but:

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/041001.html

Apparently cousin marriages don't create a recipe for disaster -- it's just if you keep doing it generation after generation...the gene pool gets really small that way!

Lox 11-22-2006 06:32 PM

Marriages between cousins is still legal in Japan, right? It's legal here in Sweden, anyway.

I think that a marriage between Aiko and Hisahito would be a nice solution to this problem, but ONLY if they really want it themselves. Forced marriages are no good at all.

magnik 11-23-2006 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lox
Marriages between cousins is still legal in Japan, right? It's legal here in Sweden, anyway.

I think that a marriage between Aiko and Hisahito would be a nice solution to this problem, but ONLY if they really want it themselves. Forced marriages are no good at all.

Yes, there're no good at all, but remember that IHA can do anything:mad:

tete 11-30-2006 11:58 AM

i guess it could happen but there is really nothing to accomplish if they did get married, there would have to be more change in the imperial succession laws instead of what might seem a "quick" fix. i dont think the idea should be seen as gross though, this stuff has happened in the past!

Jo of Palatine 11-30-2006 01:15 PM

Doesnt it matter that Aiko is older than her intended? It's not so long that marriages with an older woman were frowned upon in Europe. Hmmm..., maybe not if it was about a throne - Mary Tudor and Philip of Spain come to mind, with Mary a first cousin of Philip's father and some years his senior...

Vanesa 12-04-2006 12:02 AM

I, for one, should like this marriage. There is many, many years I don't see a fully royal marriage. I'm not saying is bad to a royal to marry a commoner. It brings fresh blood to families and all...but a royal marrying a royal is almost a forgotten thing. And I should like to see a Prince marrying a Princesse...at least, time to time! :lol:

Vanesa.

dragonsfire8 01-06-2007 12:15 AM

:yuk: Although it would be wrong for this to happen...come on they are cousins for crying out loud!!! But considering what the IHA can and could do, unless something changes to limit their influences and allow women on the throne, I'll bet all my money on the IHA doing something as crazy, stupid, and disgusting as this.:furious:

Lakshmi 01-06-2007 12:34 AM

No way. I don't see this happening. I know in the past there were arranged marriages between close cousins in almost all monarchies. But I think it will not happend in Japan. Both Akihito and Naruhito had wives who were commoners and marriages were no arranged.

Elspeth 01-06-2007 03:48 AM

I doubt that the IHA would be all that bothered; female royals seem to be superfluous to requirement, after all. As long as Prince Hisahito doesn't want to go and marry a blue-eyed blonde foreigner, I don't suppose he'll be expected to marry a Japanese royal. The IHA doesn't seem to have any particular fondness for the present Crown Prince and his family, after all.

Rossina 01-06-2007 04:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lox
Is this something that might happen in the future?

Maybe this is a stupid thing even to consider, but I'm pretty sure that Hisahito and Aiko would have been forced to marry each other if the year was 1606, not 2006.

I cant say yes or No .... maybe...:smile:

Sister Morphine 01-06-2007 04:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elspeth
I doubt that the IHA would be all that bothered; female royals seem to be superfluous to requirement, after all. As long as Prince Hisahito doesn't want to go and marry a blue-eyed blonde foreigner, I don't suppose he'll be expected to marry a Japanese royal. The IHA doesn't seem to have any particular fondness for the present Crown Prince and his family, after all.


I agree, I think their treatment of CPss Masako has been downright deplorable.


That said, I hope he DOES marry someone like that, and she looks like Paris Hilton. That oughta give them a right fright, no? :lol:

Furienna 01-27-2007 08:24 PM

I agree, that back in the day, Japanese princes could only marry princesses. Heck, even most of the concubines had some imperial blood, didn't they? And even though the imperial family was bigger back then, I'm sure, that there had to be many marriages between first cousins. However, I don't think this has to happen to princess Aiko and prince Hisahito. Say what you want about the IHA, but I don't think even they could pull this off now in the 21rst century.

noriko_barbarossa 01-28-2007 07:05 PM

i don't think it's gonna happen...this is the 21st century not..the Edo period....marrage bethven cousins is ilegal in Japan i think...Say what you want about the IHA, but I don't think even they could pull this off now in the 21rst century.

lotus 01-30-2007 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pianohabebi
You're correct Princess Robijn. From what I have been told by my professor, Japan has had eight empresses since from around 660 BC.

Yes, In the history of Japan, there are eight empresses. But the problem is... some of them became the empresses when their sons were child. When their sons grew up, these empresses gave up the throne to their sons. The other empresses never get married, when they died, they passed the throne to their brother or cousin.

Princess Robijn 01-30-2007 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lotus
But the problem is... some of them became the empresses when their sons were child. When their sons grew up, these empresses gave up the throne to their sons. The other empresses never get married, when they died, they passed the throne to their brother or cousin.

So what's the problem!

Vanesa 01-30-2007 09:04 PM

I should like such a marriage! However, we must not push the young people to marry to each other. They must only marry IF they are in love...In mutual love I mean. All the "interest marriages" were a complete disaster, even if they seemed to be a great solution in the moment they were concerted.

Here, we must hear Princess Aiko and Prince Hisahito's opinions. That's for sure. :rolleyes:

Vanesa.

otty 01-31-2007 06:30 AM

I don't think it will happen in this era, but who knows??? The crown prince of Thailand also married to his cousin.

lotus 01-31-2007 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Princess Robijn
So what's the problem!

I mean, In the history of Japan, every emperor is from paternal line. That's why some Japanese disapprove Princess Aiko become the Empress. If Princess Aiko become the Empress, and she get married, the throne line waill become maternal line.

Princess Robijn 01-31-2007 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lotus
I mean, In the history of Japan, every emperor is from paternal line. That's why some Japanese disapprove Princess Aiko become the Empress. If Princess Aiko become the Empress, and she get married, the throne line waill become maternal line.

Didn't you say "some of them became the empresses when their sons were child." Could that not happen to Princess Aiko and would that not be the same??

Elspeth 01-31-2007 02:09 PM

It would only be the same if she was married to a man who was a descendant of one of the branches of the royal family himself. If she had a son by a commoner, that son wouldn't be from the imperial family in the paternal line. And apparently the paternal line is the only one that counts, even though they're supposed to have descended from a goddess.

kimebear 01-31-2007 05:40 PM

While I certainly don't hope that this is the outcome, it would not be inconceivable if it did. Within the small confines of the Imperial Palace Aiko and Hisahito may be raised with the definite intention of them marrying. With so little outside company, they could possibly fall in love with each other. The current situation with the Japanese throne has no precedent given the enormous task of holding to traditions while appeasing a modernizing population. The only "gross" factor arising out of such a marriage is our own recoiling at the thought of marrying and conceiving children with our own first cousins. It is just not done anymore with any regularity since there is no longer a widespread practice of "keeping the money in the family". Biologically speaking, as long as the parents of the children involved do not all share a common ancestry, there is no more danger to their child in defect than to any other child. The only resulting factor being a higher risk of any disease history that is common to the related parents. Don't think for one minute that the IHA has not thought about this seriously as a solution.

lilytornado 01-31-2007 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kimebear
While I certainly don't hope that this is the outcome, it would not be inconceivable if it did. Within the small confines of the Imperial Palace Aiko and Hisahito may be raised with the definite intention of them marrying. With so little outside company, they could possibly fall in love with each other. The current situation with the Japanese throne has no precedent given the enormous task of holding to traditions while appeasing a modernizing population. The only "gross" factor arising out of such a marriage is our own recoiling at the thought of marrying and conceiving children with our own first cousins. It is just not done anymore with any regularity since there is no longer a widespread practice of "keeping the money in the family". Biologically speaking, as long as the parents of the children involved do not all share a common ancestry, there is no more danger to their child in defect than to any other child. The only resulting factor being a higher risk of any disease history that is common to the related parents. Don't think for one minute that the IHA has not thought about this seriously as a solution.

Concerning the marriage of first cousins, there are different traditions in different countries. It is not "gross" in all countries. I don´t know the situation in Japan though.

kimebear 01-31-2007 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lilytornado
Concerning the marriage of first cousins, there are different traditions in different countries. It is not "gross" in all countries. I don´t know the situation in Japan though.

The only problem I have with it is the possibility of a forced marriage if there is no love between them. I don't think that first cousins marrying is gross under those circumstances. I just don't think it should become a custom generation after generation because of the eventual biological breakdown.

lilytornado 01-31-2007 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kimebear
The only problem I have with it is the possibility of a forced marriage if there is no love between them. I don't think that first cousins marrying is gross under those circumstances. I just don't think it should become a custom generation after generation because of the eventual biological breakdown.

Yes, there I have the same opinion. Marriage never should be forced and Cousin marriage should be no custom generation after generation because of the eventual biological breakdown.
Only if they loved each other, they should marry. Yes, it might be weird to marry someone you know since you are little, but the same thing occures if you marry any friend you are very close since you were little.
There are some cousins (I happen to know some) that lived in different countries while growing up, got to know each other as adults, fell in love and married.

dragonsfire8 01-31-2007 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kimebear
The only problem I have with it is the possibility of a forced marriage if there is no love between them. I don't think that first cousins marrying is gross under those circumstances. I just don't think it should become a custom generation after generation because of the eventual biological breakdown.

Very true. With the current situation, the supposed "sibling rivalry" between Crown Prince Naruhito's & Prince Akishino's families on top of the succession crisis, a marriage between two families won't solve the tension and othe problems between the two sides. However, I also would not be surprised if there will be a forced marriage...I really can see the IHA going to this extreme. I really feel sorry for the the kids and their parents.:sad:

lilytornado 01-31-2007 08:21 PM

I have the feeling that the future for both Hisahito and Aiko won´t be easy.. Aiko will either be Empress (I don't think so but who knows) and facing all the difficulties being a female, finding a partner etc, or facing the same fate her aunt Sayako does.
With Hisahito the same thing... all this pressure of being the only imperial heir...it might be lonely for him as well growing up, and then he has to find a suitable crown princess...

Vanesa 01-31-2007 10:12 PM

Well, yes. I share your opinions: any forced marraige will be a disaster, within first Cousins or not. At least for me, only love marriages are acceptable...But of course, Japanese Royals will not pay any attention to me and my wishes! :lol:

Vanesa.

Princess Robijn 02-01-2007 06:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elspeth
It would only be the same if she was married to a man who was a descendant of one of the branches of the royal family himself. If she had a son by a commoner, that son wouldn't be from the imperial family in the paternal line. And apparently the paternal line is the only one that counts, even though they're supposed to have descended from a goddess.

Good point, I didn't think of that..

lotus 02-01-2007 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Princess Robijn
Didn't you say "some of them became the empresses when their sons were child." Could that not happen to Princess Aiko and would that not be the same??

These Empresses are the wife of Emperor. When the Emperor died, and their son is child, the empress(wife of Emperor) ascend the throne. When her son grow up, she abdicated the throne.

Princess Aiko is a "Princess" , not the wife of Emperor. So this situation would not happen to Princess Aiko.

Lox 02-02-2007 06:52 AM

Well, marriages between cousins is legal in Japan, and seems to be quite common. The frequency of cousin marriages in Japan is about 4 in 1000.

The important question is fertility. Hisahitos future wife MUST be able to have children. What if Aiko has inherited some of her mothers problems in this area (if it's possible to inherit these problems)?

wymanda 02-02-2007 08:03 AM

I'm just reading a biography of Masako and given the treatment she has recieved by those of the imperial household I think Aiko would be better off to marry a commoner and get right away from the imperial family and their minions.

Elspeth 02-02-2007 03:11 PM

You mean this book, wymanda?

http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums...lia-11251.html

It doesn't hold out a lot of hope for Masako's future happiness, does it?

wymanda 02-02-2007 08:00 PM

Quote:

You mean this book, wymanda?

http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums...lia-11251.html

It doesn't hold out a lot of hope for Masako's future happiness, does it?
Thats the one!
Actually my one thought was that the occupying forces after WW2 were rather smart. By making the Emperor virtually a prisoner of the burearcracy and imposing such rules on the succession the Americans have virtually ensured that the Imperial family will die out.

Vanesa 02-02-2007 10:50 PM

All this affair is very complicate, it seems. We must let the whole thing in Japanese people's hand. We don't understand this issue, for we are not Japanese not are living in Japan.

However, I uses to think that things could be easier is humanity would not be so intrincate and susceptible...;)

Vanesa.

wymanda 02-03-2007 02:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanesa
All this affair is very complicate, it seems. We must let the whole thing in Japanese people's hand. We don't understand this issue, for we are not Japanese not are living in Japan.

However, I uses to think that things could be easier is humanity would not be so intrincate and susceptible...;)

Vanesa.

Personally I think that if Masako is an example of how women are treated then Japan has serious human rights issues and they need to be censured through the United Nations as that is not acceptable in the modern world. :mad:

Sister Morphine 02-03-2007 02:13 AM

The more I think about this, the more [honestly] disgusted at the thought I am. First cousins marrying? That's a little too close for comfort. It would be one thing if they were cousins through marriage and have no blood ties to one another. It would be awkward, but doable if there is no viable alternative. However, they share bloodlines. That's just creepy.

lilytornado 02-03-2007 02:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sister Morphine
The more I think about this, the more [honestly] disgusted at the thought I am. First cousins marrying? That's a little too close for comfort. It would be one thing if they were cousins through marriage and have no blood ties to one another. It would be awkward, but doable if there is no viable alternative. However, they share bloodlines. That's just creepy.

Most royal marriages share bloodlines, exept those with commoners.

Sister Morphine 02-03-2007 03:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lilytornado
Most royal marriages share bloodlines, exept those with commoners.


This is very close bloodlines, though. Their fathers are brothers.

CrownPrinceLorenzo 02-06-2007 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lotus
Yes, In the history of Japan, there are eight empresses. But the problem is... some of them became the empresses when their sons were child. When their sons grew up, these empresses gave up the throne to their sons. The other empresses never get married, when they died, they passed the throne to their brother or cousin.

Throne abdication isn't exclusive to female monarchs. Almost all Japanese monarchs abdicate when their designated heir comes of age. REGARDLESS of gender.

Also, son ruling Empresses ascended the throne AFTER their son dies. They're chosen by the council as the new monarch when the son doesn't have a designated heir.

This was possible because the female is of Imperial blood and very close in kinship to the last Emperor. Like a first cousin, or niece, etc.

And another misconception about ruling Empresses is that they were merely regents. This is false.

A regent will have a retained his/her title.

Examples:

Jingu Kogo was a regent for her infant son when her husband died. Her title was "Kogo", the wife of the sovereign has this title. Empress Michiko has this title.

Shotoku Taishi was regent for Suiko Tenno. Shotoku's title was "Taishi" or "Prince". It's an old rendering of Prince compared to the more modern "Shinno".

The sovereign has the title of "Tenno" or "Heavenly Sovereign". It English it's either translated as "Emperor" or "Empress (ruling)" if it's a female. Suiko Tenno that I've previously mentioned was one (in fact the first) of the eight ruling Empresses. Emperor Akihito has this title.

Aiko.fan 06-18-2009 05:10 AM

Royal Cousin Marriage in 12th century Japan
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lox (Post 538468)
Is this something that might happen in the future?

Maybe this is a stupid thing even to consider, but I'm pretty sure that Hisahito and Aiko would have been forced to marry each other if the year was 1606, not 2006.

Marriage between first cousin DID happened in Japanese Royal Family. It happened sometimes after the year of 1171, between Norihito (Emperor Takakura) and Tokuko (later Kenrei Mon In) from Taira (also called by Heike) clan. Tokuko was 6 years his senior. And she adopted beforehand by Norihito's dad, Emperor Go-Shirakawa. Unique thing about this is, both of them are related by their mothers who are sisters.
The motive is true politic. Because it means a strong joint alliance between Imperial Family and the most ruling & prominent military power at that time. By creating that marriage, both families can enjoyed the mutual advantage of privileges they can get from each other. Since the Shogunate was not yet created, Taira as a Samurai families, no matter how powerfull they are, didn't have the rights & ranks as equal as noble families. So after this marriage, Tokuko's dad, whose the supreme leader of Taira, was eligible to become Prime Minister.

click this: Taira no Tokuko - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Grandduchess24 03-21-2011 10:27 PM

Could that be possible or does cousin marriage really exist in japan? Because aiko marrying a Japanese prince to keep her title is a little hard since the only Japanese princes are her cousins and uncles.

Furienna 03-23-2011 06:58 AM

I don't think it will happen. Cousin marriages were okay back in the day, but not anymore.

XeniaCasaraghi 09-16-2011 06:05 PM

If cousins marrying is legal in Japan then it "could" happen. I have a problem with it personally, but one of my favorite royal couples of all time, Victoria and Albert, were first cousins.

Mermaid1962 09-16-2011 06:17 PM

Genetically, marriages between first cousins isn't dangerous as long as there are a lot of other influences in the gene pool. There are two sets of parents; unlike in the case of brother-and-sister marriages where there's just the one set of parents--and which is also obviously considered incest. It depends on the culture more than anything unless there's an extended family with a lot of intermarriage.

IloveCP 09-16-2011 06:18 PM

I highly doubt it.The reasons for that are obvious!

Iluvbertie 09-16-2011 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IloveCP (Post 1317157)
I highly doubt it.The reasons for that are obvious!


The reasons for it are extremely obvious - it shuts up the people who want Aiko to inherit as she is the daughter of the next Emperor and shuts up those who want a male heir - as long as their first born is a boy then the problem of female inheritance can be put off for another two generations.

First cousin marriages have been common at all levels of society for generations. It is only in more recent centuries where this became less frequent as people came into contact with a broader range of people.

Mirabel 09-18-2011 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iluvbertie (Post 1317158)
The reasons for it are extremely obvious - it shuts up the people who want Aiko to inherit as she is the daughter of the next Emperor and shuts up those who want a male heir - as long as their first born is a boy then the problem of female inheritance can be put off for another two generations.

First cousin marriages have been common at all levels of society for generations. It is only in more recent centuries where this became less frequent as people came into contact with a broader range of people.

Well-said!
Cousin marriage is still widely prevalent in many societies, and it isn't a problem genetically unless the gene pool has been much restricted in the past.

Still, it seems unlikely Aiko will wed Hisahito anyway, the age gap for one thing.

XeniaCasaraghi 09-30-2011 10:37 PM

Age gap? It's 5 freakin years for crying out loud! In 2011 thats not a gap, its a crack. Because of the situation in Japan if Aiko marries anyone else doesn't she end up like her aunt?

Furienna 10-03-2011 07:19 AM

I don't know what the Japanese think about the wife being older than the husband though. It's not such a big deal in the western world anymore, but it still is in some parts of the world, and as far as I know right now, that might include Japan. And how do the Japanese feel about cousin marriages these days? It's totally acceptable, and maybe even recommended, in some countries, but again, I don't know about Japan.

But yes, unless Aiko gets married to Hisahito, she will lose her royal status on her wedding day, just like her aunt did, unless the law has been changed by then.

Mermaid1962 10-03-2011 11:10 PM

What is the reason behind a Japanese Imperial Highness losing her style when she marries? Is it because she's now identified as a member of her husband's family?

Furienna 10-06-2011 08:57 PM

Yes, that would probably be it. Out of our king's four sisters, three of them are technically no longer part of the royal house, even though we still call them princesses, because they didn't marry princes. And the Japanese traditions about this are still very much like what ours were until not that many decades ago.

Mermaid1962 10-06-2011 09:46 PM

:previous: Someone, perhaps Al_bina, wrote on a forum that in Asian marriages, the bride is seen to become part of her new family to an extent that she's not expected to have much to do with her birth family anymore. So I think that the tradition there is stronger even than in Europe.:ermm:

ChiaraC 10-09-2011 11:08 AM

I do not know exactly about Japan, but I know that in traditional China a married woman was supposed to love and respect her parents-in-law much more than her own parents. That was also one of the reasons why people used to be disappointed about having a daughter. If they had a son, they knew that he and his wife were bound to support them in their old age and to take care of them. In contrast, having a daughter would not help the parents at all because, after marriage, she would have no choice but to spend all her time serving her parents-in-law. Nobody would tolerate her neglecting her duty towards them in order to support her own parents.

In Japan, the name of a daughter who married would be literally obliterated with black brush-strokes from the family´s koseki (family register). I do not know if it is still done with a brush but, in principle, the fact remains. Married couples have to agree to have only one family name on the koseki. That is why a former member of parliament, Hiroko Mizushima, and her husband divorced and remarried several times because they wanted both to keep their names. When they married, Mizushima and her husband, filmmaker Satoshi Hasegawa, officially chose Mizushima as a surname. But because they were determined to use their own names in everyday life, they had to get divorced whenever Hasegawa needed official documents, such as a passport, in his own name. (Bye the way, I find it quite interesting that Mizushima started by being a psychiatrist, working primarily with children and adolescent women suffering eating disorders. By this work and the experience she derived from it, she was inspired to join politics because she felt that the problems of her mentally ill patients went way beyond themselves. "The social system is creating their problems," she said at the time. “With fathers under severe stress at work and mothers resentful after abandoning careers, little wonder that children are unhappy and unable to communicate. She added, "Dealing with these youngsters, I could see no hope for the future of Japan.")

But, in traditional Japan, there has also been the possibility of a husband taking his wife´s name and becoming part of HER family. This could be done when a family had only daughters, to carry on the family line. (And here is the difference between commoners and imperial family in Japan because, as we know, the imperial family cannot do that.)

I have read a very intriguing novel about such a case, written by Japanese woman, Hisako Matsubara. I am really fascinated by the fact that she came as an adult to Germany and managed to learn the language so well that she was able to write books in German. She has written several novels, most of them set in recent Japanese history, and I have learnt a lot from them. Two of them have been translated into English, Cranes at Dusk and Samurai, and I´d recommend both. The first deals with a Japanese family the father of which is a Shinto priest. Maybe he is a bit idealized but as the Western image of Shinto is much influenced by the fact that it has been (and, to some extent, still is) abused for political nationalist purposes, I was very glad to get to read something about the fascinating philosophical side of Shinto. The other book, Samurai, is why I am even mentioning Matsubara here. It tells the story of a young man who marries into his wife´s family. His father-in-law, old and rich samurai Hayato, sends him to America, alone, to win back the family honour. The young man has no choice but to go because as an adoptive son, he has no possibility to oppose his adoptive father/father-in-law. But in America, nobody cares for his outstanding law degree... It is a shockingly tragic story, but I think that it brilliantly explores a certain aspect of Japan and the Japanese. (And, btw, it seems to me that I have even read somewhere that a similar story has indeed happened in Matsubara´s family, to her grandfather maybe.)

Admiral Horthy 09-01-2014 08:50 PM

The obvious solution is to amend the constitution so that Imperial princesses don't have to leave the Imperial family. Remember, this was imposed by the US.

Furienna 09-01-2014 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChiaraC (Post 1324652)
I have read a very intriguing novel about such a case, written by Japanese woman, Hisako Matsubara. I am really fascinated by the fact that she came as an adult to Germany and managed to learn the language so well that she was able to write books in German. She has written several novels, most of them set in recent Japanese history, and I have learnt a lot from them. Two of them have been translated into English, Cranes at Dusk and Samurai, and I´d recommend both. The first deals with a Japanese family the father of which is a Shinto priest. Maybe he is a bit idealized but as the Western image of Shinto is much influenced by the fact that it has been (and, to some extent, still is) abused for political nationalist purposes, I was very glad to get to read something about the fascinating philosophical side of Shinto. The other book, Samurai, is why I am even mentioning Matsubara here. It tells the story of a young man who marries into his wife´s family. His father-in-law, old and rich samurai Hayato, sends him to America, alone, to win back the family honour. The young man has no choice but to go because as an adoptive son, he has no possibility to oppose his adoptive father/father-in-law. But in America, nobody cares for his outstanding law degree... It is a shockingly tragic story, but I think that it brilliantly explores a certain aspect of Japan and the Japanese. (And, btw, it seems to me that I have even read somewhere that a similar story has indeed happened in Matsubara´s family, to her grandfather maybe.)

I've got "Samurai" in the book shelf on my left, but I haven't read it yet. :flowers:

Biri 09-02-2014 04:48 AM

It's too risky; they are first cousins, too closely related; such a relationship could produce a child with genetic disorder.

KittyAtlanta 09-02-2014 11:53 AM

^^^You won't necessarily have a child with a birth defect, but the chances are higher than if two non-related people have a baby. The chances of defect are about the same for a 41 year old woman giving birth, of which there are plenty around these days.

Ish 09-02-2014 03:23 PM

Kitty, I was about to say the same thing.

The genetic problems of cousins marrying only really comes into play when multiple generations partake in cousin marriage.

Mirabel 09-08-2014 07:10 AM

Is marriage between first cousins legal in Japan?

In most states in the USA, it is prohibited, but I know it is common in many other countries.

Duc_et_Pair 09-08-2014 08:14 AM

Cousin-cousin marriage is allowed in Japan, though the incidence has declined over the decades. The risks are pretty oversee-able.

Aiko's and Hisahito's grandmother Empress Michiko comes from the Shoda family, so "new blood" into the imperial family. Aiko's mother Masako comes from the Owada family, also "new blood" into the imperial family. Hisahito's mother comes from the Kawashima family, another "new blood" into the imperial family. The narrowing of the gene pool is minimal in the case of Hisahito and Aiko.

Bine221 09-08-2014 08:24 AM

I think, it is a Blessing NOT to become the future wife of Hia****o.

Looking at the (cruel) fate of the current Empress Michito (not speaking for years) and CP Masako (Depression) I would wish all the best for Aiko to fall in love in a Man "outside" the Royal Household and marry him.
And getting rid of the horrible "Grey Man"....
BYe Bine

Duc_et_Pair 09-08-2014 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bine221 (Post 1700257)
I think, it is a Blessing NOT to become the future wife of Hia****o.

Looking at the (cruel) fate of the current Empress Michito (not speaking for years) and CP Masako (Depression) I would wish all the best for Aiko to fall in love in a Man "outside" the Royal Household and marry him.
And getting rid of the horrible "Grey Man"....
BYe Bine

The only royal whom seems to suffer is (was?) Masako. The other royal ladies seem to cope fairly well with their roles anyway. Princess Kiko seems a very sound and happy-looking lady with self-assurance and charisma. Of course Empress Michiko might have had her own problems adjusting to her role at the imperial court but that is not really new and happened (happens) at all royal and imperial courts.

An advantage of a marriage between Prince Hisahito and Princess Aiko is that the last one knows no better than life under court protocol. No adjustments needed.

:flowers:

JR76 09-08-2014 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair (Post 1700282)
The only royal whom seems to suffer is (was?) Masako. The other royal ladies seem to cope fairly well with their roles anyway. Princess Kiko seems a very sound and happy-looking lady with self-assurance and charisma. Of course Empress Michiko might have had her own problems adjusting to her role at the imperial court but that is not really new and happened (happens) at all royal and imperial courts.

An advantage of a marriage between Prince Hisahito and Princess Aiko is that the last one knows no better than life under court protocol. No adjustments needed.

:flowers:


Hasn't Empress Michiko been critically ill several times during her marriage because of stress and bullying? I seem to recall she even lost her ability to speak at one time.


Sent from my iPhone using The Royals Community mobile app

Bine221 09-08-2014 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR76 (Post 1700296)
Hasn't Empress Michiko been critically ill several times during her marriage because of stress and bullying? I seem to recall she even lost her ability to speak at one time.


Sent from my iPhone using The Royals Community mobile app

I heard the same - she did not speak for several YEARS!
Bye Bine

Duc_et_Pair 09-08-2014 10:34 AM

There are a lot of stories around which have little to do with reality. The mother-in-law of the present Empress, the Empress Kojun, was not at all happy with Michiko. Her opposition might have been extreme depending on who one chooses to believe, but it is all rumors as the Japanese monarchy has always been very good about keeping any private troubles private.

When in 1989 Emperor Hirohito died, the calm and serene life of the crown princely couple abruptly ended. It was an immense responsibility for the couple to undertake and the Court admitted that Empress Michiko was having some health issues related to stress surrounding her new role. In the years since Empress Michiko has shown herself to be a strong lady, adjusting to the demanding imperial life and succeeding brilliantly, becoming a beloved member of the Japanese royal, pardon: imperial family.

KittyAtlanta 09-08-2014 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mirabel (Post 1700207)
Is marriage between first cousins legal in Japan?

In most states in the USA, it is prohibited, but I know it is common in many other countries.

Only 23 states prohibit cousin-cousin marriage. Twenty-seven states do not prohibit.

TLLK 09-08-2014 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bine221 (Post 1700257)
I think, it is a Blessing NOT to become the future wife of Hia****o.

Looking at the (cruel) fate of the current Empress Michito (not speaking for years) and CP Masako (Depression) I would wish all the best for Aiko to fall in love in a Man "outside" the Royal Household and marry him.
And getting rid of the horrible "Grey Man"....
BYe Bine

I wholeheartedly agree.

Mirabel 09-09-2014 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KittyAtlanta (Post 1700378)
Only 23 states prohibit cousin-cousin marriage. Twenty-seven states do not prohibit.


I looked it up, and only six states permit first-cousin marriage.

(Although all states recognize the legality of marriages performed in a state that allows it).

Duc_et_Pair 09-09-2014 04:22 PM

The late Prince Claus, who married into a Royal House of one of the most liberal, tolerant and easygoing countries of the world (the Netherlands) suffered severe depressions and practically was out of the running as Consort from 1982 until his death in 2004. The public appearances in between often showed a pain-stricken and burdened gentleman.

So it is nonsense to blame it on the Japanese Court what happened to Princess Masako. Her very own sister-in-law Princess Kiko comes over as a sound, modern and approachable, almost Western-style, lady whom nevertheless finds her way in the Imperial Court. I find it nonsense already to feel sorry for a possible lady who will marry Prince Hisahito. Maybe the Japanese will feel very sorry for a Catherine Middleton who has to endure the -in Japanese eyes- unbearably intrusive media all her life long....

Ish 09-10-2014 03:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mirabel (Post 1700833)
I looked it up, and only six states permit first-cousin marriage.

(Although all states recognize the legality of marriages performed in a state that allows it).

According to Wikipedia's page Cousin marriage law in the United States, first cousins are allowed to marry in 20 states (with 2 of those being states where it's allowed with exceptions or requirements), is banned with exceptions in 6 states (2 of which it is also a criminal offense), is outright banned in 19 states, and is a criminal offense in the other 5 states. So, the majority technically ban it, but more then a fair share allow it to. Assuming Wikipedia is accurate.

Continuing with Wikipedia's information, they list the majority of countries for which information was available on the issue as allowing marriage between first cousins (they don't have information for most of Africa and a chunk of Asia and Oceania). Most of North America and Europe allow it, all of South Africa, both Australia and New Zealand, a lot of the Middle East, and all of the parts of Africa for which there is information. There are more countries that allow it than don't.

Mirabel 09-10-2014 07:56 AM

Now I'm unsure.

This is the site I was going by:
State Laws Regarding Marriages Between First Cousins

Ish 09-10-2014 03:00 PM

That page says that 6 states allow first cousin marriage with conditions, then lists 20 states that allow first cousin marriage with no conditions.


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