The Royal Forums

The Royal Forums (http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/)
-   Other Non-Reigning Houses and Historical Monarchies (http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f186/)
-   -   Royal House of Georgia (http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f186/royal-house-of-georgia-10838.html)

richardsw 09-17-2006 09:11 PM

Royal House of Georgia
 
have heard that the headship of the royal house is split between Prince George Bagration of Moukhransky and Prince Nugzar Bagration of Georgia. Does anyone have any pictures of these two men and their families? Does anyone have information concerning the monarchy and the current line of succession to the Headship of the Royal House?

Warren 09-18-2006 12:20 AM

The Royal House of Georgia


Arms of the Bagration Dynasty

Here are some links to information on the Bagration Dynasty:

Bagration (Georgia and Moukhrani): HISTORY OF THE BAGRATID DYNASTY

Georgia - The Bagration Dynasty: georgia

Wikipedia - The Bagration Dynasty: Bagrationi Dynasty - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Bagration Royal Dynasty of Georgia (575AD to the present day, with pictures): The International Academy for the Promotion of Scientific Research

RubyPrincess168 10-03-2006 04:42 AM

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe...eut/index.html

If Russia were to give up Georgia and it became and independant country again, would their monarchy be reinstated? Would "Grand Duchess" Marie Vladinova (or what ever her name is) try to make a claim for this throne as well (because her mother or grandmother, I can't remember which, was descended from the ruling house of Georgia)?

Avalon 10-03-2006 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RubyPrincess168
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe...eut/index.html

If Russia were to give up Georgia and it became and independant country again, would their monarchy be reinstated? Would "Grand Duchess" Marie Vladinova (or what ever her name is) try to make a claim for this throne as well (because her mother or grandmother, I can't remember which, was descended from the ruling house of Georgia)?

I don't qutie understand what you mean by saying 'if Russia were to give up Georgia and it became indipendant country again...'.

Georgia is an indipendent country and is not by any means a part of the Russian Federation. It has borders with Russia, Armenia, Turkey and Azerbajain.

And no, the Georgians didn't apparantely think of reinstating the Monarchy after the collapse of the Soviet Union.

RubyPrincess168 10-04-2006 06:09 AM

Sorry! I didn't realize they were an independant country again. The article talked about Russia cutting transportation, food, supplies, etc to Georgia so I just assumed......

Iverieli 07-04-2007 08:41 PM

Hello all,

I'm Georgian and I'm royalist. I got Royal forum by georgian language Iveria. and I did study and research Georgian Kings and royal family histories.

Name Iveria/Iberia is Georgia's old name.

I wanted on this forum to have Georgian Royal House too but was too many things to have not time for come here.

I'm really happy to find you guys again and remembered my old registration details.

It will be honor for me if you decide to make Georgian Royal house on this forum.

I will tell very few words about our Bagrationi royal house. The Bagrationi family has a story, that they are from Israel King David. The family ruled Georgia from 6 century to 19 century. This is whole 1300 years. No other family was in Georgia, only them. They were most powerful and very brave, many of them dead for country and name for Jesus Christ. We have a lot Saint King. The best Georgian King was David IV (1073-1125), His second name in Europe was King-Priest and also many european historians says he was one of with Tampliers. The King of Jerusalim Baldwin II was in Georgia with David IV and we think it secret meeting and after that Baldwin became king.

We have now Royal family - Bagration-Mukhraneli dinasty. The information about Nugzar Bagration-Gruzinski is wrong and some historians have not very good information and they saying this things.

The Bagration-Gruzinski dinasty is finishing. There no more male on that family and Georgia always was under Salic law/Agnatic primogeniture. That means to First family is Bagration-mukhraneli because their genealogy coming from United Georgian Kingdoms Kings. Bagration-Gruzinski family was from one georgian region, which was independence from 15 century and they ruled Georgia's prime Rigion Qartli helped by Iran King on 18 century and were only 80 years, then 1801 Russian imperator did very very wrong decision and canceled Georgian independence, Georgian kingdom, Georgian Orthodox Church independence. I don't want now to talk about russians and what they did in Georgia. Maybe will come time for that and this is very big shame for russians too.

The Georgia is oldest country in the world. First Georgian countries was 4000 years ago, the Georgian language is more old then 4000 years, and Georgia was one of first country were Christianity became state religion on 319 years. On 4th century no russia was there. :)

I will write down more informations about Georgian Royal Family. And, Georgian Orthodox Church and too many georgians working to Georgian Monarchy reinstate near future. This is our best aim and our job to do.

Avalon 07-05-2007 06:57 AM

Welcome back Iverieli! :flowers:

The Bagration family is a very important one for Armenia as well, where it rules for several centuries, so obviously I'm very interested in them as well.

Although I think we have slightly different sources of their origin - our History suggests that the Georgian Bagrationi Dynasty branced from Armenian Bagratid dynasty in the 8th century, when they left Armenia for Georgia.
Prince Adarnase, whose father Vasak (son of Ashot III of Armenia, presiding prince of Armenia from up to 748) passed to Kartli following an abortive uprising against Arab rule in 77. Adarnase’s son, Ashot I, attained to the principate of Kartli in 813. Accordingly, the legend of Davidic origin of the Georgian Bagratids was a further development of the earlier claim entertained by the Armenian dynasty and Movses Khorenaci (or as they call him in English, Moses of Khorene).

Thank you for all the interesting details about the moder Bagrations. :smile:

Iverieli 07-05-2007 08:48 AM

Hi Avalon,

I think you have very different story about Bagrationi. There were seven brothers and they came from Israel, three brothers stayed Armenia and four brothers went to Georgia (Kartli). The connection between Armenian and Georgian Bagrationi family only this, then Armenian Bagratid dynasty wasn't from 10-11 century. When Georgian King David IV went to Armenia and became also Armenian king. After 11 century Georgian kings name was: "King of the Abkhazis, Kartvelians, Ranians, Kakhetians and the Armenians. 17-19 century Armenia was Iranian province and only 20 century became independence country.

I remember one very good story. When Armenia and Georgia both were under Iranian rule. The Georgian King was Vakhtang VI (Kartli, Kakheti and Imereti regions). Armenian patriots start connections with King Vakhtang and was very famous person Jalalian who had secret connections with Georgian King. The plan was to Georgian king will fight for Armenia and then in Caucasus region make Georgian and Armenian independence state and King Vakhtang VI. It was in 18th century. That time all Armenians looking for Georgian King and they wanted to be their king too.

Georgian Bagrationi ruled Kartli from 6th century, and after that they moved other Georgian region Tao-Klarjeti and they became Kings. From 9th century.

First King from Bagrationi dinasty was Ashot I Great (813-826) and he was Kartli Prince and from 813 he became King of Georgians.

Bagrationi and Bagratid dynasty were from Israel and Georgian Bagrationi always saying King David of Jerusalem was their ancestor. The story which you write down is not correct and I really don't know why Armenian historians write same and other things.

This is very good site about Bagrationi dinasty: Georgia you can see there all Georgian Kings and their family members. There also mistakes but its good to read.

Warren 07-05-2007 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iverieli
The story which you write down is not correct and I really don't know why Armenian historians write same and other things.

When historians are attempting to make sense of dynastic lineages from the 7th, 8th and 9th centuries (and even before), there are bound to be different interpretations.
Naturally enough, each country will put it's own spin on things, so from the viewpoint of 1200 to 1400 years after the events there's little point in arguing in certainties.
Both Georgia and Armenia will interpret events from their own national and cultural perspectives, and therefore differently.

Iverieli 07-05-2007 09:23 AM

Yes Warren you correct but when Armenian stories always says very very not true things and we have Georgian and foreign Historians books where they saying absolutely different things I have full responsibility to say my good friend Avalon to his story little wrong. :)

Warren 07-05-2007 09:29 AM

I think the thread would benefit from a continuation of the history of the Royal House of Georgia, rather than be sidetracked into a debate over Armenian historical interpretation.
Thanks.

Avalon 07-05-2007 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iverieli (Post 636662)
Hi Avalon,

I think you have very different story about Bagrationi. There were seven brothers and they came from Israel, three brothers stayed Armenia and four brothers went to Georgia (Kartli). The connection between Armenian and Georgian Bagrationi family only this, then Armenian Bagratid dynasty wasn't from 10-11 century. When Georgian King David IV went to Armenia and became also Armenian king. After 11 century Georgian kings name was: "King of the Abkhazis, Kartvelians, Ranians, Kakhetians and the Armenians. 17-19 century Armenia was Iranian province and only 20 century became independence country...

I was only giving the Armenian version of it, in no way I suggest yours is wrong. Different countires would have different perspectives. My father and his ancectors are coming from Georgia (Akhaltsikhe), so I take Georgian History very close to my hear as well. In any case, our countries share so many things, especially when it comes to history. :flowers:

According to Wikipedia's article on Bagrationis (which is not the most reliable source sometimes), both stories are there, but Armenian one seems more likely (which doesn't mean it's the right one).

Iverieli 07-05-2007 09:36 AM

Quote:

My father and his ancectors are coming from Georgia (Akhaltsikhe)
Yeeeeeees, I wish you know georgian language to come my georgian forum. You are half georgian man, very nice to heard this.

You know how many Armenians dead when they fighting for Tbilisi? too much and they were brave as Georgians and they fight for Tbilisi against Iranian Shah Aga-Mahmad-Khan. The most stories about Georgian and Armenian people so tragic, we both nation fight every century for our countries independence and hope always should be friend in caucasus region. We are two very old christian country and we need live peacefully together.

P.S. Don't trust wikipedia. The good story this: Georgian Royal Family.

Elsa M. 07-05-2007 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by richardsw (Post 506927)
have heard that the headship of the royal house is split between Prince George Bagration of Moukhransky and Prince Nugzar Bagration of Georgia. Does anyone have any pictures of these two men and their families?

Prince George Bagration lives in Spain and is married to the Spanish Infanta María de las Mercedes (granddaughter of Alfonso XII).

Here's a photo of him:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._Bagration.jpg



Prince Bagrat Bagration-Mukhransky (*1949) is also another Georgian Prince living in Spain. We have some photos from his son Juan's wedding:
http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/452422-post97.html

There's also a photo of his daughter Inés, in this stunning photo shoot:
http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums...oot-10028.html

Iverieli 07-05-2007 09:41 AM

Quote:

Prince George Bagration lives in Spain and is married to the Spanish Infanta María de las Mercedes (granddaughter of Alfonso XII).
Was. Now He is lives in Georgia with his son David. Other family member still Spain.

I haven't seen Pricess Iren's photo, thanks for this.

Benjamin 07-05-2007 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elsa M. (Post 636694)
Prince George Bagration lives in Spain and is married to the Spanish Infanta María de las Mercedes (granddaughter of Alfonso XII).

I think that it was George's father, Irakly, who was married to the Infanta.

Iverieli 07-05-2007 09:19 PM

Hi Benjamin,

Irakli Bagrationi has four wifes:

1. Maria Belaiev
2. The Noble Maria Antonietta Pasquini
3. H.R.H. Princess Señora Infanta Doña de las Mercedes Borgias de Baviera de Borbón
4. H.R.H. Doña María del Pilar Pascual Roig

The third wife maybe The Infanta Maria de las Mercedes, because George Bagrationi also had first wife Doña María de las Mercedes de Zornoza y Ponce de Leon and I think she is not Alfonso XII's granddaughter.

Warren 07-06-2007 07:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iverieli (Post 636981)
The third wife maybe The Infanta Maria de las Mercedes, because George Bagrationi also had first wife Doña María de las Mercedes de Zornoza y Ponce de Leon and I think she is not Alfonso XII's granddaughter.

Yes, Irakly's 3rd wife was the Infanta. Two lines of descent:

Alfonso XII > Infanta Maria Teresa > Infanta Maria de las Mercedes married 1946 Prince Irakly Bagration-Moukhransky > George

and

Isabel II > Infanta Maria de la Paz > Infante Fernando (Prince Ferdinand of Bavaria) > Infanta Maria de las Mercedes > George

Elsa M. 07-06-2007 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Benjamin (Post 636964)
I think that it was George's father, Irakly, who was married to the Infanta.

Yes, you're right, sorry. It was indeed his father the one who married Infanta María de las Mercedes (*1911 +1953). I mixed them, because George's first wife was also named María de las Mercedes de Zornoza y Ponce de Leon (*1942).

Georgian 07-08-2007 01:02 AM

Hi all!
I'm glad to meet with royalists well informed about my motherland and it's history.
I hope, we, the Georgian royalists, find many new friends here.


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:08 AM.

Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2014
Jelsoft Enterprises