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emily62_1 08-08-2005 12:53 AM

Prince Alfred, Duke of Edinburgh (1844-1900) and Grand Duchess Marie (1853-1920)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by lashinka2002
I'll be back with more info soon. Hope you all enjoy!

thanx for the pix and infos, it's a pity the splendid wed pix can't be saved, as they belong to Q&A Museum. I can't c Missy as bridesmaid, she was 1 of the beautiful Connaught girls, who later became Queen of Bulgaria, her name was Elizabeth, how come she is not there, I also like Victoria Melita, or Ducky. The sis of Edinburgh, daughters of Prince Arthur, were all so pretty, it was her own mum, P. Maria, who was a Russian Princess, daughter of Czar Alexander II.

Warren 08-08-2005 01:13 AM

Who do you mean?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by emily62_1
thanx for the pix and infos, I can't c Missy as bridesmaid, she was 1 of the beautiful Connaught girls, who later became Queen of Bulgaria, her name was Elizabeth, how come she is not there,

Missy, aka Princess Marie, was one of the Edinburgh daughters. She married Crown Prince Ferdinand of Romania and became the flamboyant and very interesting Queen Marie.

There were two Connaught daughters: Margaret who married Crown Prince Gustav Adolf of Sweden; and Patricia who became Lady Patricia Ramsay.

There have been no Elizabeths in the Wettin Bulgarian Royal House.
Elisabeth, aka Carmen Sylva, the loopy Queen of Romania (Ferdinand's mother), was born a Princess of Wied.
.

emily62_1 08-08-2005 07:05 AM

sure, she was 1 of the Edinburgh kids whose mum was a russian Princess, daughter of Czar Alexander II- her bro alfred commited suicide.

emily62_1 08-08-2005 07:06 AM

1 of the QV's granddaughter married a first cousin, a Connaught, who was she, my memory is so bad.....

Warren 08-09-2005 05:46 AM

Arthur & Alexandra
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by emily62_1
1 of the QV's granddaughter married a first cousin, a Connaught, who was she? my memory is so bad....
The Duke of Connaught's only son, Prince Arthur (who predeceased his father in 1938) married in 1913 Her Highness Princess Alexandra, Duchess of Fife, elder daughter of the 1st Duke of Fife and his wife Louise, Princess Royal, who was the eldest daughter of King Edward VII.

Arthur (jnr) was a grandson of Queen Victoria, and Alexandra was a great-granddaughter, thus they were first cousins once removed (I think!). To make it even more confusing, their only child, Prince Alastair of Connaught, could be considered a second cousin to both his parents, and a second cousin once removed to himself (depending on which side of the family you are viewing this from).

Have I got that right? Welcome to the wonderfully complex world of Royal Genealogy!
.



emily62_1 08-09-2005 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by emily62_1
sure, she was 1 of the Edinburgh kids whose mum was a russian Princess, daughter of Czar Alexander II- her bro alfred commited suicide.

I read Alfred jr. commited suicide 'cos of he wed a girl his family did not think she was suitable for him, can u tell me the whole story, how old was he ? who was the woman ? His father also died young, in 1900, of what, do u know about fun quiz trivia ? u would score 10/10 each test ! My average score is 7/10.

tiaraprin 08-10-2005 01:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by emily62_1
I read Alfred jr. commited suicide 'cos of he wed a girl his family did not think she was suitable for him, can u tell me the whole story, how old was he ? who was the woman ? His father also died young, in 1900, of what, do u know about fun quiz trivia ? u would score 10/10 each test ! My average score is 7/10.

You are correct. For many years the death of Alfred Jr was covered up as tuberculosis in 1900. According to David Randall in Royal Misbehaviour: Crazy Kings and Kooky Queens:

Various royal biographers steadfastly maintained this version of events and if mention was made of him at all in family writings, it consisted of the obliquest of references. His sister, Marie, for instance wrote in her memoirs, "his death . . was a staggering blow. We were all so healthy, sto strong, illness was an unknown thing in our family.' Yet what perhaps even Marie did not now was that Alfred was no more a consumptive than she was. What killed ws not tuberculosis but a set of circumstances regarded as so shameful that it was hushed up and kept secret for the next 80 years. . . . . It seems soon after joining the army, Alfred began to go astray, drinking wildly and falling under the spell of several of the doxies who hung around the barracks. Then at the age of 23, he married an Irishwoman called Mabel Fitzgerald in Potsdam. . . . (His Mother) was especially scathing and the ensuing disputes made Alfred, a sensitive person at the best of times, accutely depressed. As the recriminations wore on, his condition was hardly improved by the onset of venereal disease that he had contracted some years before. The crunch came after a particularly violent row with his mother. Alfred took a pistol and shot himself. The suicide bid failed-for the time being- but left him seriously wounded. . . . Despite the objections of doctors, who said that if Alfred was moved he would not survive the week, the Duchess ordered him to be sent away. He was taken to Meran in the Tyrol and within a fortnight he was dead. (pp 23-24)

His father, the Duke of Saxe Coburg Gotha and Edinburgh, died of cancer and of drink in 1900.

Sean.~ 08-10-2005 06:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tiaraprin
His father, the Duke of Saxe Coburg Gotha and Edinburgh, died of cancer and of drink in 1900.

And his mother in 1920 from a heart attack, after allegedly receiving a letter addressed to "Frau Coburg". The last straw for the high and mighty Marie,or so the legend goes.

emily62_1 08-11-2005 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean.~
And his mother in 1920 from a heart attack, after allegedly receiving a letter addressed to "Frau Coburg". The last straw for the high and mighty Marie,or so the legend goes.

what's the story about " Frau Coburg" ?

CarolinaLandgrave 09-03-2006 02:35 PM

The Previous Duke and Duchess of Edinburgh, Prince Alfred and Grand Duchess Marie
 
Hello everyone.....
This post is going to have two inquiries (although I am thinking that I maybe should include part of in the several threads on titles).

Could anyone recommend any good reading and sources for info on Prince Alfred, Duke of Edinburgh and (later) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha and his VERY interesting wife, Marie - formerly HIH the Grand Duchess Marie Alexandrovna of Russia.

Alfred and (particularly) Marie are very interesting to me and I would love to learn more about them and their beautiful daughters.

But on the title note.... When Alfred died, the Edinburgh dukedom went back to the Crown, correct? Alfred and Marie had but one son who committed suicide..... but the Duchy of Coburg passed to Aflred's nephew (eventually) after being passed over by his brother and another nephew.
Was this because the title was not associated with a sovereign state?
Could the Coburg's petition for the Edinburgh title back?

Thanks so much!!!!!!

BeatrixFan 09-03-2006 02:37 PM

Well, the Coburgs couldn't ask for their Edinburgh title back because it went back to the Crown, the reason being there were no other legitimate heirs to the title. When it was given to Prince Philip, it was a new creation and nothing to do with the previous creation.

CarolinaLandgrave 09-03-2006 02:39 PM

Thank you!!!
Thats kind of long the lines of what I assumed, but I wanted to ask.

magnik 09-03-2006 04:01 PM

About Duke of Edinburgh title http://www.e-paranoids.com/d/du/duke_of_edinburgh.html

First creation 1726:subsidiary titles - Marquess of the Isle of Ely, Earl Eltham, Viscount Launceston, Baron Snowdon
- Prince Frederick (1707-1751)
- Prince Georg (1738-1820) - future George III
Dukes of Gloucester & Edinburgh 1764: titles Earl of Connaught (Irish Peerage)
- Prince William Henry (1743-1805)
- Prince William Frederick (1776-1834)

Second creation 1866: titles - Earl of Kent, Earl of Ulster
- Prince Alfred (1844-1900)

Third creation 1947: titles - Earl of Merioneth, Baron Greenwich
Prince Philip (1921*)

After him probably will be Prince Edward, Earl of Wessex. But "he will not inherit the title from his father. Like any normal dukedom, the present Dukedom of Edinburgh passes to the heirs-male of the first Duke. That means that when the present Duke dies, the dukedom will be inherited by his eldest son, Prince of Wales. If The Prince of Wales is not yet king when this occurs, he will be Duke of Edinburgh until he ascends the throne, at which point the title will merge with the crown; if The Prince of Wales is already King when he inherits the title, it will merge immediately. Only at that point would the title be available for regrant to the Earl of Wessex.

Here you go Dukes of Edinburg tree
http://geneweb.inria.fr/roglo?lang=e...265;t5=5;lim=6

and list of DoE
http://geneweb.inria.fr/roglo?lang=e...p=of+Edinburgh

About Alfred and Maria
http://www.e-paranoids.com/a/al/alfr...urg_gotha.html ;
http://www.etoile.co.uk/forum/viewto...93fa5e9bdc703e

CarolinaLandgrave 09-03-2006 08:50 PM

Thanks so much for the AWESOME links!
Marie is a most intersting person!!
In some strange way... she reminds me a great deal of her sister-in-law, Grand Duchess Marie Pavlovna.

Warren 09-04-2006 08:37 AM

Here are two extracts from "Queen Victoria's Descendants" by Marlene A Eilers, Rosvall Royal Books 1997

Grand Duchess Marie of Russia, Duchess of Edinburgh, Duchess of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha

Accustomed to being the centre of the stage as the Tsar's only daughter, on her marriage to Victoria's second son, Marie found that she was expected to yield precedence not only to the Princess of Wales, but also to the Queen's five daughters. Outraged, the young Duchess of Edinburgh demanded precedence immediately after the Queen herself as the daughter of an Emperor. The Queen indignantly refused, and although following a visit to England by the Tsar, the matter was resolved, Marie never really adjusted to life in England.

Prince Alfred of Edinburgh (Young Alfred)

Young Alfred was only 24 when he died, and little has been written about him. Separated from his sisters, he was a lonely young man with a father frequently absent, and a mother who was hard to please and unable to show her feelings. The most significant event in the manner of his short life was his death, across which a veil of reticence has been drawn. In her memoirs, his sister Marie [Queen of Romania] simply relates that his health broke down; other writers have attributed his death to consumption [tuberculosis]. The Times announced that Prince Alfred's death was due to a tumor, but it seems clear that...he shot himself.

Unfortunately, he could not have chosen a more awkward moment for his tragic action, as it occurred in the midst of his parents' silver wedding anniversary celebrations. Though severly wounded, he survived. Angry at so embarrassing an incident occurring when all the family were present, Duchess Marie, against the wishes of the doctors, insisted on having her son moved to Meran, where it was hoped he would recuperate. But the journey proved too much, and young Alfred died alone save for the presence of a doctor and his manservant.

CarolinaLandgrave 09-05-2006 12:37 PM

Thanks Warren.
I have recently found this book and have begun reading it - so far I am very impressed with what I have read.

magnik 09-05-2006 02:25 PM

About Alfred and Marie and their home - Clarence House:
http://www.royal.gov.uk/output/Page2521.asp

CarolinaLandgrave 09-05-2006 09:35 PM

Thanks!!
Thats neat about the Russian Orthodox Chapel! From what I can read, Queen Victoria was not happy that Marie brought a Russian priest with her!
Among other things!!!

blueblood1 10-14-2009 01:55 AM

Hello Royal Forums. I am new here, this is my first post.
Does anyone have information on the marriage of Prince Alfred to Mabel FitzGerald? I have read many differing versions. But, obviously the marriage was recognized by the Royal Marriage Act. Any information would be much appreciated.
With Kind Regards;
BlueBlood1:wave:
I apologize if this post is not in the proper place. Remember I am new here.


I must correct my post about Prince Alfred & Mabel FitzGerald. The marriage was not recognized. I am sorry for the mistake.
Regards;
BlueBlood1

blueblood1 10-14-2009 08:06 PM

Hello; Yes I am a newbie and fiddling my way around here.
Does anyone have any Information on the daughter of Prince Alfred and Mabel FitzGerald, born at Carton House, 24, February 1899 or 1900?
Her name was Irene and born at Carton House in Maynooth(?).
I have read that Kind Edward entitled her the title of Lady, Irene Isabel Victoria Elizabeth Saxe Coburg Gotha. (I may not have all her names in the proper order.)
From what I have found she was sent to the U.S. (circa 1912) by her Mother (Mabel FitzGerlad) to Mabels American family and then married a commoner (Sept. 1914) in Upstate New York. Any information would be of much interest. Thank you.
Regards;
Blueblood1

Roderick 10-15-2009 05:55 PM

The story of Prince Alfred of Edinburgh fathering a daughter has never been verified and is thought to be false.

MarleneKoenig 11-03-2009 01:55 PM

The story is totally false, and concocted by Irene's son Frank Fitzgerald Bush. I wrote about in my book, Queen Victoria's Descendants and more recently in an article on young Affie for European History Journal.
Utter and absolute nonsense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by blueblood1 (Post 1004885)
Hello; Yes I am a newbie and fiddling my way around here.
Does anyone have any Information on the daughter of Prince Alfred and Mabel FitzGerald, born at Carton House, 24, February 1899 or 1900?
Her name was Irene and born at Carton House in Maynooth(?).
I have read that Kind Edward entitled her the title of Lady, Irene Isabel Victoria Elizabeth Saxe Coburg Gotha. (I may not have all her names in the proper order.)
From what I have found she was sent to the U.S. (circa 1912) by her Mother (Mabel FitzGerlad) to Mabels American family and then married a commoner (Sept. 1914) in Upstate New York. Any information would be of much interest. Thank you.
Regards;
Blueblood1

Not thought to be false .. but False ... a total fabrication.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Roderick (Post 1005327)
The story of Prince Alfred of Edinburgh fathering a daughter has never been verified and is thought to be false.


Lumutqueen 11-03-2009 04:02 PM

Alfred only had 6 children, and they were all with his wife. :smile:

1. Hereditary Prince Alfred (15 October 1874 - 6 February 1899)
2. Princess Marie (29 October 1875 - 18 July 1938) married, 10 January 1893, King Ferdinand I of Romania (1865–1927); had issue.
3. Princess Victoria Melita (25 November 1876 - 2 March 1936) married (1), 19 April 1894, Ernst Ludwig, Grand Duke of Hesse and by Rhine; had issue; divorced 21 December 1901
(2) 8 October 1905, the Grand Duke Cyril Vladimirovich of Russia; had issue.
4. Princess Alexandra (1 September 1878 - 16 April 1942) married, 20 April 1896, Prince Ernst of Hohenloe-Langenburg; had issue.
5. Stillborn son 13 October 1879
6. Princess Beatrice (20 April 1884 - 13 July 1966) married, 15 July 1909, Don Alfonso, Infante of Spain, 3rd Duke of Galliera; had issue.

:flowers:

Russophile 11-03-2009 05:14 PM

They should have let Baby Bee marry GDuke Michael. But! If wishes were horses, beggers would ride. . .

Vasillisos Markos 11-23-2009 10:40 PM

Marie's perceived snub by the Queen and other members of the Royal Family developed into a dislike of all things English. After Alfred was posted to Malta, does anyone have any information about how the Royal couple felt about that Mediterranean island and how they were treated by the Maltese?

Russophile 11-25-2009 01:46 AM

:previous:Queen Marie of Roumania's book says that she and the other children had a lovely time. Not so sure about what the parents thought. Don't forget, Marie (the mother) was a Grand Duchess and very senior in Russia but lower down on the totem pole in England and that rankled her quite badly. (This from Queen Marie of Roumania's Memoirs.)

EmpressRouge 11-25-2009 12:22 PM

Most definitely. She was the only surviving daughter, so was her father's favorite child and spoiled rotten.

tyler123 11-30-2009 09:25 PM

Lad Irene & Prince Alfred
 
In response to Marlene Koenigs reply to a post about Lady Irene FitzGerald and Prince Alfred.
My Grandmother was Lady, Irene FitzGerald-Bush. To say that this was concocted by her son Frank.S. FitzGerald-Bush is a bit brash. I lived with my Grandmother at the Family Estate Crom House in Miami, Florida. In the 50’s & 60’s when I was a teenager, and in the 70’s as a young adult Lord Louis Mountbatten had visited us many times, visiting his Cousin Lady Irene. I write this as my Uncle Frank passed away in 1999 and cannot defend himself against the postings here and elsewhere.
In 1980-81 Lady Iris Mountbatten from Toronto, Canada and her son Robin Alexander Bryan also lived with us in Miami.
I remember as a child reading letters from Princess Louise to my Grandmother, Lady Irene. My Grandmother also had received many items from members of the Royal Family, in particular two dolls (as being replicas of the Queen) from Queen Victoria, being more than 120 years of age now they do show the age even though we have attempted to maintain their condition as much as possible. The letters from Princess Louise were damaged in Hurricane Andrew-1992 when Crom House suffered severe Hurricane damage.
In the mid 70’s I lived in Ireland where I attended Trinity College, staying for a period of time with the Guinness family as Desmond has been a family friend, especially to Uncle Frank for more than sixty years. While I was in Ireland I had the honour of the company many times with Lord Louis “Dickie” Mountbatten. I returned to America just a month before Dickie was murdered on his boat. I also visited Carton House in Maynooth where my Grandmother was born. And, I was not treated as a tourist.
The Irish treated me with the utmost respect as they were aware of the Mabel FitzGerald and Prince Alfred issue.
There have been quite a number of Royals who attempted to marry outside the [Royal Marriage Acts of 1772] as did Prince Alfred and Mabel. Their (Alfred & Mabel) marriage was annulled. This does not mean that there was not a child brought into this life through their relationship.
Bee Jordan( a friend of Mr. Bush) & John Van der Kiste communicated with “Uncle Frank” while they were writing “Dearest Affie” in 1984 {page 165 notes the marriage of Alfred and Mabel and it being annulled} They also mentioned Frank S. FitzGerald-Bush in their page of Acknowledgments for the people who helped them in gathering information for the book.
As most of us know marriages outside of the Royal Marriage Acts are frowned upon by the Royals and dismantled.
Mabel FitzGerald had relatives in America and sent her daughter to live with them as during WWI her safety may have been compromised as being of the Saxe Coburg-Gotha name and its German heritage. {As King George changed the Battenburgs to Mountbatten}.
At my Grandmothers funeral Queen Elizabeth sent a four foot Wreath of Roses and a note of sympathy on Buckingham Palace Stationary, as well as flowers and sympathy note from King Juan Carlos of Spain.
It seems to me, and any prudent person that the Queen would most likely not be concerned of the passing of “a nobody”. The Queen also sent her sympathies on the Palace Letterhead when she was notified of the passing of Lady Irenes’ eldest son Mr. FitzGerald-Bush in 1999.
We are also aware that the Royals try to avoid any scandals. Lady Irene was real, and not Concocted... dig deep and you will find the truth. Thank you for taking the time to read this.

tyler123 11-30-2009 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarleneKoenig (Post 1014256)
Not thought to be false .. but False ... a total fabrication.

If it is a total fabrication. Can you show the proof of fabrication?

With all do respect where is your documentation of the fabrication? What did you write in your book that you state. The statement is a bit obscure....did you speak to Mr. Bush about his fabrication?

Zonk 11-30-2009 11:48 PM

I believe the Duchess's dislike for all things English extended to George V, who was in love with Marie of Edinburgh. Though Marie didn't fancy George, they did remain close cousins and good friends. I think George V would have bored Marie in later in life.

Just imagine how different history would have been in Marie was Queen Consort instead of Mary. Let's see...troublesome sons...which would you perfer...King Carol of Romania or Edward VIII of the United Kingdom. I am going to go with Edward VIII because you had George VI who understood the word duty.

Connie Cutmantle 12-01-2009 11:12 PM

Wow Tyler 123 what an absolutely fascinating account! Thank you very much indeed for taking the time to share your family memories with us! Nevertheless how did your grandmother come to use the style of Lady Irene? Such a title can only be carried by the legitimate daughter of a Duke, Marquess or Earl! Furthermore your grandfather was not a Peer, Knight or the son of a Duke or Marquess was he?

I do not know if you are aware....but Marlene is one of the foremost authors and experts on Queen Victoria's descendants. Her knowledge is encyclopaedic. I think that Marlene feels it is her duty to question all claims of descent from Queen Victoria....to be honest I have long admired Marlene as she has fearlessly 'outed' several claimants and pretenders over the years and is generally regarded with deep respect by many! Sometimes I feel like I am one of her acolytes....but to be honest......Marlene's methods are those of a qualified Historian who seeks factual evidence and primary sources in all instances such as this one involving a child born out of a liaison between Young Affie and Mabel Fitzgerald!

I know that Marlene hardly needs me to stick my oar in on her behalf....but I just felt impelled to add my opinion! Here is a link to an article that may have been authored by 'our' Marlene!

RootsWeb's WorldConnect Project: Descendants of Queen Victoria

Source 6 explains the story of Affie and Mabel's weddings etc!

Vasillisos Markos 12-01-2009 11:20 PM

The Duchess might not have liked George but his cousin Marie, although she got along with her mother the Duchess, probably would never have married him regardless of her mother's feelings, but Marie was very fond of George V and they remained good friends through the years.

And from what I've read, Marie, or Missy as she was known to the family, believed, like Queen Mary, that royal duty trumped personal desire. Queen Marie was very upset with her son's attitude towards throne and country and Carol ended up treating Marie badly in her dying days and was horrible towards his sisters.

tyler123 12-02-2009 02:19 AM

Connie, if I may call you Connie, you spelled encyclopedic wrong.
All I say here is of the utmost respect, as much as it can be... [just defending people who Marlene is saying are telling falsehoods.]
Well, I must assume that Marlene is the {god of all Royal History.} There are many Authors, American & European who write about the Royal Families of Europe. Since there are many Authors on this subject, I have not become aware of an official rating as to which one is "PERFECT" and Number "1".
Is she in the service of the British Royal Family? Are her books Authorized by the Royal Family? {She is an American it seems}.
As I said previously the deceased" cannot speak for themselves".
Lord Louis Mountbatten was my friend and confident for more than 25 years, since I was child, and, my relative. There was not a reason for him to manufacture to me his {and my} family history. And his Cousin Lady Iris either.
According to Marlene he, {Lord Mountbatten} must have been full of it...as well as Bee Jordan and Mr. John Van der Kiste, also personally known to me, King Juan Carlos of Spain, and Desmond Guinness (who I do not want to bring him into this trife) a family friend for more than 60 years.
As I have only told the facts of my life as told to me by members of the Royal Families and their close confidents.
I am aware Marlene does not think much of the Mountbattens from other sources on this world wide web and persons I know.
The Queen acknowledged Lady Irene, this I know, I informed her of the passing of Lady Irene by telephone. I would properly think she would know more of her family than a host of Authors. Yes, I will admit you may not have found the papers that are said to not exist, but if look in the proper places they are there.
And, we all know the Royal family has always kept their misgivings under wrap, so to speak. If Lord Mountbatten were alive today this cloud of mystery could be cleared away and the truth would shine.
And, I have researched Marlene, Authors have opinoins which sometimes are misguided. I have found she has made quite a few persons place her number one on their list (not the good list).
The following is an excerpt from a letter that will be placed as well as the family line dating back to Royalty of the 16 Century on the web site www.thebooklord.com.
...In the case of Mabel FitzGerald, one must accept that her marriage to Prince Alfred was a valid one, since it was never in court ruled otherwise. The titles granted her by the Duke of Saxe-Coburg & Gotha, and the peerage granted to her by Queen Victoria, bestow legitimacy on both the marriage and it's issue. That Prince Alfred's widow refused to employ either the German titles or the British peerage given to her, preferring instead to style herself Countess of Ulster, while admirable in itself, is perhaps the cause of the uncertainty which subsequently arose as to her status and that of her child by Prince Alfred......As to the status of Prince Alfred's daughter and her proper style, she became, by letters patent issued by H.M. King Edward VII, in 1905, a Princess of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, though she appears to never to have employed this style. The only published document in this matter remains that of H.M. King George V, the Royal Warrant granting to Prince Alfred's daughter "the style of Lady Irene FitzGerald, with precedence before the marchionesses of England."... Your Majesty could solve the problems of this lady's ambivalent status (which is ambivalent only in the public eye) by proclaiming her proper style to be
H.R. Princess Irene, Marchioness of Celbridge and Athy....That ill-natured gossip and unfortunate comments in the press have been encountered in this mater, as Your Majesty has suggested, fully within Your Majesty's power to set right, though I am reminded that the unfortunate results of such false reports are perhaps impossible to correct. "False statements like feathers, once scattered are not easily collected.".....
My Uncle Frank S. FizGerlad-Bush ( he acquired the surname FitzGerald as required by the FitzGerlad family as Irene's first son was to attached it to his surname) was a well respected Author, Historian,Lecturer, Teacher, a man of integrity who would not shame himself with an untruth no matter the harm to himself. This I Know to be fact As well as long time family friends.
I, being well respected in the Entertainment Industry(must retain my integrity) and being raised by my Royal Grandmother (no matter the issues raised here) was instilled as never to speak a falsehood, the "Truth is the proper means of Life."
I do apologize for being longwinded, but, these words I feel must defend, the Memory of Lord Mountbatten, Frank S. FitzGerald-Bush, Irene Victoria Alexandra Louise Isabel FitzGerlad.
By the way Mabel FitzGeralds' Father was Lord Charles FitzGerald, so there is a Royal title there...I gladly would like any & all comments you may have.
Thank You For Taking The Time To Read This Post.

tyler123 12-02-2009 03:54 AM

1 Attachment(s)
I found this article dated 1987 talking about the Descendants of Queen Victoria. I did not write the article, but the mistakes that were made shows the author was very careless with her research. Sorry but page 2 would not scan but it basically says she can't follow simple genealogical practice of listing first all sons and then all daughters and that the book was overpriced and her claims to perfection are wholly without foundation. Again these are not my words they were found in your book along with a letter written to my Uncle from you. I will post that tomorrow because it is late.

Connie Cutmantle 12-02-2009 04:22 AM

I posted encyclopaedic as it is as acceptable as encyclopedic according to the Oxford Dictionary! It is amazing that yet again the Fitzgerald dynasty is being drawn into another 'cloak and dagger' disinherited, identity changing/swapping intrigue! It was bad enough with the Duke consigned to a mental hospital/brothers fleeing to America to escape inheriting titles and so on! I don't mean to be rude....but unless you can provide hard evidence tyler123....one has to be a little skeptical!

The title of Lord Charles Fitzgerald does not denote a 'Royal' title as you claim....it denotes a gentleman of noble parentage....not Royal parentage! You say that Mabel's father was Lord Charles Fitzgerald by which I assume you are implying that this Lord Charles Fitzgerald was in fact the same man bearing that name Lord Charles Fitzgerald (1859 - 1928) a son of the 4th Duke and Duchess of Leinster! If this is indeed you claim I must point out that this real Lord Charles Fitzgerald did indeed have a daughter called Mabel but it is recorded that she was born in 1891!:ermm: Thus she can not be the mother of Irene Fitzgerald Bush can she?

:ermm:Perhaps I have discovered a real but wrong Lord Charles Fitzgerald who by some amazing coincidence also had a daughter called Mabel! I do wander which Lord Charles Fitzgerald you are referring too....I did scuttle off and checked my copy of G.E Cockayne's Compete Peerage too and could not find another Lord Charles Fitzgerald....could you enlighten us please?

To be honest with you tyler123 I am at a complete loss as to what you are trying to say with regards to your grandmother's status. With regards to marriage to Queen's Victoria's grandson Affie, the Queen would have had to grant her formal consent to marriage, which would have been passed in written form through a meeting of the Privy Council and would thus be published! If however Queen Victoria declined, Affie could have married and this marriage would have been null and void. However, Affie could have waited until his twenty fifth birthday and then declared his intentions to the Privy Council and after a year married. Therefore either way....Affie could not have contracted a marriage which permitted his wife or daughter to carry his British titles.....as for his German titles......the stringent rules of morganatic marriage would have prevented Mabel or a child from rights to carry any titles other than those granted to them by the reigning Grand duke of Saxe Coburg and Gotha or some other German Sovereign.

As has been pointed out all styles, precedence and peerages are published in a gazette regularly in Britain. It appears that there are no records of an Irene being granted the style of Princess in 1905 nor in 1917 of an Irene Fitzgerald being given the style and precedence of a Lady with precedence before Marchionesses! Where are the gazetted declarations of these grants, why were they not published? I do hope that the Mods here will allow this fascinating conversation to continue.....maybe it should be moved to it's own special claimants thread!!!! I am finding it all rather enthralling!

tyler123 12-02-2009 05:03 AM

Do you have access to the gazette you speak of? Second your friend of perfection Marlene had written my Uncle in 1982 asking for information, and admitted in the letter that she was aware that Mable Fitzgerald was the mother of Lady Irene, and was born at Carton House in Ireland. My Uncle was a real genealogist and historian and was doing research before your friend even knew how to write. We will post the letter tomorrow. I have probably 30 boxes of papers to go through and what I have found so far is, proving to me that what my family said to me was true. Did you read the attachment above? About all the mistakes that were made in the book, Queen Victoria's Descendants. You should read it. Good talking to you have a good night, or good day I get confused with the time difference.

Warren 12-02-2009 10:19 AM

The Forums is not here to provide a platform for any person to lay out their claims of royal descent.

Over the years we have had more than our fair share of bogus claimants and royal relatives, the most recent being an alleged descendant of a Romanov Grand Duke just a month ago.

Members who wish to publicise or advance such claims should use another arena in which to do so by creating their own website or by publishing their own book.

Warren
TRF Administrator

Russophile 12-02-2009 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vasillisos Markos (Post 1025800)

And from what I've read, Marie, or Missy as she was known to the family, believed, like Queen Mary, that royal duty trumped personal desire. Queen Marie was very upset with her son's attitude towards throne and country and Carol ended up treating Marie badly in her dying days and was horrible towards his sisters.

Just a nit picky point here, you might want to clarify your Marie's. There was Grand Duchess Marie/Marie of Edinburgh, Empress Marie/Dagmar, Marie Nicholievna, Marie Pavlos, Marie Vladmiorovitch, Marie of Roumania. . .yeah. There were a lot of Marie's. . . :biggrin:

Vasillisos Markos 12-03-2009 12:19 AM

Sorry for the confusion, Russophile.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vasillisos Markos (Post 1025800)
The Duchess might not have liked George but his cousin Marie, although she got along with her mother the Duchess, probably would never have married him regardless of her mother's feelings, but Marie was very fond of George V and they remained good friends through the years.

Duchess refers to Marie, Duchess of Edinburgh and the mother of Queen Marie of Rumania.

And from what I've read, Marie, or Missy as she was known to the family, believed, like Queen Mary, that royal duty trumped personal desire. Queen Marie was very upset with her son's attitude towards throne and country and Carol ended up treating Marie badly in her dying days and was horrible towards his sisters.

The Duke and Duchess of Edinburgh's daughter, Marie, was known as Missy to the family and grew up to become Queen of Rumania. Inasmuch as the Duchess of Edinburgh never was a crowned head of state, Queen Marie refers to the Duchess' eldest daughter. Again, sorry about the confusion.

Katrianna 12-03-2009 01:19 AM

Thank you Warren.

Russophile 02-27-2010 03:52 AM

Enough has been written by Alix. :ermm: I just put on hold a book on Ducky: A Fatal Passion: The Story of Victoria Melita By John Michael Sullivan. I find her fascinating.
I read in Marie of Roumania's book that the Melita came from Malta where they where when she was conceived, or born?? Feel free to correct me here.

MAfan 02-27-2010 07:16 AM

She was born in Malta, where Prince Alfred was stationed as Navy officer.

jonnydep 02-27-2010 09:04 PM

Suggested books:
Princess Victoria Melita, Grand Duchess Cryil of Russia : by John Van Der Kiste, which was published in 1991.
btw the same author also published the following ....Dearest Affie : Alfred, Duke of Edinburgh, Queen Victoria's second son... in 1984.
both books are considered to be good read's .....;)

Warren 03-02-2010 03:48 AM

The discussion of Queen Marie has been moved to the King Ferdinand I & Queen Marie of Romania thread.

CarolinaLandgrave 03-02-2010 09:39 AM

Jonny, I found the book on Amazon.
Does it give any insight (curiosity is killing the cat) on Duchess Marie's opinions of the marriages of Ernie & Victoria Melita and Kirill & Victoria Melita....? As she was so opposed to Missy marrying the future King George V - a first cousin!
As much as Duchess Marie liked being top dog, I would have though she would have foamed at the mouth to have a daughter who was Queen of England! Even though she herself despised England and took of to Germany as soon as Alfred succeeded to the ducal throne in Coburg.

Marengo 03-02-2010 10:25 AM

I have Vanderkiste's book as well, but I haven't read it yet. Although his books are easy to read, I always find them rather short and not too 'deep'. He usually does not do too much research in the archives either (I suppose that is what makes him more productive than most royalty authors) and he makes a - very readable- fusion of already existing books and articles. But considering there are no other books available it will do.

I always heard that she was named 'Melita' for Malta, but how is that since the names are somewhat simular but not the same in Englsih at least.

EmpressRouge 03-02-2010 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CarolinaLandgrave (Post 1056115)
As much as Duchess Marie liked being top dog, I would have though she would have foamed at the mouth to have a daughter who was Queen of England! Even though she herself despised England and took of to Germany as soon as Alfred succeeded to the ducal throne in Coburg.

Well, I think the romance blossomed during George's navy days, when his brother Albert Victor was still alive. Thus, no one would have thought Princess Marie would become the future Queen of England (just married to a navy-career second son like her mother).
Being one of Queen Victoria's most charming and beautiful granddaughters (along with Ella and Ena) and possessing such regal lineage (granddaughter of Queen Victoria and Tsar Alexander II), Marie seemed destined to be Queen/Empress of a more prestigious throne. It was surprising that Marie "settled" for a upstart Balkan kingdom of Romania, all due to Duchess Marie's hatred of the British court that "was not good enough for a Grand Duchess."

CarolinaLandgrave 03-02-2010 03:59 PM

I totally understand the Duchess Marie not thinking that England's throne was not "not good enough for a Grand Duchess" issue... even though she herself married, like you stated, a second son - of the British monarch, no doubt. However, since Marie could not marry the Czar (as Orthodoxy forbids such marriage and Nicky was head over heals in love with Alix.... and the Kaiser was already married and had children arriving that were close to Alfred and Marie's in age.... what kingdom or empire was there for her to affiance Missy in marriage to?? In my humble opinion, which there seems to be some issues with and with my posts as well, Duchess Marie would have still found the British Empire far more worthy than, like you said, the "upstart" Romania. Even if the marriage was to a "mere" second son. And wonder if she (Duchess Marie) ever entertained the notion of Missy and Eddy? Queen Victoria was at one time tried to push one granddaughter towards him...
Just a few ideas that popped into my head. Thanks EmpressRouge

EmpressRouge 03-02-2010 06:42 PM

Good point, CarolinaLandgrave! I guess when it comes to royalty, no how big of a catch a princess is, there's always a problem with supply. If one just wanted to marry rich, there's almost an endless supply. But royals, especially kings are very, very limited.

I think Marie Alexandrovna and her sister-in-law Maria Pavlova (wife of Vladimir) both had very snobby attitudes, proud to be Grand Duchesses (although MP's own Reuss lineage wasn't that impressive) and tried to steer their daughters into grand matches (MA had better luck, churning out a Queen and Grand Duchess). It seemed ironic that they emphasized their lineage so much when MA and Vladimir's mother, Marie of Hesse, was almost certainly the illegitimate daughter of Wilhelmine of Baden and her husband's employee.

It turns out the trait for many Russian-born Grand Duchesses to be snobby (think Maria Alexandrovna and Elena Vladimirovna) had a source, Tsar Nicholas I. According to Prince Michael of Greece's book, Nicholas was the one who began instilling the notion that the Russian court and empire was superior to all others (and had his wife Charlotte of Prussia dress and be painted wearing tradition Russian court dress) and that notion traveled with his daughters when they married. Along with pride, all Grand Duchess married with large dowries and impressive jewels (which is how Luxembourg, Hesse, Holland and Greece have some splendid pieces); when his sister Anna Pavlova, Queen of the Netherlands lost all her Russian jewels in a palace fire, Nicholas promptly ordered replicas of the entire collection.

CarolinaLandgrave 03-02-2010 06:52 PM

Agreed... I think if you look up Grand Duchess in the dictionary, you'd see a picture of Marie Edinburgh and Meichen! And, bless her heart, Meichen would have never achieved such if she hadn't married up! At least Marie Edinburgh was truly a Grand Duchess (with the sketchy lineage on the Hesse side... seeing as Marie's grandfather may not have been so "Grand" a figure as the Grand Dule Louis II of Hesse!

EmpressRouge.... I had a thought, wonder why if Marie Edinburgh considered Willy and Dona's eldest son?? Crown Prince Wilhelm was just a few years Missy's junior... and like herself (Marie E), an Imperial and Royal Highness!!

snowflower 03-02-2010 07:20 PM

:previous: That's an interesting thought CarolinaLandgrave about a mariage to Crown Prince Willem but I really doubt Willy would have let his son and heir to the Prussian throne get married to a British Princess even if Marie Alexandrovna had cast a spell on his son in order to marry one of her daughters... Besides, the bride picked for him had to be x rayed by many, many people, and I doubt that any of Marie's daughters (who were very romantic and free minded and would always do exactly the thing they wished and nothing else) would have passed the test:biggrin:.

Warren 03-03-2010 10:14 AM

Courtesy of Wikipedia Grandchildren of Victoria & Albert
pic not subject to copyright
Prince Alfred of Edinburgh (1874-1899)

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c3...YoungAffie.jpg

Zonk 03-03-2010 10:54 AM

Marie with Albert Victor would have been a nightmare. Queen Victoria wanted someone for Eddy who was calm, royal and a good influence. Marie was one on a good day (royal) and never the two on another day. In other words...just a little boring. Boring is never been a term I have heard associated with Marie. But she did turn out to be a magnficient Queen...shame about that son though!

Does anyone know about Alfred and Marie's marriage? Was it a good one? Marie having a high opinion of her status and a low one of the British court (even though she married into one) does not give off good vibes. But they definitely had beautiful daughters...I thought there was a book written about them but I might be confusing it with the Hesse daughters (I think it was Coburg something).

I have also found Vanderkiste's books to be quite frothy. Not too detailed with new details. But maybe its just me because I love reading about the subjects and I try to read everything.

Vasillisos Markos 03-03-2010 04:47 PM

:previous:

Wasn't it true that Princess Alice, daughter of Queen Victoria, was instrumental in promoting the alliance of Marie with Prince Alfred? She must have met Marie through her Hesse in-laws.

jonnydep 03-04-2010 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CarolinaLandgrave (Post 1056238)
And wonder if she (Duchess Marie) ever entertained the notion of Missy and Eddy? Queen Victoria was at one time tried to push one granddaughter towards him...

well not Quite correct !!
The Queen had considered two of her granddaughters as a wife for him !
Alicky of Hesse and after she refused him. she tried to push Mossy of Prussia towards Eddy......he refused to consider her.

as for Duchess Marie, ever considering a match between Missy and Eddy. well think again.....she none too happy when his brother Georgie made his tentative proposal of marriage to her and Georgie was far more suitable in his character than his (now dead) brother...what nonsense :whistling:

Russophile 03-04-2010 07:52 PM

:previous:In Queen Marie of Roumania's bio she talked about Georgie, I think there was "something there".
She (Queen Marie) talked extensively about how whenever her mother traveled she had a huge perscription chest that had everything in it. I'll find the link.

Roderick 03-05-2010 04:58 AM

It was Albert Victor who declined to consider Mossy of Prussia not the other way around. Several authors have stated this was because he did not find her physically attractive but that she and her mother would have welcomed the match.

jonnydep 03-05-2010 05:41 AM

:previous:
:eek: I am sorry, you are correct Roderick !! Eddy had refused to consider Mossy :flowers:

MAfan 03-05-2010 11:37 AM

Who was Mossy of the Prussia sisters?

Zonk 03-05-2010 12:19 PM

Mossy was Princess Margaret. Here is a short bio from Wikipedia.

Princess Margaret of Prussia (Margarete Beatrice Feodora) (22 April 1872 – 22 January 1954) was a daughter of Frederick III, German Emperor and Victoria, Princess Royal. She married Prince Frederick Charles of Hesse. In 1926 they became Landgrave and Landgravine of Hesse. She lost three sons in the two World Wars.

-----------------------------------

Some of the Prussian princesses had a somewhat bad reputation from what I have read. No one really wanted to be associated with Wilhem, and I believe another Prussian princess (was it Louise of Sweden) married into another former house and it wasn't a success. Some royal houses weren't interested in trying to wed another one.

Zonk 03-05-2010 12:19 PM

Mossy was Princess Margaret. Here is a short bio from Wikipedia.

Princess Margaret of Prussia (Margarete Beatrice Feodora) (22 April 1872 – 22 January 1954) was a daughter of Frederick III, German Emperor and Victoria, Princess Royal. She married Prince Frederick Charles of Hesse. In 1926 they became Landgrave and Landgravine of Hesse. She lost three sons in the two World Wars.

-----------------------------------

Some of the Prussian princesses had a somewhat bad reputation from what I have read. No one really wanted to be associated with Wilhem, and I believe another Prussian princess (was it Louise of Sweden) married into another former house and it wasn't a success. Some royal houses weren't interested in trying to wed another one.

jonnydep 03-05-2010 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marengo (Post 1056128)
I always heard that she was named 'Melita' for Malta, but how is that since the names are somewhat simular but not the same in Englsih at least.

To my understanding, the Greeks and the Romans called the island Melita !
However the word Malta is derived from the Phoenician word Malat.....
i think all three may had ruled the island at one time or another ! :flowers:

Russophile 03-05-2010 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russophile (Post 1056951)
:previous:In Queen Marie of Roumania's bio she talked about Georgie, I think there was "something there".
She (Queen Marie) talked extensively about how whenever her mother traveled she had a huge perscription chest that had everything in it. I'll find the link.

Here's an excellent description of Marie of Edinburgh by Queen Marie her daughter. It's in "The story of my life: Chapter 5" I've included the link to the whole site as there may be other things TRF readers are interested in.
Queen Marie - Regina Maria of Romania

Warren 03-06-2010 03:05 AM

:previous:
Thanks Russo. I'll just directly post this part. Queen Marie was quite incisive in the analysis of her mother:

Mama's Contradictory Personality

A CURIOUS mixture of tyranny and extraordinary kindness, she could undo at a blow years of patience and tolerance by a sudden hard and often unjustified rebuke, which, one felt, a quite small effort of self-control on her part could have avoided. There was, I think, something of that mysterious Russian irresponsibility in her nature, an elemental exasperation against all things and even against herself, which other nationalities in vain try to understand. There was a fundamental impatience beneath all her virtues, some urge to overthrow, to destroy with open eyes, even what she most appreciated, needed or loved—an impatience quite inexplicable except to those who knew the very basis of her nature, disciplined to the verge of torture by those who brought her up. It was a kind of rending asunder of bonds that were irksome, although, even to herself, she had never admitted that they were.

Mama, more than any other being I have ever known, would cut off her nose to spite her face.

. . . . . . . . . .
Extract from
The Story of My Life Part 5
by Marie, Queen of Romania
The Saturday Evening Post,
13 January 1934

snowflower 03-08-2010 07:16 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Here's a photo of a very young Marie in a Russian court dress I found on Flickr. She was really cute during her teenage years , although she grew up not to be very attractive. In this picture, I first had mistaken for her cousin Olga Konstantinova, so one can say that Marie looked more Romanov than Hessian.

Russophile 03-08-2010 07:22 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Here is Winterhalter's portrait of Marie of Hesse that seems to prove your point Snowflower.
Web Gallery of Art, image collection, virtual museum, searchable database of European fine arts (1000-1850)

EmpressRouge 03-09-2010 07:11 PM

Being Alexander II's only surviving daughter and favorite child, it seemed likely that Maria Alexandrovna could have follow in some of her relatives footsteps and married a royal with few prospects abroad who was willing to live in Russia (on the Tsar's dime). Every generation of Grand Duchesses had one: her great-aunt Catherine Pavlova (Alexander I's favorite sister), her aunt Maria Nikolaevna (Nicholas I's favorite daughter) and her niece Olga Alexandrovna. We know Alexander II was very sad at the prospect of her marrying abroad and Empress Marie did not like Alice of Britain/Hesse's suggestion that GD Marie marry Alice's brother Alfred, probably for the same reason since Marie was her favorite child too. Would Marie have happier in a similar arrangement instead of marrying into the British court? I guess in the end, she managed to become the Duchess consort of Coburg and rule her duchy as she pleased.

CarolinaLandgrave 03-15-2010 08:18 PM

Definitely a marriage that was a first for both countries, obviously..... and coming on the coat-tail of the Crimean War - it still amazes me that it was ever allowed to materialize! QV was never found nor trusting of the Russians.

snowflower 03-15-2010 08:25 PM

Well , that marriage was always a mystery to me. I mean, they went against the wishes of Queen Victoria and Alexander II in order to get married and they weren't even in love with each other........

IloveCP 07-07-2011 07:29 PM

Sad to here that there marriage was not happy.Queen Victoria wanted her children to marry for love.I wonder why they agreed to marry.

EmpressRouge 07-08-2011 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IloveCP (Post 1282844)
Sad to here that there marriage was not happy.Queen Victoria wanted her children to marry for love.I wonder why they agreed to marry.

I've been reading From Splendor to Revolution by Julia P. Gelardi and it gives some insight into why/how the marriage took place. As the spoiled and beloved only surviving daughter of the Tsar, she would have been ensured a large dowry when she married, something not lost on Alfred. But Alexander II did not want her to live outside of Russia and Marie wanted to stay close to her family, so Alfred had pursued Marie for sometime before she agreed to married him. Marie's change of heart probably came from the marital crisis of her parents. By the 1870s, Alexander II had become completely besotted with his mistress, Catherine Dolgorukov. While the Tsar had previous mistresses, this one was particularly intolerable, especially to the Tsar's younger children who were devoted to their mother. Alexander II eventually would move his mistress and their illegitimate children into the Winter Palace and marry her soon after the Tsarina's death, causing great scandal among the family and the court. So Marie might have wanted to escape marry into a foreign court so to escape the escalating family drama.

CyrilVladisla 07-25-2014 10:46 PM

Prince Alfred was the first royal visitor to Australia.
In 1867 he visited Adelaide, Melbourne, Brisbane, and Tasmania.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Iluvbertie (Post 1689709)
And was the victim of an assassination attempt on that tour.

On March 12, 1868 Prince Alfred, during his second visit to Sydney, was attending a fund-raising picnic on the Clontarf beachfront.
He was shot in the back by Henry James O'Farrell.
In April of 1868, O'Farrell was tried and hanged.

Iluvbertie 07-25-2014 10:53 PM

And was the victim of an assassination attempt on that tour.

Warren 08-09-2014 02:41 AM

1 Attachment(s)
:previous:
One lasting outcome of the assassination attempt on Prince Alfred was the establishment of the Royal Prince Alfred Hospital in Sydney, now one of Australia's largest.

The Prince was attending a fund-raising picnic for the Sydney Sailors Home at Clontarf Beach [for locals: Middle Harbour, east of the Spit Bridge] when the Irish would-be assassin shot him in the back, just missing his spine. For the following fortnight his recovery was attended to by six nurses who had been trained by Florence Nightingale.

Within two weeks of the events at Clontarf it was decided that a memorial building should be erected, "to raise a permanent and substantial monument in testimony of the heartfelt gratitude of the community at the recovery of HRH". This led to a public subscription which paid for the construction of the Royal Prince Alfred Hospital.

v Crest of the Royal Prince Alfred Hospital in Sydney

An Ard Ri 10-30-2014 07:09 PM

In profile : Princess Victoria Melita

In profile: the British princess who scandalised the royal family | History Extra

David Smith 01-09-2015 05:31 PM

I corresponded with Frank Fitzgerald-Bush during the 1990's and came to believe the story of his mother's parentage from Prince Alfred of Edinburgh. As tyler123 mentions, it's hard to understand the Bush family's contact with the Mountbatten's, etc. if there wasn't substantial truth to the story.

LadyAlice 09-27-2016 01:50 PM

I've got a couple of questions about him as I don't know much other than what I've come across from reading a books about his siblings and parents.

What did make of his grandchildren and did he ever had a relationship with any of them?

I've heard that he had an obsession with princess Alexandra, can anyone tell me anymore informative about this?

What are his known mistressses and scandals of that kind? Ive read that whilst bertie got told off for Nellie, affie got let off

Curryong 09-27-2016 03:26 PM

Princess Alexandra enchanted just about everyone, including Alfred, when she first arrived in England and then married Bertie, Prince of Wales. She was only 18, young and beautiful and she and Bertie's lifestyle as a young married couple at Marlborough House was a great deal more exciting than hanging around a bereaved and sorrowful Mama at Osborne and Windsor.

Queen Victoria felt she, the sorrowing widow, should be the centre of attention. She didn't like London Society life anyway, and got herself worked up because Alfred (Affie) got on so well with his lovely sister-in-law. She felt he was spending too much time at Marlborough House and groused to Vicky in Prussia that there were dangers in Affie becoming too close to the young couple.

There was never the slightest chance that Alex would have indulged in an affair with her brother in law, but I think that Victoria felt that, like his brother, Affie was showing signs of being a womaniser!

Alfred was in the Royal Navy so was away at sea a great deal. He had an affair with a young unnamed woman in Malta, (as a young unmarried man) and his mother got to hear of it. As far as she was concerned purity in both sexes was everything, and Alfred, who looked like the Prince Consort and had been her favourite child, blotted his copybook for good with her from then on!

Alfred met his grandchildren of course when they came to Coburg. (He went to Romania alone on one occasion after Carol had been born, and also spent time in the South of France with Marie and her family.) He had been quite an absent father to his children because of his naval career, but Marie of Romania later wrote that her father wept when it was time for her to go to be married in Romania. He wasn't keen on the marriage but Marie his wife ruled where their children were concerned.

Of course in the last years of his life Alfred and Marie's marriage was to completely break down in the wake of their only son's tragic death in 1899, (it had not been going well for many years) and he drank really heavily in later life. He died of the same sort of throat cancer as his brother in law Kaiser Friedrich had suffered, so all in all, I don't think he really had strong relationships with his grandchildren, who were all very young at his death in 1900, though I'm sure he saw little Elizabeth of Hesse (Victoria Melita's daughter) more often than the others.

LadyAlice 09-27-2016 05:54 PM

How come affie and Marie never divorced after he retired from the navy? It seemed to me that it was almost over and their children had already grown up

Curryong 09-27-2016 10:24 PM

Royals just never divorced in those days. It was very, very rare and considered a complete disgrace.

I think Ducky and Ernie of Hesse's divorce was the first among Victoria's children/grandchildren/family to divorce ever and they waited until after she died. If any of Victoria's children had contemplated divorce they would have faced the wrath of Khan! Anyway, Marie liked being Duchess of Coburg too much. She would never have participated in anything like a divorce.

CyrilVladisla 09-27-2016 11:17 PM

Upon her marriage to Prince Alfred, Marie had the double style of Her Imperial and Royal Highness. When she resided in England, is this the style she would have been addressed by?

Curryong 09-27-2016 11:44 PM

There was a huge row about her rank and precedence at Victoria's court between the Queen and the Tsar after the marriage, when Marie found she had to give precedence to Alexandra (from insignificant Denmark!) and some of the Queen's daughters. Queen Victoria said she could be called Her Imperial Highness all she liked, but the Royal (the HRH) styling had to come first!

Denville 09-28-2016 01:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curryong (Post 1927392)
Royals just never divorced in those days. It was very, very rare and considered a complete disgrace.

I think Ducky and Ernie of Hesse's divorce was the first among Victoria's children/grandchildren/family to divorce ever and they waited until after she died. If any of her children had contemplated divorce they would have faced the wrath of Khan! Anyway, Marie liked being Duchess of Coburg too much. She would never have participated in anything like a divorce.

No, thtere was IIRC a divorce of Princess Marie Louise.. she and her husband didn't get on and I beleive the marriage was not consummated becuase he was possibly homosexual? He as a ruling prince coudl "give himself a divorce"..
As far as I can remember Victoria was sympathetic over that, becauase she felt it wasn't ML's fault..
But generally speaking yes of course your're right, divorces just didn't happen. Even among upper class people it was very rare unless there had been a big scandal wtih very public infidelity... or serious cruelty...
Royals and upper class couples who didn't get on, just led separate lives..

Denville 09-28-2016 01:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curryong (Post 1927309)
Princess Alexandra enchanted just about everyone, including Alfred, when she first arrived in England and then married Bertie, Prince of Wales. She was only 18, young and beautiful and she and Bertie's lifestyle as a young married couple at Marlborough House was a great deal more exciting than hanging around a bereaved and sorrowing Mama at Osborne and Windsor.


A than the others.

True that Alix was very charming, but I think that Affie did have a crush on her.. ab it more than just finding her charming like everyone did. BUt I am sure it meant nothing.. He just found her attractive and enjoyed being with her and it was all quite harmless. No way would he have ever indulged in anything with his sister in law and Alix hersef was a religious woman and newly married and in love with Bertie..
But I think that Vic under Albert's influence had become a terrible prude and thought it was more serious than it realy was.

Curryong 09-28-2016 01:33 AM

Marie Louise's marriage to Prince Aribert of Anhalt was annulled by her father in law, the Grand Duke. It was done by Royal decree, so it was as if the marriage had never been.

At least Ernie and Duckie of Hesse used the courts of Darmstadt and got a proper divorce decree. However they were both young and wanted to marry again. Aribert wasn't interested (so many rumours about the circumstances surrounding the end of the marriage which apparently wasn't consummated,) and it was against Marie Louise's religious principles to marry again, as she considered her marriage vows binding, poor woman!

Denville 09-28-2016 01:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curryong (Post 1927418)
Marie Louise's marriage to Prince Aribert of Anhalt was annulled by her father in law, the Grand Duke. It was done by Royal decree, so it was as if the marriage had never been.

At least Ernie and Duckie of Hesse used the courts of Darmstadt and got a p!

Well i think that it was still unusual.. even if they didn't marry again, it was still rathter scandalous to get one's marriage ended.. and IIRC it was't a short marriage? But clearly ML still felt it wasnt right for her to remarry, and she was I think afraid of Q Vic's reaction, but the queen was sympathetic..
Vic was capable fo being flexible at times...and I think that mabye without Albert's influence she might have become more tolerant.
As I recall she siad to P Louise that while generaly speaking ti was wrong to live together without marriage, she believed that there were times when it wasnt' possible for a couple to marry but that it wasnt morally wrong...

But Ernest and Duicky had had a proper marriage and had had 2 children, oen still born and one who died in childhood. So I think that an annulment wasnt on.
Perhaps Q Vic might have understood and tolerated a divorce with Ern and VM.. but yes generaly most people just did not get divorces because they were unhappy, only if there was a very serious reason

CyrilVladisla 03-22-2018 05:52 PM

Prince Alfred was a collector of glass and ceramic ware. Upon his demise in 1900, his collection was valued at half a million marks.

Jay Bush 06-07-2019 05:12 PM

Lady Irene FitzGerald
 
Hello;
My GrandMum was Lady Irene FitzGerald-Bush.
If you would like any information on her please email me @ jaybushcomposer@laserdog.com.
I will be happy to veryify any information you would like.
Marelenes' comment that it is not true I can verify for.
I welcome your response.
Regards;
Jay Tyler Bush

Jay Bush 06-07-2019 05:15 PM

Lady Irene
 
Hello again.
All the information you stated in your post is accurate.
Again I will confirm & give you all the information you like.
It is true Prince Alfred did have this daughter with Marie FitzGerald.
Regards;
Jay Tyler Bush


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