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CrownPrinceLorenzo 07-20-2006 01:08 AM

Do male monarchs usually have ordinals even when they're the first?
 
I noticed King Juan Carlos has a "I" even though he's the first "Juan Carlos" King of Spain.

I read that before Queen Elizabeth II, Elizabeth I was just known as Elizabeth.

srivishnu 07-20-2006 01:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrownPrinceLorenzo
I noticed King Juan Carlos has a "I" even though he's the first "Juan Carlos" King of Spain.

I read that before Queen Elizabeth II, Elizabeth I was just known as Elizabeth.

The current British monarch is HM Queen Elizabeth II and the previous queen is known as HM Queen Elizabeth (Elizabeth II's mother) whom later is known as HM Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother upon the death of HM King George VI on 6th February 1952.In order to differentiate both Elizabeth,the current queen is known as HM Queen Elizabeth II upon her ascension to the British throne in 1952.So HM Queen Elizabeth II is the second Elizabeth in the House of Windsor although I am aware that there were Elizabeth I from the House of Tudors.Although the late Queen Mother did not use 'I' in her official name,she is widely known as the first Elizabeth from the House of Windsor and not the first Elizabeth in the English dynasty or perhaps the first in the dynasty of the United Kingdom.The usage of 'I','II' and so on in the English Royal Family is based on protocol and is not used based on personal preference.As a conclusion,I would say that the usage of 'I' by the King of Spain is based on personal preference rather protocol.

Stefan 07-20-2006 02:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrownPrinceLorenzo
I noticed King Juan Carlos has a "I" even though he's the first "Juan Carlos" King of Spain.

I read that before Queen Elizabeth II, Elizabeth I was just known as Elizabeth.

It depend on the Country. In the UK it is only used when there are 2 Monarchs with the same name like in the Case of Elizabeth. The same can be said for the Netherlands where nether Wilhelmina, Juliana or Beatrix has a regnal number. But in Belgium King Baudouin is known as Baudouin I. the same for his grandfather King Albert I. who had the regnal number already before the accession of albert II. Also in Spain it is Juan Caros I. and not Juan carlos.

srivishnu 07-20-2006 02:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stefan
It depend on the Country. In the UK it is only used when there are 2 Monarchs with the same name like in the Case of Elizabeth. The same can be said for the Netherlands where nether Wilhelmina, Juliana or Beatrix has a regnal number. But in Belgium King Baudouin is known as Baudouin I. the same for his grandfather King Albert I. who had the regnal number already before the accession of albert II. Also in Spain it is Juan Caros I. and not Juan carlos.

Yes I agree with you that the usage of the regnal number depends on the country as only the British Royal Family do not do things as they wish.

CrownPrinceLorenzo 07-20-2006 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by srivishnu
The current British monarch is HM Queen Elizabeth II and the previous queen is known as HM Queen Elizabeth (Elizabeth II's mother) whom later is known as HM Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother upon the death of HM King George VI on 6th February 1952.In order to differentiate both Elizabeth,the current queen is known as HM Queen Elizabeth II upon her ascension to the British throne in 1952.So HM Queen Elizabeth II is the second Elizabeth in the House of Windsor although I am aware that there were Elizabeth I from the House of Tudors.Although the late Queen Mother did not use 'I' in her official name,she is widely known as the first Elizabeth from the House of Windsor and not the first Elizabeth in the English dynasty or perhaps the first in the dynasty of the United Kingdom.The usage of 'I','II' and so on in the English Royal Family is based on protocol and is not used based on personal preference.As a conclusion,I would say that the usage of 'I' by the King of Spain is based on personal preference rather protocol.

I wasn't talking about the Queen Mother, whom I refer to as Ms. Elizabeth Bowles-Lyon to avoid confusion. I was referring to Elizabeth from the Tudor Dynasty. Elizabeth I.

Oppie 07-20-2006 12:24 PM

Numbering is not use for Queen Consort. Queen Elizabeth II is the II because of Queen Elizabeth I not because of her mother.

Queen Mary was a consort and was refered to as Queen Mary even though there had been two Queen Mary (Queen Mary I and Queen Mary II)

Usually numbers aren't used until there is a second, third ect... Queen Victoria will be Queen Victoria until a hypothetical situation in which Prince William's daughter becomes Queen Victoria II, then Queen Victoria becomes Queen Victoria I.

From the official site Belgium you can see Baudouin is refered without number http://www.monarchie.be/en/monarchy/history/index.html

From the official site of Spain you can see Juan Carlos is also refered without number http://www.casareal.es/ingles/sm_rey/index.html

so I am not sure who you are refering to when you say that these two men have numbers added. Maybe you can post a link.

CrownPrinceLorenzo 07-20-2006 04:33 PM

OMG, I already said I wasn't referring to Elizabeth Bowles-Lyon(Queen Mother) I said I was referring to Elizabeth Tudor(Elizabeth II).

I asked if MONARCHS (males in particular) if they always ordinals. I know consorts(even male ones) do not have ordinals.

Oppie 07-20-2006 05:02 PM

Quote:

OMG, I already said I wasn't referring to Elizabeth Bowles-Lyon(Queen Mother) I said I was referring to Elizabeth Tudor(Elizabeth II).

I asked if MONARCHS (males in particular) if they always ordinals. I know consorts(even male ones) do not have ordinals.
Um sorry (?) but srivishnu made a point I was talking about that, Yes I know you are talking about male monarchs but another point was brought up in this thread. Captializing makes it seem like you are yelling.

I tried to answer your second part. On both the official Belgium and Spanish site Baudouin and Juan Carlos do not have ordinals. So IMO the answer is no. Unless someone can find another official document that states that Beaudouin, Juan Carlos or another King uses the I.

Avalon 07-20-2006 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrownPrinceLorenzo
OMG, I already said I wasn't referring to Elizabeth Bowles-Lyon(Queen Mother) I said I was referring to Elizabeth Tudor(Elizabeth II).

I asked if MONARCHS (males in particular) if they always ordinals. I know consorts(even male ones) do not have ordinals.

Ordinals are used for the 2nd, 3rd... Monarchs with the same name. The first Monarchs do not use them.
Queen Elizabeth (Tudor) was simply known as Queen Elizabeth (Queen Bess). The ordinals, stricktly speaking, are there to help distinguish the Monarchs. If there was no Monarch with the same name before, it would be really hard to mix him up (who can you mix say Queen Elizabeth I with, if there were no Queen Elizabeths before her).
The ordinals are added after the death, to distinguish form possible future Monarchs with the same name.

CrownPrinceLorenzo 07-20-2006 09:47 PM

But it's different for every country right?

Because King Juan Carlos is Juan Carlos I. So if Leonor became Queen would she be Leonor or Leonor I?

Oppie 07-20-2006 10:15 PM

The official Spanish site does not refer to him as Juan Carlos I, where are you getting that information from ?

Link http://www.casareal.es/ingles/sm_rey/index.html

CrownPrinceLorenzo 07-20-2006 10:24 PM

Ummm, everywhere else on the net.

In the Spanish Consitution he is addressed as such.

Toledo 07-21-2006 12:14 AM

King Juan Carlos I is also our first King with two names. He could have chosen one or the other and continue the previous numerals of Kings named Juan or Kings named Carlos, but he kept his name and started a new tradition.
But Felipe will be King Felipe and the number.

CrownPrinceLorenzo 07-21-2006 12:24 AM

No, I'm asking if it's a guy thing.

When Queen Elizabeth I ruled England in the 1500s, she was just known as Queen Elizabeth.

But King Juan Carlos is King Juan Carlos I. So I'm wondering if males have ordinals regardless if they're the first ones to use the regnal name or not.

Toledo 07-21-2006 12:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrownPrinceLorenzo
No, I'm asking if it's a guy thing.

When Queen Elizabeth I ruled England in the 1500s, she was just known as Queen Elizabeth.

But King Juan Carlos is King Juan Carlos I. So I'm wondering if males have ordinals regardless if they're the first ones to use the regnal name or not.

Oh, I see now. More royal men use a number while for our royal ladies is just implied (like common knowledge?) but not constantly mentioned. Maybe is a guy thing after all!

srivishnu 07-21-2006 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrownPrinceLorenzo
I wasn't talking about the Queen Mother, whom I refer to as Ms. Elizabeth Bowles-Lyon to avoid confusion. I was referring to Elizabeth from the Tudor Dynasty. Elizabeth I.

According to the British Royal Family's web site,Elizabeth from the House of Tudors is known as Elizabeth I.

srivishnu 07-21-2006 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oppie
Numbering is not use for Queen Consort. Queen Elizabeth II is the II because of Queen Elizabeth I not because of her mother.

Queen Mary was a consort and was refered to as Queen Mary even though there had been two Queen Mary (Queen Mary I and Queen Mary II)

Usually numbers aren't used until there is a second, third ect... Queen Victoria will be Queen Victoria until a hypothetical situation in which Prince William's daughter becomes Queen Victoria II, then Queen Victoria becomes Queen Victoria I.

From the official site Belgium you can see Baudouin is refered without number http://www.monarchie.be/en/monarchy/history/index.html

From the official site of Spain you can see Juan Carlos is also refered without number http://www.casareal.es/ingles/sm_rey/index.html

so I am not sure who you are refering to when you say that these two men have numbers added. Maybe you can post a link.

The British Royal Family are different from the other European Royal Families.Never compare the British Royal Family with other European Royal Houses.

srivishnu 07-21-2006 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrownPrinceLorenzo
OMG, I already said I wasn't referring to Elizabeth Bowles-Lyon(Queen Mother) I said I was referring to Elizabeth Tudor(Elizabeth II).

I asked if MONARCHS (males in particular) if they always ordinals. I know consorts(even male ones) do not have ordinals.

Elizabeth from the House of Tudor is known as Elizabeth I not Elizabeth II.Male monarchs do have the regnal number if they choose to use the name of their predecessor as their official name such as George V and George VI.Even HRH Prince Charles of Wales has indicated that he plans to use George VII as his official name once he ascends the British throne upon the death of HM Queen Elizabeth II.But male consorts usually do not use the regnal number in their official name as they are not the monarch but female consorts is allowed to use the regnal number if they want to as they are the consort of the Head of State.

Warren 07-21-2006 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by srivishnu
.. female consorts is allowed to use the regnal number if they want to as they are the consort of the Head of State.

Is there an example of a British Queen Consort using a regnal number? Or non-British Queen Consorts?

Frothy 07-21-2006 11:32 AM

No. A regnal number implies ruling authority which consorts do not have.

Both male and female monarchs do not use a regnal number if they are the first. We in Britain speak of "King John" and "Queen Anne" Not John I and Anne I. Not until they have successors with the same name would they be designated as the first.

It is absolutely wrong to say Elizabeth is called 'II' because she is second in the House of Windsor, houses do not matter and consorts do not matter when it comes to regnal numbers.

There has only been one King Consort of England and that was Phillip II of Spain, King Consort to Mary I.


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