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Perillos 11-18-2003 06:22 PM

Rival Claimants to the French Throne
 
Had a restoration in favor of the Orléanistes been effected, then yes, Madame la Comtesse de Paris would have been Queen of France; had there been a Legitimiste restoration in favor of the Bourbon-Anjou claimant, Madame would have been only the Duchesse d'Orléans. By all accounts Madame was a lovely person in life; however the House of Orléans historically has brought nothing but disgrace to France since "Philippe Egalité", and that husband of hers was no better than his ancestors. Better France should remain a republic than ever have to suffer the princes of Orléans on her throne ever again.

Helena 12-01-2003 06:10 AM

I believe that the Duke of Vendome and the duke of Angoulme are very decent men, so I do not see your problem. Only a small fraction of the french monarchists are so-called 'legitimists'...and even a smaller number are napoleonists...most of the monarchists in france support the house of Orléans! The claims of Don Luis Alphonso are very meagre, and besides that, to suffer a great-grandson of the spanish dictator, fascist and mass-murderer Franco on the french throne would be very unacceptable as well!

Perillos 12-01-2003 04:29 PM

"Philippe Egalité" and his son Louis-Philippe committed crimes against the legitimate kings of France, Louis XVI, Charles X and Henri V. If Orléanistes hold that the crimes of Franco can be visited upon his great-grandson, they had best not look too closely at the past of their own dynasty - nor should they throw stones.

The ancient "lois fondamentales du Royaume" state that the "Ainé des Capetiens" is the King of France, without further qualification beyond order of birth. It has nothing to do with popularity nor the size of one faction versus the other. The "Ainé des Capetiens" is Louis-Alphonse, duc d'Anjou. It matters not where he was born or who his maternal great-grandfather was.

His wedding, tentatively scheduled for next September, should be a glittering affair and a focal point for all French monarchists.

Helena 12-02-2003 03:22 PM

what about the treaty signed when Louis XIV robbed the Habsburgers of their spanish throne & installed his grandson the duke of Anjou there as Felipe V? I believe that the members of this branch of the house of capet lost their claims on the throne of France. Also, the Duc of Berry stated that the only pretenders after his death would be the the house of Orléans

Perillos 12-02-2003 06:35 PM

Are you referring to the Treaty of Utrecht? Louis' grandsons were closer relatives (grandnephews) to the deceased Carlos II of Spain than the Habsburg Archduke Karl, who was a very distant cousin. The Spanish succession laws did not disqualify female inheritance, so the descendants of Marie-Therese, daughter of Felipe IV and consort of Louis XIV were eligible to succeed as closest heirs. The Dauphin and his eldest son the Duc de Bourgogne were the heir-apparent and heir-presumptive of France, so the claim was passed to the third in line in terms of hereditary primogeniture - Philippe, Duc d'Anjou. The French just had to fight a long and costly war in order to secure his rightful succession against the Habsburg usurper.

The terms of the Treaty of Utrecht stated only that one king could not wear both crowns - those of France and Spain - simultaneously. In fact, when it looked as though the infant Louis XV might not survive a life-threatening illness, Felipe V did abdicate the throne of Spain in favor of his son Luis in anticipation of assuming the throne of France. Louis XV recovered, and shortly thereafter Luis of Spain died, whereupon his father reclaimed the Spanish throne. The Treaty of Utrecht, contrary to what the Orléans princes have claimed since 1883, did not compel Felipe V of Spain or his descendants to renounce their claims to France, and they were never written out of the Almanachs du Cour before 1830 (when Louis-Philippe of Orléans usurped the throne) or superceded in the line of succession by the cadet line of Orléans.

And I'm not sure who you are referring to as the Duc de Berry, who was assassinated in 1820 and was the father of the future Henri V. I suspect you are referring here to Henri V by his childhood title, Duc de Bordeaux, which he shed upon becoming Head of the Royal House of France and was subsequently styled "Comte de Chambord" in exile. If this is the case, then the answer is no - Henri V specifically and pointedly did not recognize the Orléans princes as successors. In his will, Henri left his personal effects to his nephew, Robert, Duke of Parma, while he left the symbols of royal authority in his possession, the Collars of the Ordres du Roi, to the new "Ainé des Capetiens" - Carlos, the Duke of Madrid. The Orléans princes have never been able to produce a single shred of evidence to support their contention that Henri V regarded them as next in the order of succession; had he done so, he would have left the Collars to the Comte de Paris instead. At Henri's funeral, the Orléans princes were not given the place of honor in the chapel, but were instead placed behind all the other branches of the House of Bourbon (Spain, Two Sicilies, and Parma). Had Henri recognized the Comte de Paris as his successor, he would have been given the place of honor. As it was, the Comte de Paris presumptuously announced Henri's death to the European courts, assuming a function that was not his to carry out.

The only advantage the Orléans princes has to advance their claims is the support of a majority of French monarchists who prefer them because they have lived in France since 1950. In terms of legal rights, they have none. Time and time again they have tried to assert their rights while denying the rights of the elder line in French courts, and each time they have failed.

"L'Ainé des Capetiens c'est le roi de France..."

Perillos 01-07-2004 08:48 PM

The headship of the Royal House of France is disputed; to many, Madame la Comtesse de Paris was simply the de jure Duchesse d'Orléans. The Orléans line is the least senior of all the surviving lines of the House of Bourbon, though many consider all those lines senior to it to have forfeited all claims to the throne of France. The debate has been going on since the death of France's last legitimate monarch, Henri V, in 1883. Henri, called the Comte de Chambord during his long years of exile, willed the grand collars and other insignia of state belonging to the "Ordres du Roi" not to the Orléans claimant, but to the Duke of Madrid, the next senior Bourbon in terms of male primogeniture. "Legitimistes" today still consider the claim to France's throne to properly rest in the Spanish branch with Don Luis Alfonso de Borbon y Martinez Bordiu, whom they consider to be HRH Louis Alphonse of France, Duc d'Anjou, or "Louis XX" of France and Navarre.

tiaraprin 06-09-2004 12:56 AM

Upon reading The Royal Families of Europe by Geoffrey Hindley, he puts forth the arguments for who is the true heir of the French Crown. He discusses the Orleans branch, the Spanish Borbons, the Napoleons, and a couple of others--including HM Queen Elizabeth II!!

Who is the true heir and why??? I am curious to hear your opinions!!!!

H.M. Margrethe 06-09-2004 05:26 AM

]I really don´t think that HM Queen Elizabeth II is the person who are going to be the real heir to the French crown and neither the rest of her family becaus they have allredy spoilede the English crown.

Aubisse 06-10-2004 04:30 AM

Heir of the royal family of Bourbon (kings of France from 998 to 1830) : Monseigneur Louis Alphonse de Bourbon, duc d'Anjou et de Bourbon.

Heir of the royal family of Orléans (one king : Louis-Philippe 1830 - 1848) : Monseigneur Henri de France, comte de Paris, duc de France

Heir of the imperial family of Bonaparte : Son altesse impériale le Prince Napoléon

hillary_nugent 06-12-2004 03:44 AM

So exactly which one of these families are the true heirs to the throne?
i've been told that the royal family of Orleans are the true heirs.
by the way do the French Royalties get the same special treatment like other royalties and are they still considered royalties???

carlota 06-12-2004 08:47 AM

i would say that according to the situation nowadays luis alphonse deserves the throne. he was the only one present in thursday's funeral for luis xvii heart... apart from that, the bourbon's family was the one in charge of the throne after the revolution...

Sancia 06-12-2004 10:17 AM

Yes, but the last king of the Frenchs (and not the king of France) was Louis-Philippe Ier, firm the Orleans family. The currents heirs are his descendants.

tiaraprin 06-13-2004 02:20 AM

What about the Treaty of Utrecht, which Louis XIV signed, stating that his grandson Philip, upon becoming King of Spain, renounced all his rights to the French throne for him and his descendants? If this holds up, then Louis Alphonse has no claim.

I love playing devil's advocate :P The answer to this question is quite complicated!

Splodger 06-16-2004 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Moonlightrhapsody@Jun 16th, 2004 - 2:46 pm
I'm sure this is stupid of me to ask, but what does it mean when they say "pretender to the throne"? :huh: I've seen this phrase applied to the Russian and French royal circles.
This isnt a dictionary perfect reference, however basicaly a Pretender to a throne is someone who 'pretends' to be king, or claiment of a throne after that throne has been officialy abolished. So Russia & France for example both have officialy abolished the monarchy, therefore the PRETENDER is the person who claims their 'pretence' to the throne following their belife in former dynastic rules of succession.

King Constantine of Greece is and isnt a pretender as although the monarchy has been abolished, he was crowned king. a pretender has usualy not ever been king but would have been if the regime hadnt been abolished.

claudia 06-18-2004 05:18 PM

The real heirs to the French Throne are the Orléans.
When the Count of Chambord died, his legal heir in relation to the french royal family and chief of the French Royal Family was the Count of Paris.

Luis-Alfonso of Borbón, has no title, from his spanish side ( royal ), his father cames from a morganatic marriage and was made duke and Royal Highness by Francisco Franco. When the Duke of Cadiz died, the title returned to the royal family and to the king of Spain.
The same happened with the title of Duke of Angouleme and Duke of Anjou, both belongs to the royal house of France, when Philip V, renounced to his french titles and rights the title that he had as french prince ( duke of Anjou ) returned to the House of France.
Luis-Alfonso, his father and the legitimist are wrong and should not be causing all this troubles and confusions.
The chief of the Royal House of France ( Orléans or Bourbon ) is the actual Count of Paris Henri d´Orléans , Orléans-Braganza.

The King of Spain recongnized the Orléans as the real Heirs.

Charles 06-19-2004 11:18 PM

As for my opinion, the heir to France is Henri d'Orléans, Comte de Paris et Duc de France.

France was last a kingdom under Louis Philippe and he is the direct heir.

tiaraprin 06-19-2004 11:41 PM

What about the French court ruling in 1997 that the Treaty of Utrecht was not legally valid, thus making the Spanish Borbons the direct heirs because they descend directly from Louis XIV and the Orleans branch only from Louis' brother Phillipe??

I love playing the devil's advocate!!! :P :woot: :innocent:

Charles 06-19-2004 11:59 PM

The last instatement of the French throne was under Louis Philippe. The last royal laws are thus valid at his reign and in favour of his descendants.

The treaty never had a bearing on their claim as it is the last valid one.

Aubisse 08-06-2004 11:20 AM

According to the french law of succession (i.e. 'La loi Fondamentale du Royaume') no one can choose the next king of France, even the actual one. The king must be the elder male of the Bourbon family, resulting of a legitime marriage.

According to the treaty of Utrecht, the king of Spain cannot be also king of France.

Louis Alphonse de Bourbon is the elder mâle of the Bourbon family, resulting of a legitime marriage. He is not king of Spain. He is the only one who can be the true king of France.

But I am afraid, we shall have to wait before the return of our King ...

grecka 08-06-2004 04:00 PM

It will be a cold day in hell before there's another King of France. Nobody wants it, and France is better off as a republic than as a monarchy, as almost every country that has changed from monarchy to republic is.


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