The Royal Forums Coat of Arms


Join The Royal Forums Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #21  
Old 06-14-2017, 01:32 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Pittsburgh, United States
Posts: 5,274
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee-Z View Post
Well, to be honest...on the very odd occassion that someone in the netherlands thinks we should abolish the monarchy (usually triggered by a money spending issue), the argument "those germans" or "they aren't even really dutch" pops up now and then.
The dutch RF is indeed hardly "dutch", you'd be hard pressed to find a dutch royal with just dutch grandparents, but other than the "anti monarchists" it's never really an issue...

I find it hard to think of a family (among the prominent families of course) who is more "Dutch" than the Orange-Nassau, as the "founder" if you will of the dynasty (is also called the "father of the nation" (despite his direct descendants properly being now extinct). But, if you say so, then I accept it.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 06-14-2017, 01:38 PM
Duc_et_Pair's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: City, Netherlands
Posts: 9,682
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee-Z View Post
Well, to be honest...on the very odd occassion that someone in the netherlands thinks we should abolish the monarchy (usually triggered by a money spending issue), the argument "those germans" or "they aren't even really dutch" pops up now and then.
The dutch RF is indeed hardly "dutch", you'd be hard pressed to find a dutch royal with just dutch grandparents, but other than the "anti monarchists" it's never really an issue...
But -like in any royal family- it was more or less a no-no to marry a fellow "subject". In the Dutch royal family, before Pieter van Vollenhoven entered the royal scene, the last legal "Dutch-born" partner was Anna van Egmont, gravin van Buren in the 16th C.

The Swedes even had in their constitution that a successor could not marry a fellow compatriot without loosing their rights. There were plenty of royals who probably wanted to marry but were hindered.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 06-14-2017, 02:04 PM
Lee-Z's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Heerlen, Netherlands
Posts: 2,961
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
I find it hard to think of a family (among the prominent families of course) who is more "Dutch" than the Orange-Nassau, as the "founder" if you will of the dynasty (is also called the "father of the nation" (despite his direct descendants properly being now extinct). But, if you say so, then I accept it.
As you mention him, another remark that occassionally pops up: the dutch national anthem stems from a medieval poem and starts with the line "Wilhelmus van Nassaue ben ik van duitschen bloed" which in modern times translates as "Wilhelmus of Nassaue, I am of german blood". At the time it was written the netherlands as they are now didn't exist and the border with the german territory was very thin (if at all existing), so there really wasn't a difference like in modern day dutch and german.

Because we still use this anthem (but don't know the history that well), but think of the lines in the modern way, we actually have a feeling that we sing about "german blood".
The dutch anthem was for that reason changed in WWII, but the alternative also had some unsavoury connotations, so it was changed back after the war...but the question "why do we sing about 'I am of german blood' in this day and age" does surface now and again
__________________
Wisdom begins in wonder - Socrates
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 06-14-2017, 08:04 PM
JR76's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Malmö, Sweden
Posts: 2,643
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
But -like in any royal family- it was more or less a no-no to marry a fellow "subject". In the Dutch royal family, before Pieter van Vollenhoven entered the royal scene, the last legal "Dutch-born" partner was Anna van Egmont, gravin van Buren in the 16th C.

The Swedes even had in their constitution that a successor could not marry a fellow compatriot without loosing their rights. There were plenty of royals who probably wanted to marry but were hindered.
The Swedish constitution originally stated that a prince of the royal house could not marry "a private mans daughter" but this was changed in 1938 to "a private Swedish mans daughter". The rule did not forbid marriages to Swedes only to Swedes who wasnt considered of equal rank to the Royal house.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 06-15-2017, 02:22 PM
loonytick's Avatar
Courtier
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Tennessee, United States
Posts: 752
You keep harping on what things mean "to Americans." You do realize I'm American, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Marco Rubio's parents were both born outside the United States. Nevertheless, no one questioned that Marco Rubio was American, and being first generation didn't prevent him from running for president.
That's about as far from the point as you can be. Rubio was born in the US. His parents are neither here nor there. I was comparing the US requirements to people who became heads of state despite never having even lived in the country in question, who were invited from afar in a request that boiled down to "hey, will you please move here and become our king? We're not happy with the options we have in-house and you look like an alright guy. Thanks!" IIRC, the first time Jean Bernadotte ever stepped on Swedish soil was when he moved there to take the throne (well, technically, to become their aging king's crown prince). He was invited by the Riksdag on the basis of his skill as a military leader and the kindness he'd shown to Swedish prisoners of war.

I happen to find that fascinating, precisely because I'm American. Even if you moved here as a child and have been a citizen your entire adult life, you aren't eligible to run for President unless you were born here. A naturalized citizen can be a governor, like Arnold Schwarzenegger, did, but the highest office is off limits if you're foreign born. So yes, Marco Rubio could run for President, but his parents never had that option.

You find this silly. Fine. It's not for you.

No one is saying the Bernadottes are less than or don't have a right to the throne. It's just interesting to see that, even if you look at generation after generation after generation of monarchs in this dynastic house and their partners, this century was the first time that someone in line to their their throne chose a spouse from their own country. Especially given that they started with the importation of a foreigner to the throne.

That's noteworthy because the first however many generations of the house were living in an era when (a) royal marriages were first and foremost political, (b) monarchs still had a degree of power, and (c) politicians tended to have some concern that a monarch with strong familial or cultural ties to another country might offer an unwise level of favor that country of origin in international disputes. That concern wasn't helped by the very small amount of contact royals used to have with their nations' people. Given that context, it's remarkable to me that the Bernadottes never felt the need to shore up their "Swedishness" by, for instance, marrying off one of the first Bernadotte heirs to a princess from the prior ruling house.

This discussion has lead me to read up a little more on the family, so I now know that Jean Bernadotte himself made a choice that probably made a very big difference in how accepted his family was by the Swedish people: when he decided to accept the offer of the throne, Bernadotte went to Napoleon to offer his resignation and ask to be emancipated from his French citizenship. Napoleon tried to make him promise never to take up arms against France. But Bernadotte refused to make that pledge, saying quite firmly that he was obliged to consider the needs of Swedish ahead of his own Frenchness or ties to Napoleon.

Bringing him in had been a Riksdag plan; the king didn't much like it. But Bernadotte won him over after he arrived in Sweden. He seems to have worked pretty hard to earn his status as an adopted Swede. He was running everything even before the old king died, and he was popular. In other words, he really did do the work to become seen as Swedish.

The lack of Swedish-born brides in the family tree could have been a sign that generations of the Bernadotte house holed up in their palaces and didn't care to mix with people from their country. It's nice to see that, in this case, it was actually a matter of them not needing to make that kind of political statement with a marriage because the founder of their line did a good job of making the Bernadottes Swedish in ways that mattered to the nation's people and politicians.

And that's why I like these conversations. Little questions like the one that started this send me off along rabbit trails of data, the details of which hint at a nation's political story and help me find interesting times in their history that are fun to learn about.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 06-15-2017, 02:36 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Pittsburgh, United States
Posts: 5,274
Quote:
Originally Posted by JR76 View Post
The Swedish constitution originally stated that a prince of the royal house could not marry "a private mans daughter" but this was changed in 1938 to "a private Swedish mans daughter". The rule did not forbid marriages to Swedes only to Swedes who wasnt considered of equal rank to the Royal house.
The only Swedes who were equal in rank to the Royal House were members of the Royal Houses themselves. So, as far as I understand it, in practice they couldn't marry any Swede other than their own cousins.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 06-15-2017, 06:00 PM
JR76's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Malmö, Sweden
Posts: 2,643
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
The only Swedes who were equal in rank to the Royal House were members of the Royal Houses themselves. So, as far as I understand it, in practice they couldn't marry any Swede other than their own cousins.
The constitution does speak of families "in equal status" to the royal family which I guess is why Mountbatten was deemed acceptable in the 20s but if Carl jr's marriage to a countess von Rosen (very, very posh) wasnt considered equal no other Swedish families would have been so yes youre right.
__________________

Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
The Family and Ancestry of Grand Duchess Maria Teresa gogm Grand Duke Henri and Grand Duchess Maria Teresa 91 08-27-2019 06:28 PM
Germanic Ancestry of the House of Windsor BeatrixFan British Royals 136 01-12-2017 06:11 AM
What did the past the past and present royal share by ancestry Bowman Member Introductions 15 07-05-2014 01:18 PM
Tracing your ancestry American Royalty Member Introductions 4 12-28-2011 06:56 PM




Popular Tags
administrator archie mountbatten-windsor aristocracy belgian royal belgian royal family birthday celebration countess of snowdon crown crown prince hussein crown prince hussein's future wife crusades current events cypher danish royalty denmark duchess of cambridge duchess of sussex duke of sussex dutch royal family earl of wessex french revolution future genealogy germany hamdan bin mohammed harry headship house of bernadotte house of grimaldi house of orange-nassau jerusalem king philippe letter lithuania lithuanian palaces marriage mbs meghan markle mohammed vi monaco royal monarchist monarchy mountbatten nelson mandela bay netflix nobel prize official visit pakistan potential areas prince charles prince daniel prince harry princely family of monaco princess anne queen mathilde queen paola romanov family rown savoy saxony south korea spanish royal state visit state visit to denmark sweden swedish history trump viscount severn visit from sweden windy city


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:01 PM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2019
Jelsoft Enterprises
×