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  #21  
Old 02-07-2010, 03:42 AM
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You are welcome.
One does not even know for sure that King Alfonso VI who had 5 or 6 wives was married to that Isabel/Zayda (who at least started as his mistress) and that his daughter Sancha's mother was really her and not another wife of him named Isabel.
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  #22  
Old 02-07-2010, 07:21 AM
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That is all very true. The genealogical sites I looked at (after your post) gave her the benefit of the doubt and give her as the last wife of Alfonso VI and Sancha their daughter, but then who knows?
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  #23  
Old 05-18-2010, 09:20 AM
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I think that the descendence of Zaida of Sevile is not certain, because of this reaseons:
Princess Zaida of Seville was a refugee Muslim princess who was a mistress and then perhaps queen of Alfonso VI of Castile. She is said by Iberian Muslim sources to have been the daughter-in-law of Al Mutamid, the Muslim King of Seville, wife of his son Abu al Fatah al Ma'Mun, Emir of Cordoba. Later Iberian Christian chroniclers call her Al Mutamid's daughter, but the Islamic chroniclers are considered more reliable.
So His Majesty the Queen could descende from the Prophet Muhammad from the Mayas of Portugal, by the investigation of Francisco António Dória.

There another descendence of the Prophet, but not by iberian lines. I have a information / letter from Burkes Peerage from 8 June 1993 that says « The Queen and Prinde Philip both descend from John Ducas, brother of Emperor Constantine XI (1059-1067). Jonh Ducas was a direct descendant of a sister of the Prophet» Unfortanelly, I don`t know nothing more than these.

Sincerly

Luís Menezes
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  #24  
Old 05-18-2010, 01:13 PM
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I am interested in the question of whether these people were Christians voluntarily.
As descendants of the Prophet Muhammad, they are regarded in Islam as something special.
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  #25  
Old 05-19-2010, 12:48 AM
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Mohammed had a sister????????

are you sure about this?
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  #26  
Old 05-19-2010, 12:13 PM
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Muhammad had no siblings.


His father died before his birth, when his mother was pregnant with him.
His mother died when Muhammad was six years old.
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  #27  
Old 05-19-2010, 02:24 PM
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The other lines of descendants in Europe from Muhammad the Prophet could be:

-Laras
-Banu Qasi
-Kings Arabs of Seville
-Maias
-Umayyids-Emir´s of Cordova

You could consult in Internet by:

- Arabia2 Europa: descent lines from Muhammed "The Prophet of Ismam"



Subject: Re: five descent-lines from Mohammed "The Prophet of Islam

After that I suggest to see the all the comments done in that sites

Luís
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  #28  
Old 05-19-2010, 10:57 PM
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We Muslims believe in following through the descendants of Muhammad.

Zaynab Bint Muhammad is viewed as the oldest daughter of Muhammad and Khadijah Bint Khuwaylid by Sunni Muslims.
Zainab was married to her maternal cousin Abu al-‘As bin Al-Rabi‘ and that was before Al-Hijra.Married to Abu al-‘As bin Al-Rabi prior to his conversion and circumcision to Islam, she became the mother of two children: Ali and Umamah.
Ali ibn Zainab,died after a few years in 9 AH.
His sister Umamah Bint Zaynab,after the death of her aunt Fatimah she married Muhammad's cousin Ali Ibn Abu Talib. They had a common son,Hilal ibn Ali. She died in 66 AH (circa 685 CE).


Ruqayyah is viewed as the second daughter of Muhammad and Khadijah Bint Khuwaylid by Sunni Muslims.

She was first married to Utbah Ibn Abu Lahab. His father, Abu Lahab, forced Utbah to repudiate Ruqayyah due to Abu Lahab's opposition to Muhammad and his teachings. Muslim convert Uthman Ibn Affan had long admired Ruqayyah and was then able to ask for her hand in marriage. Ruqayyah's son was Abd -Allah Ibn Uthman, who died when he was 2 years old. Uthman Ibn Affan became the third Caliph of Islam.


Umm Kulthum bint Muhammad was the third daughter of Muhammad from his first wife Khadijah according to Sunni Muslims. Muhammad given second of his daughters to Uthman Ibn Affan after the death of first, the 3rd rightly guided Caliph of Islam. It is reported in a hadith that if the prophet had more daughters he would have also married them to Uthman.

Her first husband was Utaybah Ibn Abu Lahab and her second was Uthman Ibn Affan.
She died either in 9 AH (630 AD) or around the time of the battle of Badr (624AD).She had no Children.


Fatimah c. 605or 615–632) was the last and important daughter of Muhammad and Khadijah. She is regarded by Muslims as an exemplar for men and women.She remained at her father's side through the difficulties suffered by him at the hands of the Quraysh of Mecca. After migration to Medina, she marriedAli ibn Abi Talib, Muhammad's cousin.She died a few months after her father, and was buried in Jannat Al Baqi in the city of Medina, although the exact location of her grave is unknown. Most Shias believe that she was injured when defending Ali against the first Caliphate, and that this incident led to her early death.
Their marriage lasted about ten years and ended when Fatima died. Although polygyny is permitted by Islam, Ali did not marry another woman while Fatimah was alive.

Fatimah was survived by two sons, Hasan and Husayn, and two daughters,Zaynab and Umm Kulthum.Controversy surrounds the fate of her third son,Muhsin. Shias say that she miscarried following an attac on her House by Abu Bakr and Umar, while Sunnis insist that Muhsin died in his infancy of natural causes.

Modern descendants of Muhammad trace their lineage exclusively through Fatimah, as she was the only surviving child of Muhammad. Muhammad had no sons who reached adulthood.
Fatimah's descendants are given the honorific titles Sharif (meaning noble), sayyid (meaning lord or sir) and respected by both Sunni and Shi'a, though the Shi'as place much more emphasis and value on the distinction.
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  #29  
Old 06-30-2010, 07:39 AM
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Thanks Timur Can for the info.. very informative indeed. There are many in Malaysia with the Syed's title. Islam came to Malaysia and the Malay region here via the sufis.
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  #30  
Old 06-30-2010, 09:35 AM
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Islam in Spain

Quote:
Originally Posted by Timur Can View Post
I am interested in the question of whether these people were Christians voluntarily.
As descendants of the Prophet Muhammad, they are regarded in Islam as something special.
From my readings of the history of Islam in Spain and my visits there.. most of the muslims were either forced to leave the country/ expelled or forcefully converted to Christianity or faced death, after the Islamic empire were defeated which was referred to as the "reconquista".

With Zaida (or Isabella) in one of the geneological pages it said she was muslim descendant of the Prophet, but later "baptized" as catholic and was married to a Catholic King.

Isabella Perez (Isabella of Castile) Princess of Castile & Leon - Descendant of: Muhammad - The Prophet

" Alfonso Ferdinandez VI, King of León & Castile, b. BEF JUN 1040 &
() Zaida (Isabella) born est c.1075 later bapt as a Christian - Died: 1107
Notes: It may look like Zaida married her brother from this data! This is because of a conflict between sources on who she was. Sources in Morocco are convinced she was the daughter of the Emir. They claim that the Christians in Spain removed and altered records that indicated a Muslim ancestory for their Royal houses. The Emir was exiled in Morocco after being expelled from Spain, and it is claimed records from this time are still in Morocco. I leave it for future scholars to investigate. Others say she did not mother any children by Alfonso "

Islam was practised if any in seclusion and underground for those remaining in the country.

| Victory News Magazine | Mosque Opens in Granada, Spain |

I would think if they converted to Christianity due to unavoidable circumstances and due to force, not voluntarily.

From what I see most of the muslims in present day Spain are new migrants, either opening businesses there (several of the souvenir stores I visited are owned by muslim migrants) or with one muslim family I met the husband was teaching at one of the university there.

When I was visiting Al Hambra, our guide I believe told me his family were descendants of old Spanish muslims. I didn't ask if they are still muslims or if he is, whether he practises Islam as a faith. But the sad thing is all the Islamic ruins and architectures were converted to Christian churches and stocked w effigies and statues, except for the Al Hambra which is left as it is, a beautiful architecture of a garden. While visiting the Cordoba Mezquita, several muslim tourists asked to pray inside during prayer time but the guard did not allowed.

There seems to be some flexibility in recent times to allow the building of mosque there. ie Malaysia also contributes to the building of a mosque in present day Spain if not mistaken is this one in Granada.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/image...naret2-203.jpg

BBC NEWS | Europe | Mosque signals Muslims' return to Spain

but from my readings, they won't allow the re-conversion of the olden mosques to what it were before coz most have been converted to catholic churches.
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  #31  
Old 06-30-2010, 09:13 PM
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They have all been converted to churches, as they did with synagogues. Whe the Inquisition was in, all that was Catholic was out. Yes, it is sad that all these holy places for the others were taken over. The Alhambra was a palace, not a mosque, there for they did not need to change anything.
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  #32  
Old 07-01-2010, 05:16 PM
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Well what happened to the mosque in Cordoba is very similar to what the muslims did to Saint Sophie in Istanbul isn't it? I'm just grateful that those places are conserved today.

The mosque still survives because they converted to a cathedral if not it would have dissapeared, although as Carlos I said what a disgraceful thing to do to such a beautiful place. I've been to that mosque and the catholic part is awful. And they don't let muslims pray there because now it is catholic the same happens in Saint Sophie I think.

The jews and muslims were made to convert or go from Spain, although some of them stayed and they kept their faith hidden, there is a village I think in Granada where the people were desdendants from muslims that kept their faith.

La Alhambra was a palace and it has been kept I think more or less as when the califas reign over Granada. Although there is a new area where Carlos I built his own palace.
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  #33  
Old 07-01-2010, 08:47 PM
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Yes, intolerance has reared its ugly head in many places and St. Sophia's is a mosque. Tit for tat.

I have been to the mosque in Cordoba, it is spectatcular. And, yes, the Catholic part is , I don't know if, awful, is the right word, it is more ridiculous looking, out of place. Sad.

Many stayed and kept their faith. The Jews who did that were called Marranos. Many were massacarred, anyway.
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  #34  
Old 08-30-2010, 05:36 AM
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India to return half a billion worth of estates to Muslim royal - Telegraph

Mohammed Amir Mohammed Khan, the Raja of Mahmudabad, has been fighting to recover his family estates, which include a royal fort and a palace built for a former British colonial governor, for 37 years.

The estates were seized by the Indian government along with hundreds of other 'enemy properties’ belonging to Muslims who migrated to Pakistan following the 1965 war between the two countries. They included the family home, the historic Qila Fort, near Lucknow, and the family’s vast property portfolio because his father, Amir Ahmed Khan, decided to become a Pakistani citizen in 1957.

But while he chose Pakistan, his wife, a Rani in her own right, and son, now the current Raja, chose to stay as Indian citizens. Since his father’s death in 1973, he has been fighting a series of legal battles with the government to challenge the status of his inherited estates as 'enemy property’ and recover them from tenants.

The Raja sacrificed his own career as an astrophysicist – he studied at Cambridge and was a fellow of the Royal Astronomical Society in London – to take over his father’s responsibilities and was nominated by the late Indian Prime Minister Rajiv Gandhi as a Congress candidate in the state assembly.Since then, and despite having powerful friends in the Nehru-Gandhi dynasty, the Raja has been forced to fight more than 10 court actions to establish his Indian citizenship and his claim as sole heir to his father’s title and estates.

His victory was sealed this weekend when the Indian parliament agreed a new 'Enemy Property Act’ which will restore all confiscated properties to Muslim owners who can prove their Indian citizenship.

The Khans are one of India’s oldest royal families, one of the most senior in the Shi’ite Muslim world, and can trace its roots back to the Prophet Mohammad.
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  #35  
Old 07-02-2011, 04:08 AM
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I think its imporant to mention that who many claim to be from Quraish and/or Bani hashim, are not. Over the years claiming Hashimi roots has been done for either , religious/political influence or simply for monetary gain. (through al-khums or other indirect ways) It has become a common practice especially in areas where people arent that familiar with Arab tribes where its much easier to do. Therefore, the origins of many who claim to belong to Bani Hashim shouldnt be taken for granted.

Currently theres a few DNA projects being done on Quraish, Bani Tameem (tribe of Qatars ruling family ), Bani Khaled (previous rulers of the eastern province in Saudi Arabia) and other prominent tribes.


Research is being done on both Adnani Arabs (decendants of Isma'eel aka Ishmael, son of Abraham, who Quraish, Bani Tameem and other tribes go back to) and Qahtani Arabs as well. Im pretty sure once we have definitive scientific information to refer to we're going to be in for a few surprises especially regarding those who claim that they are from Quraish and Bani Hashim in particular for reasons related to politics, and in some cases religion as well. (I'll try keeping politics and religion in this post to a minimum).


For instance, many scholars and historians have said that the Fatimides are most certainly not decendants of Ali Bin Abi Talib, and therefore call them the "Ubaidis" instead of Fatimides. According to them, the real name of the founder of the dynasty is "Saeed Bin Al hussain Bin Ahmad Bin Abdallah Bin Maymoon Al Qaddda Bin Desaan Al Shanawee Al Ahwazee" who went by the name Ubaidillah and claimed to be a decendant of Ali.


The famous historian, Al Dhahabi (born 1274) said in "Siyar A'laam Al Nobala":

"There are several opinions concerning the lineage of al-Mahdi, which may be summed up by noting that he was neither Hashimi nor Fatimi"


He also stated in Tareekh Al Islam 'The genealogists and scholars denied his claims concerning his lineage" In another book he said "Al Mahdi Ubaidulla lied about being a decendant of Jafar Al Sadiq ( a well known decendant of Ali ) "


Al Suyooti (born 1445) in his book "The history of Caliphs" (Tareekh Al Khulafaa') mentioned this and said that he was a son of a Magian. (Magians being from Persia) Al Baqillani, Ibn Katheer, Al Nowairee, Al Ghazali, have also said similar things about their lineage.


Judges and scholars from Baghdad at the time also collectivly stated this opinion in a letter.


"Bin" meaning "son of", a decendant of Ali whos full name going back to Ali is proved and established as "Akhu Muhsin, Muhammad Bin Ali Bin Al hussain Bin Ahmad Bin Isma'eel Bin Muhammad Bin Jaffar Al Sadiq Bin Muhammad Bin Ali Bin Alhussain Bin Al hussain Bin Ali Bin Abi Talib said about the real name of the founder of the dynasty :


"Ubaidullah Al Mahdi is Saeed Bin Al hussain Bin Ahmad Bin Abdallah Bin Maymoon Al Qaddda Bin Desaan Al Thanawee, and is originally a Magian" (Masr Min Ahd Bonat Al Qahira p 81)


Granted, theres others that dispute this for various reasons and have their own quotes to provide.


However, the lineage of Ubaidis (or Fatimids), and many others today (local leaders etc, not necessarily royals) , is most certainly not a matter of consensus. Some Arabs that belong to tribes and well known families give exceptional importance and care in marriage and other issues to geneology and authentic roots, and its much harder to make unsupported claims regarding geneology among them as it would be in say, Indonesia.
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  #36  
Old 03-07-2012, 02:45 PM
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Im almost certain that as well as the obvious Hashemite Dynasty (Sharifs and Emirs of Mecca - Monarchies of Jordan & Iraq), also The Hussainid Beys of Tunis (Monarchy of Tunisia) Dynasty, and The Qasimid Hamidaddin Imams of Sanaa & Kings of Yemen (Monarchy of North Yemen) Dynasty, as well as one or two of The Sultanates and Sheikhdoms in Aden and South Arabia (Monarchies in South Yemen) - could claim descent from the Prophet Muhammad through various lines after Fatima and Ali.

Also of course The Alawid (Filali) Dynasty of The Sultans and Kings of The Monarchy of Morocco.
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  #37  
Old 04-21-2012, 08:48 PM
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You people have not mentioned the Abbasid. When Baghdad was attacked and occupied by the mongols, all members of the royal family went either to cairo, where we still had a caliphate ... till 1517 when these ottomans came with selim and took away cairo too.
After loosing our major strongholds, we had to defect to the arabian peninsula(palestine and jordan...not many went to damascus; Do not forget, that we are not very welcomed upon umayyads or ayyubids or in their area) and to the area, which is today pakistan's punjab, where we had great lands and holdings, which we occupied around 1100-1300.
Nevertheless, many are trying to establish themselves in the area of hashim again.
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