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  #141  
Old 02-20-2013, 07:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Noble Consort Ming View Post
Mathilde was not born a countess. She was Jonkvrouw Mathilde d'Udekem d'Acoz. Her family was raised to comital rank when she married. She was, of course, still of noble descent.
I think he wanted to say at the time she becomes the Queen...If she would get a divorce right now,she would still be the Countess(if she doesn't get another title) in her own right...
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  #142  
Old 02-21-2013, 06:33 PM
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dynastic laws of the various royal houses of Europe: works, books, articles...

Does anyone know some printed works, books, articles also on internet, where I can found (almost some) dynastic laws of the various royal houses of Europe (maybe also correctly applied to the genealogies of the Families)?

Unfortunately the new series of the "Almanach de Gotha" or the "Genealogisches Handbuch des Adels - Fürstliche Häuser", aren't very useful in this particular subject.....
I have the sensation that very often the compilers of some genealogical books don't know the various dynastic laws, or simply they have ignored this subject during the compiling their genealogical works.

Thank you all for any information on this topic !
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  #143  
Old 02-23-2013, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Noble Consort Ming View Post
Mathilde was not born a countess...She was, of course, still of noble descent.
true.. but regardless, she is still of noble descent.. Mathilde's grandmother was Princess Zofia Sapieha, a member of the House of Sapieha, one of the most powerful Polish noble families.. the Sapiehas is one of princely families that some sovereign houses have considered equal in marriage purposes such as the case of Princess Cristina of Orléans-Braganza married Prince Jean Sapieha-Rozanski.. her children, Princess Ana Teresa Sapieha-Rozanska and Princess Paola Sapieha-Rozanska are both in line to the Brazilian throne..

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Originally Posted by Marc23 View Post
At the time of Baudoin and Fabiola's marriage the concept of equalness was beginning to fade ...
also, i have read that Fabiola's family, the de Mora y Aragons were close friends of the Spanish Royal family who were in exile back then.. not surprised though seeing that Fabiola's godmother was Queen Victoria Eugenia of Spain herself.. this connection allowed her to meet Baudoin, and her family's close connections with the Spanish royal family seems to add to her appropriateness to be Queen of Belgium.. it was said that when Prince Albert, Prince of Liege (future King Albert II) married Princess Paola Ruffo di Calabria, King Baudoin had already asked Doña Fabiola de Mora y Aragón's hand in marriage but was kept secret.
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  #144  
Old 02-23-2013, 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Sangre_Real016 View Post
true.. but regardless, she is still of noble descent.. .
Yeah, that's exactly what I said at the end of my post. You're arguing to agree??? I only pointed that she was not born a countess.

And I know all about her Polish background. I was born in Poland and am very familiar with our noble families.
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  #145  
Old 02-24-2013, 07:24 AM
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Her fathers family can claim noble descent for more then 1000 years ago which means that they also belong to a very old noble family that were once vassals of the Duke of Brabant.
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  #146  
Old 02-24-2013, 11:42 AM
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true.. the d'Udekem d'Acoz family can be traced back since 939 AD.. Princess Mathilde's ancestry can be traced back for 25 generations to Raes of Udekem born aroun 1130.. her family is not far with the House of Wettin to which Prince Phillipe belongs to in terms of antiquity.
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  #147  
Old 02-25-2013, 10:56 AM
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Obviously it's not everything about how old someone's family is,but how does the family develop and progress through time.
Some noble families stayed for a long time where they were and some progressed more quickly.
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  #148  
Old 02-26-2013, 02:29 PM
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But remember that during the Ancient Regime, Antiquity of nobility in the legitimate male line, not noble quarterings, was the main criterion of rank.. and to some families, antiquity of nobility is enough to be considered "good enough" for grander families.. but sadly, not enough for the creme of the crop..
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  #149  
Old 02-26-2013, 03:45 PM
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Those at the top make the rules, and especially those rules applying to themselves.
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  #150  
Old 02-26-2013, 05:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Sangre_Real016 View Post
...the Sapiehas is one of princely families that some sovereign houses have considered equal in marriage purposes such as the case of Princess Cristina of Orléans-Braganza who married Prince Jean Sapieha-Rozanski.. her children...are both in line to the Brazilian throne..
Princesses Ana Teresa and Paola of Sapieha-Rozanki aren't in line to the Brazilian Throne.
Their great-grandfather, Prince Pedro de Alcântara (1875-1940) renounced his dynastic rights, for himself and all his descendents.
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  #151  
Old 02-26-2013, 08:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Warren View Post

Those at the top make the rules, and especially those rules applying to themselves.

True,that's why sometimes some great families were overlooked due to lack of present connections on the top at that particular moment...

But,again,every family that has some impact wants to do something to either push themselves further or stay at the top or near the top...
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  #152  
Old 02-27-2013, 01:53 PM
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I always found dynastic marriages a very interesting thing. And 'm totally in favor of it.

Here in Brazil, the members of the Imperial Family are still required to marry equally, in order to keep the dynastic rights. But this is not a law from the Imperial Constitution of 1824, it's just a rule of Imperial House, so, the Head of Imperial House (currently, Prince Luiz) can change this rule. But he has said that he'll not do this.

The last dynastic marriage of member of the Brazilian Imperial Family was in 1981, when Prince Antônio (the third in the line of susseccion) married Princess Christine of Ligne.

We are now waiting to see their children (Prince Rafael and Princesses Amélia and Maria Gabriela) marrying.
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  #153  
Old 03-02-2013, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by BrazilianEmpire View Post
I always found dynastic marriages a very interesting thing. And 'm totally in favor of it.

Here in Brazil, the members of the Imperial Family are still required to marry equally, in order to keep the dynastic rights. But this is not a law from the Imperial Constitution of 1824, it's just a rule of Imperial House, so, the Head of Imperial House (currently, Prince Luiz) can change this rule. But he has said that he'll not do this.

The last dynastic marriage of member of the Brazilian Imperial Family was in 1981, when Prince Antônio (the third in the line of susseccion) married Princess Christine of Ligne.

We are now waiting to see their children (Prince Rafael and Princesses Amélia and Maria Gabriela) marrying.
Prince Antonio's marriage to Princess Christine of Ligne is one fine example.. thing is, the House of Ligne, probably, one of Belgium's most illustrious noble families are not of sovereign or mediatised rank.. meaning, in theory, they are not dynastically equal to families of sovereign rank.. but the Lignes same as the Rohans and other more illustrious families are considered by some sovereign houses to be good enough for them..
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  #154  
Old 03-02-2013, 11:36 AM
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The Princes of Ligne were mediatised in 1806.
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  #155  
Old 03-02-2013, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by BrazilianEmpire View Post
The Princes of Ligne were mediatised in 1806.
actual no.. their lands were sold to the House of Esterhazy von Galantha in 1804 and the lands were mediatised to Bavaria in 1806.. that is why the House of Ligne only remained as a Princely Noble House same as the houses of Radziwill, Czartoryski and Rohan.. if you would see the current list of houses in the Almanach de Gotha, the House of Ligne belongs to the Section III along with other houses such as Orsini, Spencer, Bagration, Visconti, Rohan, Gonzaga, Radziwill, Kinsky, Alba, etc..

pls check these sites for references..

Mediatization (1806-15)
Almanach de Saxe Gotha - Online Royal Genealogical Reference
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  #156  
Old 03-02-2013, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Sangre_Real016 View Post
actual no.. their lands were sold to the House of Esterhazy von Galantha in 1804 and the lands were mediatised to Bavaria in 1806.. that is why the House of Ligne only remained as a Princely Noble House same as the houses of Radziwill, Czartoryski and Rohan.. if you would see the current list of houses in the Almanach de Gotha, the House of Ligne belongs to the Section III along with other houses such as Orsini, Spencer, Bagration, Visconti, Rohan, Gonzaga, Radziwill, Kinsky, Alba, etc..

pls check these sites for references..

Mediatization (1806-15)
Almanach de Saxe Gotha - Online Royal Genealogical Reference
Well, the Head of the Imperial House by the time, Prince Pedro Henrique (1909-1981), considered that the marriage would be a Dynastic one, and this is what matters.

Thanks for the piece of information.
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  #157  
Old 03-02-2013, 11:57 AM
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Here are all the Dynastic Marriages of the Imperial Family of Brazil:

- Pedro, Prince Royal of Portugal (future Emperor Pedro I of Brazil) and Archduchess Leopoldina of Austria, in 1817.

- Emperor Pedro I and Princess Amélia of Leuchtenberg, in 1829.

- Princess Francisca and Francis, Prince of Joinville, in 1843.

- Emperor Pedro II and Princess Teresa Cristina of Two-Sicilies, in 1843.

- Princess Januária and Prince Luigi, Count of Áquila, in 1844.

- Isabel, Princess Imperial, and Prince Gaston, Count of Eu, in 1864.

- Princess Leopoldina and Prince August of Saxe-Cobourg and Gotha, in 1864.

- Prince Augusto Leopoldo of Saxe-Cobourg and Gotha (Leopoldina’s son, considered a member of the Imperial Family) and Archduchess Carolina Maria of Áustria, in 1894.

- Luiz Maria, Prince Imperial, and Princess Maria Pia of Two-Sicilies, in 1908.

- Prince Pedro Henrique, Head of the Imperial House, and Princess Maria Elizabeth of Bavaria, in 1937.

- Princess Eleonora and Prince Michel of Ligne, in 1981.

- Prince Antônio and Princess Christine of Ligne, in 1981.

The next will be the ones of Prince Antônio’s children.
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  #158  
Old 03-02-2013, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by BrazilianEmpire View Post
Well, the Head of the Imperial House by the time, Prince Pedro Henrique (1909-1981), considered that the marriage would be a Dynastic one, and this is what matters.

Thanks for the piece of information.
true.. that is actually what matters.. and few would question that a marriage of a Orleans-Braganza prince to a Ligne princess would not be considered dynastic as the House of Ligne is among the few families from the Gotha's Section III that is closest to be considered dynastic..

no probs.. :)
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  #159  
Old 03-02-2013, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Sangre_Real016 View Post
true.. that is actually what matters.. and few would question that a marriage of a Orleans-Braganza prince to a Ligne princess would not be considered dynastic as the House of Ligne is among the few families from the Gotha's Section III that is closest to be considered dynastic..

no probs.. :)
Yes, the Dynastic recognition is all that matters. And the Lignes are one of the most noble Princely families in world.

Brazil has long tradition of Dynastic Marriages, and everything points that this tradition will continue with Prince Rafael and his sisters, Ptincesses Amélia and Maria Gabriela.
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  #160  
Old 03-02-2013, 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted by BrazilianEmpire View Post
Yes, the Dynastic recognition is all that matters. And the Lignes are one of the most noble Princely families in world.
true.. the Lignes are the few princely families of such distinction.. many of their scions have married dynastically with ruling families.. others would include the Rohans (probably due to them being Prince étranger of France), Radziwills (some married with the Prussian Royal Family), Czartoryskis (who intermarried with princes/ses of the Two-Sicilies).. the Kinskys have intermarried with the Princes of Liechtenstein for centuries.. that is the reason that we have discussed in this thread that the Section III of the Gotha needs to be amended since some families listed there are far more illustrious than others.. we cannot compare families such as Ligne, Rohan, Gonzaga, Radziwill, Visconti, Czartoryski, Kinsky, La Tremoille, Dohna, Pamphilj, Spencer, Alba, Merode, Ruffo di Calabria and Medinaceli to the likes of Albufera, Capece-Minutolo, d'Aquino, Bevilaqua-Ariosti..
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