No, their children wouldn't have rights to his wealth. If Gustav married her, he would loose everything, his wealth and the castle.
Royal and Noble Families: Dynastic Laws and Marriage Rules
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No, their children wouldn't have rights to his wealth. If Gustav married her, he would loose everything, his wealth and the castle.
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He doesn't have any personal wealth? Nothing that is not inherited?
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It is not known who is affected by the testament as it's content is not known. It is only known that it affects Gustav as the late Fürst specially named his yet unborn grandson as heir.
They would have the right to his personal wealth,the one that was not part of the testament in question...
But,under those circumstances,they would not have the right to the one inherited from the testament...it would go to another member of the family who has married under the terms of the testament...
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Sangre_Real016
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true.. i guess Gustav is caught between a rock and a hard place.. it seems that he really loves Carina.. anyways, does Gustav really need to marry equally? i mean, a member of a sovereign or mediatised house? iirc, his paternal grandmother Duchess(?) Margareta Fouché d'Otrante was a member of a French/Swedish nobility.. can Gustav marry a someone from the high nobility of princely/ducal families? say a Ligne, Rohan or a Radziwill?
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Probably that would be allowed according to the testament. She only has to be arian and protestant. Wonder what would have happenedif he had married his fiancee Elvire. She was catholic and not noble.
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Well,she has some noble blood and connections being a descendant of the Mavrocordato and Pettrocochino families and having some noble cousins such as Counts de la Rochefoucauld,Counts d'Harcourt,Counts de Beaumont,Counts de la Croix and so on...Her aunt is Princess Armande de Polignac...
Her mother Helene comes from a prominent noble family who had been Counts and also Privy Councillors of Grand Duke Leopold II of Tuscany...
Prince Gustav wanted to marry Elvire,but her father wasn't satisfied with the pre-marriage contract-her financial settlement in case of divorce and the marriage had to be called off...
But,her father is not noble,although he has noble sounding surname which his family adopted at some point and she doesn't have German blood,so...hard to tell...
Her mother Helene comes from a prominent noble family who had been Counts and also Privy Councillors of Grand Duke Leopold II of Tuscany...
Prince Gustav wanted to marry Elvire,but her father wasn't satisfied with the pre-marriage contract-her financial settlement in case of divorce and the marriage had to be called off...
But,her father is not noble,although he has noble sounding surname which his family adopted at some point and she doesn't have German blood,so...hard to tell...
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NGalitzine
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According to the will doesn't a bride have to be Aryan, Protestant and have 16 quarterings of noble lines?
I don't think nobody knows what exactly is written in it.
I think he can,if the bride has at least some German blood/ancestry.
Margareta Fouché d'Otrante had a lot of German blood being a descendant of the Grand Duke Ludwig I von Baden and many,many more German noble families from her fathers and from her mothers side of the family.
.
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Sangre_Real016
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well, if that is the case, can Gustav marry Lady Alexandra Spencer-Churchill, daughter of John Spencer-Churchill, 11th Duke of Marlborough and Countess Dagmar Rosita Douglas being her mother a descendant of Philipp Friedrich Alexander, Prince of Eulenburg and Hertefeld?
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Does it really matter who he could have married? He seems pretty set on Carina who seems quite accepted by his family, with no indication he intends to change his domestic arrangements.
Countess Dagmar is also a descendant of Grand Duke Ludwig I von Baden and many,many more German families like his grandmother Margareta,so I guess it would be enough.
Duke of Marlborough also has some German blood being a descendant of many German families such as Habsburg,Oldenburg,Sachsen-Lauenburg,Mecklenburg-Schwerin...apart from that he also descends from a family von Ossenbroich zu Morsbroich.
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Duke of Marlborough also has some German blood being a descendant of many German families such as Habsburg,Oldenburg,Sachsen-Lauenburg,Mecklenburg-Schwerin...apart from that he also descends from a family von Ossenbroich zu Morsbroich.
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The Radziwiłł family cannot be considered equal in any way with mediatised houses of the Holy Roman Empire. Although the first member of this family achieved the title and dignity of a Reichsfurst in 1547 (Mikołaj "the Red" Radziwiłł) and they were one of the richest and most powerful families of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and Europe as well, they were not descended from and never was a rulling house. They held extensive landholdings, mostly in Lithuania, which they ruled as almost sovereign lords and had their own large courts and even held some military power under their own command. They used some of their land possessions' names, such as Ołyka, as parts of their titles, claiming they were Dukes of Ołyka. But their lands were formally not even fiefs and they were subjects, not vassals of Polish kings (who were also Grand Dukes of Lithuania). In fact, their major holdings, including the estate in which Ołyka was the central and eponymus part, held the status similiar to a fee tail (they were held by members of the family in fideicommis). The fee tail was hereditary in primogeniture and could not be divided, sold or mortgaged. The other grandest Polish families also held fideicommises (in Polish known as ordynacja).
I know only one case of a member of the Radziwiłł family who became owner of an estate of the Holy Roman Empire and thus, achieved a higher formal status outisde Poland. It was Prince Janusz Radziwiłł (1579-1620), head of the Clavinist branch of the family, who in 1618 bought the Lordship (Herrschaft) of Lichtenberg in Bavaria for 160 000 guldens. From 1616 he lived in exile in Germany and the purchase of the land, preluded by a close involvement in local political life in alliance with the Protestant princes of the Empire, was a move to achieve the said status and become a rightful member of the estates of the Empire. His goal was to weaken the position of the Emperor as he wished that a possible war between the Emperor's coalition and the Protestant estates of the Empire, which he planned to financially support, would finally give him the desired status in a reward. What could be more interesting here in this thread, in 1613 he married Elisabeth Sophia of Brandenburg, daughter of the Elector John George. It was the first marriage of a Radziwiłł with a member of the House of Hohenzollern in history. In 1620, after seven years of marriage, Janusz Radziwiłł died and the Lichtenberg passed under control of his widow, who in 1628 married secondly Duke Julius Henry of Saxe-Lauenburg (and had one son, Francis Hermann, with him).
Janusz and Elisabeth Sophia's son, Bogusław Radziwiłł, who for some time in his youth lived at his mother court in Lichtenberg, married his cousin Anna Maria Radziwiłł, who was a wealthy heiress of her line of the family. They had one daughter, Ludwika Karolina, who eventually became the heiress and last member of the entire Protestant branch of the House of Radziwiłł. I don't know if Janusz Radziwiłł has finally achieved his goal and was considered by members of the HRE as equal but his son, Bogusław, continued this struggle to assume a sovereign power in his own way, by signing in 1656 a treaty with the rulers of Sweden, Brandenburg and Transylvania as part of their alliance againt Poland in the Second Northern War. The signatories divided Poland and Lithuania between themselves, the invaders, with Bogusław Radziwiłł achieving the territory of the entire Nowogródek voivodship as his sovereign realm. There are also no sources stating that Janusz's son, Boguslaw, ruled (or even owned? because as far as I know, Elisabeth Sophia held the estate) Lichtenberg after his father as it seems that he tried to gain even more than his father did in his own way. Moreover, he was not involved in the internal German politics like his father was and he dedicated his entire life and all efforts to strengthen his position in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and eventually to establish more and more independent rule in his Lithuanian lands.
Ludwika Karolina Radziwiłł, daughter and heiress of Bogusław Radziwiłł, was the second member of her family married into the House of Hohenzollern. She was extremely rich, having owned over 1,000 villages and a couple of cities. Her first husband was Louis of Brandeburg, son of the Elector Frederick William, whom she married in 1681. However, Louis died 6 years later. Widowed Ludwika Karolina married then in 1688 even grander than the first time, with her second husband becoming Charles III Philip, the Elector Palatine. Thus, Princess Ludwika Karolina Radziwill became the Kurfurstin von der Pfalz. She had three daughters and one stillborn son with him, while only the youngest daughter named Elisabeth Augusta Sophie had produced issue which continued the line of Janusz and Bogusław Radziwiłłs in female-line. The Kings of Bavaria were among her descendants. The Ludwika Karolina's vast estates in Poland and Lithuania were a subject of a long-time and high-profiled dispute between her Catholic paternal relatives from an another branch of the Radziwiłł family, other magnates of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and her German ancestors. The noble estates of Poland claimed that the so-called Neuburg domain, which was Luidwika Karolina's inheritance, cannot passed to the Wittelsbachs because by marrying the Elector Palatine in secret from the Polish government, she broke the prenuptial agreement of her and Prince Jakub Ludwik Sobieski, son of King John III Sobieski. Finally, the Radziwiłł lands passed to their agnatic heirs, the Radziwiłłs of Nieśwież who became even more richer after that. It was this branch of the family which produced the third Radziwiłł who married into the House of Hohenzollern many years after the disputes over Bogusław Radziwiłł's estate. In 1796, Prince Antoni Radziwiłł, the hereditary ordynat of Ołyka and Nieśwież, married Princess Luise of Prussia, niece of the late King Frederick the Great. Although he was one of the most powerful Poles, this marriage was not considered dynastic as he was not of equal birth with Princess Louise. Even more extensive research and consultations on the Radziwiłłs' status and heritage were held at the Prussian court and between genealogists in case of Antoni and Louise's second daughter, Eliza, who was the love and desired bride of her maternal cousin Prince William of Prussia, who later became King William of Prussia and finally the first German Emperor. Although the Prince's father, King Frederick William III personally accepted his son's choice and wanted him to marry his love and a close family member at the same time, there were some powerful movements at the court that did not wish a Polish noble lady by birth to marry the heir to one of the most powerful European royal houses. That included the relatives of William's late mother, Louise of Mecklenburg. Despite Frederick William III's efforts, including a request to the Tsar of Russia for adopting Eliza and thus, elevating her status, the Hohenzollerns were finally forced to reject the possible marriage between Prince Williama and Princess Eliza. In 1826 William married Augusta of Saxe-Weimar. Eliza Radziwiłł was for some time engaged to be married with Prince Friedrich of Schwarzenberg, but it failed to. What's interesting, the House of Schwarzenberg was a mediatised house and thus held equal status with the House of Hohenzollern. However, it was very much lower in rank, wealth and power than the Prussian rulling house so a Radziwiłł princess was good enough for them.
Continuing in the 20th century, certain members of the Radziwiłł family intermarried with European royal houses. In 1909, Prince Hieronim Radziwiłł, of a very different branch of the family than Prince Antoni and Princess Luiza, married Archduchess Renata of Austria, from the Teschen branch of the House of Habsburg-Lorraine, who was a first cousin of Alfonso XIII of Spain. The marriage was considered morganatic at the Austrian court. The couple's eldest son, Dominik Radziwiłł married in 1938 Princess Eugenie of Greece and Denmark, granddaughter of George I of Greece. I dont know if the marriage was considered dynastic, but I think it was, considering for example Prince Christopher's first wife, who was an American and a double divorcee but was accepted as Princess and an HRH.
To sum up, status of the Radziwills was never that of sovereign or equal with sovereign. They were sometimes accepted as marriage candidates for members of Europe's royal and princely houses but sometimes were considered unequal with them. An another powerful Polish-Lithuanian noble family, the Czartoryskis, were on the other hand descended in male-line from the rulling Grand Dukes of Lithuania from the House of Giediminas. However, IMO they were mediatised to Poland ages ago and lived as ordinary Polish noblemen for too long to be considered equal with the mediatised houses of the HRE. A Czartoryski prince married a sister of Archduchess Renata, Princess Hieronim Radziwiłł, but that marriage was also considered morganatic. The father and great-grandfather of Prince Adam Karol Czartoryski y Borbon, current head of the family, were married to Bourbon princesses but in France there was never such thing like morganatic marriage, and the Spanish Bourbons have much lower grooms accepted for their princesses in record, for example Count Andrzej Przemysław Zamoyski, who married in 1885 Princess Maria Carolina of Bourbon-Two Sicilies. Their daughters, Countess Maria Karolina Zamoyska married in 1923 her first cousin Prince Rainieri, Duke of Castro.
I know only one case of a member of the Radziwiłł family who became owner of an estate of the Holy Roman Empire and thus, achieved a higher formal status outisde Poland. It was Prince Janusz Radziwiłł (1579-1620), head of the Clavinist branch of the family, who in 1618 bought the Lordship (Herrschaft) of Lichtenberg in Bavaria for 160 000 guldens. From 1616 he lived in exile in Germany and the purchase of the land, preluded by a close involvement in local political life in alliance with the Protestant princes of the Empire, was a move to achieve the said status and become a rightful member of the estates of the Empire. His goal was to weaken the position of the Emperor as he wished that a possible war between the Emperor's coalition and the Protestant estates of the Empire, which he planned to financially support, would finally give him the desired status in a reward. What could be more interesting here in this thread, in 1613 he married Elisabeth Sophia of Brandenburg, daughter of the Elector John George. It was the first marriage of a Radziwiłł with a member of the House of Hohenzollern in history. In 1620, after seven years of marriage, Janusz Radziwiłł died and the Lichtenberg passed under control of his widow, who in 1628 married secondly Duke Julius Henry of Saxe-Lauenburg (and had one son, Francis Hermann, with him).
Janusz and Elisabeth Sophia's son, Bogusław Radziwiłł, who for some time in his youth lived at his mother court in Lichtenberg, married his cousin Anna Maria Radziwiłł, who was a wealthy heiress of her line of the family. They had one daughter, Ludwika Karolina, who eventually became the heiress and last member of the entire Protestant branch of the House of Radziwiłł. I don't know if Janusz Radziwiłł has finally achieved his goal and was considered by members of the HRE as equal but his son, Bogusław, continued this struggle to assume a sovereign power in his own way, by signing in 1656 a treaty with the rulers of Sweden, Brandenburg and Transylvania as part of their alliance againt Poland in the Second Northern War. The signatories divided Poland and Lithuania between themselves, the invaders, with Bogusław Radziwiłł achieving the territory of the entire Nowogródek voivodship as his sovereign realm. There are also no sources stating that Janusz's son, Boguslaw, ruled (or even owned? because as far as I know, Elisabeth Sophia held the estate) Lichtenberg after his father as it seems that he tried to gain even more than his father did in his own way. Moreover, he was not involved in the internal German politics like his father was and he dedicated his entire life and all efforts to strengthen his position in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and eventually to establish more and more independent rule in his Lithuanian lands.
Ludwika Karolina Radziwiłł, daughter and heiress of Bogusław Radziwiłł, was the second member of her family married into the House of Hohenzollern. She was extremely rich, having owned over 1,000 villages and a couple of cities. Her first husband was Louis of Brandeburg, son of the Elector Frederick William, whom she married in 1681. However, Louis died 6 years later. Widowed Ludwika Karolina married then in 1688 even grander than the first time, with her second husband becoming Charles III Philip, the Elector Palatine. Thus, Princess Ludwika Karolina Radziwill became the Kurfurstin von der Pfalz. She had three daughters and one stillborn son with him, while only the youngest daughter named Elisabeth Augusta Sophie had produced issue which continued the line of Janusz and Bogusław Radziwiłłs in female-line. The Kings of Bavaria were among her descendants. The Ludwika Karolina's vast estates in Poland and Lithuania were a subject of a long-time and high-profiled dispute between her Catholic paternal relatives from an another branch of the Radziwiłł family, other magnates of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and her German ancestors. The noble estates of Poland claimed that the so-called Neuburg domain, which was Luidwika Karolina's inheritance, cannot passed to the Wittelsbachs because by marrying the Elector Palatine in secret from the Polish government, she broke the prenuptial agreement of her and Prince Jakub Ludwik Sobieski, son of King John III Sobieski. Finally, the Radziwiłł lands passed to their agnatic heirs, the Radziwiłłs of Nieśwież who became even more richer after that. It was this branch of the family which produced the third Radziwiłł who married into the House of Hohenzollern many years after the disputes over Bogusław Radziwiłł's estate. In 1796, Prince Antoni Radziwiłł, the hereditary ordynat of Ołyka and Nieśwież, married Princess Luise of Prussia, niece of the late King Frederick the Great. Although he was one of the most powerful Poles, this marriage was not considered dynastic as he was not of equal birth with Princess Louise. Even more extensive research and consultations on the Radziwiłłs' status and heritage were held at the Prussian court and between genealogists in case of Antoni and Louise's second daughter, Eliza, who was the love and desired bride of her maternal cousin Prince William of Prussia, who later became King William of Prussia and finally the first German Emperor. Although the Prince's father, King Frederick William III personally accepted his son's choice and wanted him to marry his love and a close family member at the same time, there were some powerful movements at the court that did not wish a Polish noble lady by birth to marry the heir to one of the most powerful European royal houses. That included the relatives of William's late mother, Louise of Mecklenburg. Despite Frederick William III's efforts, including a request to the Tsar of Russia for adopting Eliza and thus, elevating her status, the Hohenzollerns were finally forced to reject the possible marriage between Prince Williama and Princess Eliza. In 1826 William married Augusta of Saxe-Weimar. Eliza Radziwiłł was for some time engaged to be married with Prince Friedrich of Schwarzenberg, but it failed to. What's interesting, the House of Schwarzenberg was a mediatised house and thus held equal status with the House of Hohenzollern. However, it was very much lower in rank, wealth and power than the Prussian rulling house so a Radziwiłł princess was good enough for them.
Continuing in the 20th century, certain members of the Radziwiłł family intermarried with European royal houses. In 1909, Prince Hieronim Radziwiłł, of a very different branch of the family than Prince Antoni and Princess Luiza, married Archduchess Renata of Austria, from the Teschen branch of the House of Habsburg-Lorraine, who was a first cousin of Alfonso XIII of Spain. The marriage was considered morganatic at the Austrian court. The couple's eldest son, Dominik Radziwiłł married in 1938 Princess Eugenie of Greece and Denmark, granddaughter of George I of Greece. I dont know if the marriage was considered dynastic, but I think it was, considering for example Prince Christopher's first wife, who was an American and a double divorcee but was accepted as Princess and an HRH.
To sum up, status of the Radziwills was never that of sovereign or equal with sovereign. They were sometimes accepted as marriage candidates for members of Europe's royal and princely houses but sometimes were considered unequal with them. An another powerful Polish-Lithuanian noble family, the Czartoryskis, were on the other hand descended in male-line from the rulling Grand Dukes of Lithuania from the House of Giediminas. However, IMO they were mediatised to Poland ages ago and lived as ordinary Polish noblemen for too long to be considered equal with the mediatised houses of the HRE. A Czartoryski prince married a sister of Archduchess Renata, Princess Hieronim Radziwiłł, but that marriage was also considered morganatic. The father and great-grandfather of Prince Adam Karol Czartoryski y Borbon, current head of the family, were married to Bourbon princesses but in France there was never such thing like morganatic marriage, and the Spanish Bourbons have much lower grooms accepted for their princesses in record, for example Count Andrzej Przemysław Zamoyski, who married in 1885 Princess Maria Carolina of Bourbon-Two Sicilies. Their daughters, Countess Maria Karolina Zamoyska married in 1923 her first cousin Prince Rainieri, Duke of Castro.
Sangre_Real016
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yes, we know all that.. but the notion of equal marriage among royal, meadiatised and high noble families differs in many ways..
for example, Battenberg princesses were considered good enough to be Queen of Spain and Sweden despite being born from an unequal union.. a Princess of Ligne was considered equal with that of a Portugese imperial prince despite the Lignes being non-mediatised.. a Hohenzollern prince was allowed to keep his line of succession despite marrying a Countess Raventlow.. the head of the mediatised House of Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg married a Duchess d'Otrante.. while Archduchess Elisabeth Marie of Austria's marriage to Prince Otto Weriand of Windisch-Gräetz was considered morganatic despite being a member of a mediatised house.. Emperor Charles I of Austria initially wanted to marry a Princess of Hohenlohe but was persuaded to marry someone of royal blood, so he married Princess Zita of Bourbon-Parma.. Princess Elisa Radziwill was deemed unsuitable bride of Emperor Wilhem I because many people at court said that Elisa's family bought their title and not earned it.. also, Grand Duke Vladimir Cyrillovich of Russia's marriage to Princess Leonida Bagration of Mukhrani is claimed to be unequal even though the the 1783 Treaty of Georgievsk guaranteed the royal status of the members of the House of Bagration..
what has been clear in this thread is that Royal, Mediatised and High Noble houses have different law to what is considered an unequal union..
for example, Battenberg princesses were considered good enough to be Queen of Spain and Sweden despite being born from an unequal union.. a Princess of Ligne was considered equal with that of a Portugese imperial prince despite the Lignes being non-mediatised.. a Hohenzollern prince was allowed to keep his line of succession despite marrying a Countess Raventlow.. the head of the mediatised House of Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg married a Duchess d'Otrante.. while Archduchess Elisabeth Marie of Austria's marriage to Prince Otto Weriand of Windisch-Gräetz was considered morganatic despite being a member of a mediatised house.. Emperor Charles I of Austria initially wanted to marry a Princess of Hohenlohe but was persuaded to marry someone of royal blood, so he married Princess Zita of Bourbon-Parma.. Princess Elisa Radziwill was deemed unsuitable bride of Emperor Wilhem I because many people at court said that Elisa's family bought their title and not earned it.. also, Grand Duke Vladimir Cyrillovich of Russia's marriage to Princess Leonida Bagration of Mukhrani is claimed to be unequal even though the the 1783 Treaty of Georgievsk guaranteed the royal status of the members of the House of Bagration..
what has been clear in this thread is that Royal, Mediatised and High Noble houses have different law to what is considered an unequal union..
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Sangre_Real016
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Brazilian Imperial Prince.
Oh, yeah.. forgot that one.. lolz
The marriage was not morganatic,but rather considered a messalinace...Morganatic is something which is official,while massaliance is something that is considered,but not officially acknowledged.
In difference to Archduchesses which married morganatically,Elisabeth kept her Imperial style and titles,while the other Archduchesses whose marriage was morganatic had to renounce their original-Imperial and Royal titles and styles as a consequence of contracting an unequal marriage...Among them were Renata and her sisters Eleonore and Mechtildis...
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Sangre_Real016
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I have read that even though as an imperial prince of the House of Bonaparte, Napoleon III was looked down by most if not all members of Europe's royal houses.. He was turned down by both Princess Adelheid of Hohenlohe-Langenburg, who was Queen Victoria's niece and Princess Carola of Sweden, granddaughter of King Gustav IV Adolf of Sweden.. to them, it is far below their dignity to marry into the parvenu Bonapartes..
and so, Napoleon decided to lower his prospects and chose to marry instead, Doña Eugenie de Montijo, 16th Countess of Teba, daughter of Don Cipriano de Palafox, 13th Duke of Peñaranda del Duero and 25th Lord of Moguer, a scion of a noble family who hand been titled since 1333..
thing is, most French looked down on the chosen bride-to-be, most of whom were expecting titled foreign royals.. others think that a Spanish countess is someone too far low in rank for the French emperor..
at the same time, other European countries, particularly Britain found this so called "humiliation" amusing and absurd, saying that a Spanish countess, of legitimate title and ancient lineage (her ancestors had been Lords of Muguer since 1333 and her great-great grandfather was Jean-Baptiste de Croÿ, 5th Duke of Havré, of the mediatised House of Croÿ and who's sister married Prince Philip of Hesse-Darmstadt, son of Louis VI, Landgrave of Hesse-Darmstadt and Princess Elisabeth Dorothea of Saxe-Coburg) being far to low of rank for French emperor who's ancestor were just Corsican commoners about 2 generations ago was insanely farfetched and laughable.. in their eyes, the House of Bonaparte was at-least marrying into an established noble house in the Spanish nobility, and that it was in-fact the Countess of Teba herself who was marrying beneath her station and dignity..
and so, Napoleon decided to lower his prospects and chose to marry instead, Doña Eugenie de Montijo, 16th Countess of Teba, daughter of Don Cipriano de Palafox, 13th Duke of Peñaranda del Duero and 25th Lord of Moguer, a scion of a noble family who hand been titled since 1333..
thing is, most French looked down on the chosen bride-to-be, most of whom were expecting titled foreign royals.. others think that a Spanish countess is someone too far low in rank for the French emperor..
at the same time, other European countries, particularly Britain found this so called "humiliation" amusing and absurd, saying that a Spanish countess, of legitimate title and ancient lineage (her ancestors had been Lords of Muguer since 1333 and her great-great grandfather was Jean-Baptiste de Croÿ, 5th Duke of Havré, of the mediatised House of Croÿ and who's sister married Prince Philip of Hesse-Darmstadt, son of Louis VI, Landgrave of Hesse-Darmstadt and Princess Elisabeth Dorothea of Saxe-Coburg) being far to low of rank for French emperor who's ancestor were just Corsican commoners about 2 generations ago was insanely farfetched and laughable.. in their eyes, the House of Bonaparte was at-least marrying into an established noble house in the Spanish nobility, and that it was in-fact the Countess of Teba herself who was marrying beneath her station and dignity..
Have to say that Bonaparte family were considered as untitled noble family...They also had noble ancestors...they were even descendants from many royal/noble families...here is the line from Charles "the Bold",Holy Roman Emperor to Napoleon I Bonaparte:
Emperor Charles "the Bald" of Holy Roman Empire,lived from 823-877
I
Princess Rothilde of France,died in 927
I
Count Hugues I de Maine,lived from 890-955
I
Count Hugues II de Maine,died in 977
I
Count Hugues III de Maine,died in 1015
I
Count Herbert I Eveille-Chien de Maine,died in 1036
I
Countess Garsende de Maine
I
Margrave Folco I d'Este,died in 1128
I
Margrave Obizzo I d'Este,died in 1193
I
Margrave Azzo V d'Este,died also in 1193
I
Margrave Azzo VI d'Este,died in 1212
I
Margrave Azzo VII d'Este,lived from 1205-1264
I
Cubitosa d'Este
I
Gabriele Malaspina, Marchese di Verrucola,died in 1289
I
Isnardo Malaspina, Marchese di Verrucola
I
Niccolò Malaspina, Marchese di Verrucola,died in 1416
I
Apollonia Malaspina
I
Giovanni Buonaparte,Nobile di Sarzana,died in 1501
I
Francesco "il Mauro" Buonaparte, Nobile di Sarzana,died around 1540
I
Nobile Gabriele Buonaparte,lived from 1485-1582
I
Nobile Geronimo Buonaparte,lived from 1520-1594
I
Nobile Francesco Buonaparte,lived from 1570-1633
I
Nobile Sebastiano Buonaparte,lived from 1603-1643
I
Nobile Carlo Maria Buonaparte,lived from 1637-1692
I
Nobile Giuseppe Maria Buonaparte,lived from 1663-1703
I
Nobile Sebastiano Nicola Buonaparte,lived from 1683-1720
I
Nobile Giuseppe Maria Buonaparte,lived from 1713-1763
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Carlo Maria Buonaparte,Nobile di Toscana,lived from 1746-1785
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Emperor Napoleon Bonaparte of the French,lived from 1769-1821
Emperor Charles "the Bald" of Holy Roman Empire,lived from 823-877
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Princess Rothilde of France,died in 927
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Count Hugues I de Maine,lived from 890-955
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Count Hugues II de Maine,died in 977
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Count Hugues III de Maine,died in 1015
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Count Herbert I Eveille-Chien de Maine,died in 1036
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Countess Garsende de Maine
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Margrave Folco I d'Este,died in 1128
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Margrave Obizzo I d'Este,died in 1193
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Margrave Azzo V d'Este,died also in 1193
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Margrave Azzo VI d'Este,died in 1212
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Margrave Azzo VII d'Este,lived from 1205-1264
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Cubitosa d'Este
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Gabriele Malaspina, Marchese di Verrucola,died in 1289
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Isnardo Malaspina, Marchese di Verrucola
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Niccolò Malaspina, Marchese di Verrucola,died in 1416
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Apollonia Malaspina
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Giovanni Buonaparte,Nobile di Sarzana,died in 1501
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Francesco "il Mauro" Buonaparte, Nobile di Sarzana,died around 1540
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Nobile Gabriele Buonaparte,lived from 1485-1582
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Nobile Geronimo Buonaparte,lived from 1520-1594
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Nobile Francesco Buonaparte,lived from 1570-1633
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Nobile Sebastiano Buonaparte,lived from 1603-1643
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Nobile Carlo Maria Buonaparte,lived from 1637-1692
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Nobile Giuseppe Maria Buonaparte,lived from 1663-1703
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Nobile Sebastiano Nicola Buonaparte,lived from 1683-1720
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Nobile Giuseppe Maria Buonaparte,lived from 1713-1763
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Carlo Maria Buonaparte,Nobile di Toscana,lived from 1746-1785
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Emperor Napoleon Bonaparte of the French,lived from 1769-1821
at the same time, other European countries, particularly Britain found this so called "humiliation" amusing and absurd, saying that a Spanish countess, of legitimate title and ancient lineage (her ancestors had been Lords of Muguer since 1333 and her great-great grandfather was Jean-Baptiste de Croÿ, 5th Duke of Havré, of the mediatised House of Croÿ and who's sister married Prince Philip of Hesse-Darmstadt, son of Louis VI, Landgrave of Hesse-Darmstadt and Princess Elisabeth Dorothea of Saxe-Coburg) being far to low of rank for French emperor who's ancestor were just Corsican commoners about 2 generations ago was insanely farfetched and laughable.. in their eyes, the House of Bonaparte was at-least marrying into an established noble house in the Spanish nobility, and that it was in-fact the Countess of Teba herself who was marrying beneath her station and dignity..
Noble families of/in Britain were never considered "enough" for any royal official standard for centuries and it is normal to them that a daughter of a Spanish Count with Scottish noble ancestry is more than enough...trying to say that they were also good enough,which they weren't by that standards...
But,it was not just about how one family is old,but to which position had that same family risen during centuries in the Holy Roman Empire and what kind of position it holds currently...many family had sovereign position,but lost it during time...and after that they were not counted as the same...
Sangre_Real016
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well, true enough.. almost none British noblewomen were considered good enough to be consorts for most of the members of royal families in continental Europe (save perhaps Lady Mary Victoria Douglas-Hamilton who married the Hereditary Prince of Monaco -- well, the Monégasque princely family were never known for their adherence to dynastic equality of marriage partners) and others such as Lady Mary Alathea Talbot, daughter of The 16th Earl of Shrewsbury, needed some lift from a European sovereign such as the King of Bavaria who made her a Princess of Bavaria in her own right so that she can equally marry Prince Friedrich Wilhelm of Saxe-Altenburg, Prince of Saxe-Hildburghausen..
this made me think, what if Napoleon III chose to marry a British noblewoman from one of Britain's oldest of most aristocratic noble families say a Howard, a Spencer, a Percy or a Cavendish? who they somewhat support the marriage or would they be more outraged? -- as i remember correctly, Queen Victoria herself said that a British duke is not really lower in rank that a minor German prince (referring to when her daughter the Princess Louise married the future Duke of Argyll)
but still, it was not just Britain who disliked the idea of a parvenu Bonaparte marrying a scion of their house.. others such as Sweden and other German principalities refused to be associated with the Bonapartes..
this made me think, what if Napoleon III chose to marry a British noblewoman from one of Britain's oldest of most aristocratic noble families say a Howard, a Spencer, a Percy or a Cavendish? who they somewhat support the marriage or would they be more outraged? -- as i remember correctly, Queen Victoria herself said that a British duke is not really lower in rank that a minor German prince (referring to when her daughter the Princess Louise married the future Duke of Argyll)
but still, it was not just Britain who disliked the idea of a parvenu Bonaparte marrying a scion of their house.. others such as Sweden and other German principalities refused to be associated with the Bonapartes..
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Well,to tell the truth,they were never considered as royalty...And considering the fact that the groom's grandmother was an actress,born Gibert,only adopted de Lametz,the marriage of the Hamilton daughter was considered a dynastic match(and just because of her mother who was Princess von Baden)...
I know that she married Prince Doria,but never known the story about her and Prince Friedrich Wilhelm and why she was created "Princess of Bavaria"...I mean,if she was created just for the marriage,why didn't she marry him?
I don't think so,because it would offer much more power and those families were noble in Britain,but were not so much of the "European stage marriage market" and this position would open many doors,no matter it is a Bonaparte...unlike German families,who were so much intermarried that they didn't need so much that as they were already connected to the most powerful royal families(by marriage,or were cousins,related and so on...),unlike British noble families...
Because of this kind of view,her friendship with the German Empress Augusta cooled off who was not willing to acknowledge the Battenbergs,and this view was also shared by Victoria's cousin Augusta,Grand Duchess von Mecklenburg-Strelitz...
It depends to what kind of families are we speaking about...if they were ranked lower in Gotha,it would be a great chance for them to establish some good connections,but if they were on top of the Gotha(section I or II),it would be a good position,but other families from the same section would snub them and in the end it would not be so productive,no matter how good the position of an Empress is...
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The Wurttemberg ruler was happy to have his daughter marry a bonepart as he was raised to the rank of King as a reward. The Leuchtenbergs, Empress Josephines brother and his descendants married so thoroughly into the Russian royal family that they were almost Romanovs and the current royal family of Sweden are descended from a Marshall of France. Europes Royalty were happy to do what they needed to doto keep their positions.
Well,not quite so at that time...King George III and Queen Charlotte of Great Britain refused to communicate with their daughter Charlotte as the Queen of Wuerrtemberg just because of their "Bonaparte" elevation...
The Bernadotte's of Sweden needed time and marriage connections slowly step by step to be treated as the "same"...
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Sangre_Real016
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true enough.. the grandest dynastic union the Monégasque Princely family ever contracted was with a princess from a cadet branch of the House of Guise.. then there as a Merode, a Hamilton and a Gramont.. the rest are minor nobles and commoners..
i am not sure myself.. all i know is that she still held her rank as a Bavarian princess even after her engagement failed..
true.. i can't remember any British noble family that were given such high regards in continental Europe or even close enough to be accepted by European sovereigns, save probably the Churchills who were given their own sovereign principality and a seat in the imperial diet, though they lost this privilege later on.. though most of these British noble family were extremely wealthy (some possessed wealth that rivaled even foreign royal families), families like the Howards, Spencers, Percys, Cavendishes, Hamiltons, or Seymours have made almost non-existent familial connections to continental Europe's greatest royal/nobles houses unlike some mainland families who share their spot in the part III of the Almanach de Gotha such as the Lignes, Rohans, Kinskys, Czartoryskis, Radziwiłłs, La Trémoilles, Ficquelmonts or Merodes..
Sangre_Real016
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it is probably because the House of Wurttemberg were known as faithful vassals of Napoleon I's French Empire.. It was even Napoleon I himself who elevated the then Electorate of Wurttemberg (previously the Duchy of Wurttemberg) to a kingdom.. King George III and his consort Charlotte of Mecklenburg-Strelitz even refused to address their own daughter as "Queen of Wurttemberg" because of this..
the Bernadottes, as then parvenus in royal circles took things slowly.. they started with a Clary, who is basically a commoner, then to a Leuchtenberg, then to the granddaughter of the King of the Netherlands, then to a princess of Nassau, then to a princess of Baden, then to a Battenberg.. basically, most their consorts are somewhat "second class" princesses, which means, they are indeed of royal blood, but were daughters of Grand Dukes and Dukes, rather by actual Emperors of Kings, the other is daughter of the king's second son, and lastly a princess born from a morganatic union..
Well,the House of Guise is a branch of the House of Lorraine which still exists,but it's rather called the House of Habsburg as they inherited the Austrian(Holy Roman) throne...so,from this point of view,it was really a good match...
That's why they despised "all those German Princes" which were poverty stricken,but again,thanks to Gotha system,powerful enough to make very good royal marriages(Saxe-Coburg case),unlike alll those rich British families that were almost sanctioned by the royal system...
Remember a case where Princess Christiane von Mecklenburg-Strelitz,only a grand-daughter of a German Grand Duke(and sister of Queen Charlotte) wasn't allowed to marry a British Duke(Duke of Roxburghe) just because of the Gotha rules...
True,they slowly upgraded their marriage standard,but the best catch they had was "only" a grand-daughter of Queen Victoria,Princess Margaret of Connaught...
Sangre_Real016
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true.. and these German prince are often most insulting called "German beggars" by Britain's oldest and grandest families.. also, i think British nobles tend to follow Burke's Peerage more than that of the Almanach de Gotha.. imo, mainland European nobles tend to marry individuals who are of better strategic alliance while the British tend to marry individuals who are better political allies or wealthy heiresses..
but there are also some instances that sovereigns allowed marriage contracts between royals and non-ruling nobles mainly due to the inheritance of the later.. one such example was when Prince Ferdinand of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha married Princess Mária Antónia Koháry de Csábrág et Szitnya, her being the sole heir to the vast fortune of House of Koháry.. also, despite ealier opposition, King Victor Emmanuel II of Italy allowed his son, Prince Amadeo of Savoy, Duke of Aosta, the future King of Spain to marry Donna Maria Vittoria dal Pozzo, her being the the sole heiress of her father's vast fortune, which subsequent Dukes of Aosta inherited, thereby obtaining wealth independent of their dynastic appanage and allowances from Italy's kings..
Well,it's natural reaction when you are snubbed by someone who is not as rich and by someone who virtually "steels" all important positions in European thrones due to official rank of higher/equal birth...It was not easy just sitting and watching from the side when you are unable to change things in your favor...
True,but the rules of the House of Saxe-Coburg-Saalfeld were different from the rules of this same house ascending to some throne...I mean not as strict...Equality was defined in this Ducal House as:"Fürstliche oder gut Gräfliche Häuser",which means that only "Princely or good Countly houses" were accepted...And after all,Maria Antonia was a daughter of a Prince...
This is an interesting alliance allowed just because the bride was very rich,daughter of a Prince and just because the second son was in question...if it was the Crown Prince it would be treated differently for sure....
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