The Royal Forums Coat of Arms

Go Back   The Royal Forums > Royal Highlights > Royal Genealogy

Join The Royal Forums Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #101  
Old 01-20-2013, 05:42 PM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: philadelphia, United States
Posts: 721
True and I agree to some point,but this was centuries ago,but if we look few centuries back Orsini family didn't make any significant marriage compared to the marriages they were able to make in the 16th century,for example...

Plus,for centuries,the only existent line of Orsini family was the collateral Gravina branch which didn't make all those illustrious and grand marriages...Those main powerful lines all died out in the 17th century...By the same concept Gonzaga,Sforza,Visconti and Medici existent collateral branches were treated and therefor couldn't carry on the glory just based on what their extinct cousins once had and they didn't...That's why they were only part III of the Gotha...

At the same time Rosenberg family began to rise(17th and 18th century),Orsini family was forced by the huge debts and their economical decadence to sell many of their huge properties...That meant less land,less money,less real power,less connections,less marriage market opportunities which made them fall back into the shade of the family they once used to be...

Although both families were raised in 18th century to Princes of the Holy Roman Empire,Orsini family became subjects of Papal states(until 1958) soon after that honor and did not associate much within an Empire,which lowered their overall rank among all those great families.

Unlike Orsini family,Rosenberg family sticked to the Emperor,held the immediate land and had a sovereign status and rights...And due to that they owned their later status and a better Gotha position...
__________________

__________________
Reply With Quote
  #102  
Old 01-21-2013, 04:39 PM
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Makati, Philippines
Posts: 131
also, how about the sovereign houses which ruled small nations such as the House of Boncompagni-Ludovisi (which ruled Piombino), House of Biron (which ruled Courland, now Latvia) or the House of Dadiani (which ruled Megrelia)? i don't think these families are considered equal for marriage purposes for grander families such as the Habsburgs, Bourbons or Hohenzollerns..
__________________

__________________
Reply With Quote
  #103  
Old 01-21-2013, 10:02 PM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: philadelphia, United States
Posts: 721
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sangre_Real016 View Post
also, how about the sovereign houses which ruled small nations such as the House of Boncompagni-Ludovisi (which ruled Piombino), House of Biron (which ruled Courland, now Latvia) or the House of Dadiani (which ruled Megrelia)?
Well,there was a Prussia-Biron wedding which was considered equal at the time,but it was after the fall of the monarchy...
There was also marriage between Princess Dadiani and Prince zu Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg which was seen as equal...
Also,Princess Agripina Dadiani,born Djaparidze had an affair Duke Konstantin von Oldenburg during her marriage and later married him as his morganatic spouse,thus becoming Countess von Zarnekau,despite the fact that Djaparidze(Japaridze) family was noble one dating back from 14th century and that one line of this family held Princely title in the Kingdom of Imereti...

Boncampagni-Ludovisi family didn't make marriage with the families outside Italian noble circle and we can't make any example of how would they be treated if...

But,those families were generally not considered equal because at the time of mediatization(when terms of equalness were formally made),those Principalities were already a vassal ones to some other subject,which was not the Holy Roman Emperor...

Although created by the Emperor in 1594 as an independent state of the Empire,Piombino later became the semi-independent vassal Principality of the Kingdom of Naples in the first half of 18th century until 1801 when it's last ruler from Boncampagni-Ludovisi family was deposed!

Mingrelia,ruled as an independent state by Dadiani became the vassal Principality of the Russian Empire in 1802,until middle 19th century when it just became "incorporated" with Russia for one million rubles which was paid to Prince Niko Dadiani...

And Kurland was the special case...It was in fact the biggest semi-independent state,which meant that the Dukes had the freedom to operate autonomously,but the Duchy was firstly the vassal country of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and from 1795 it was ceded to Russia...After that and at the time of mediatization Biron family were only holding the Duchy of Sagan,which was not an independent state within the Empire...The Duchy of Sagan was the part of Silesia,which was at that time part of Prussia,so rulers of Sagan were Prussian subjects and just members of the Prussian House of Lords...

Similar status like Princes von Hatzfeld or Dukes von Carolath-Beuthen had,which meant that they were Princes who were subjects of the King of Prussia,not the Holy Roman Emperor...

Unlike Birons,former rulers of Kurland,Kettler(Ketteler) family(not other collateral branches from which one still exists today as Freiherren von Ketteler) made very grand marriages which were seen as equal by all the families they intermarried with,including Romanovs,Hohenzollerns of Prussia,Hessen-Kassel,Hessen-Homburg,Mecklenburg-Schwerin,Sachsen,Nassau-Siegen,Braunschweig and so on...
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #104  
Old 01-22-2013, 11:46 AM
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Makati, Philippines
Posts: 131
i see.. though i remember Princess Pauline von Biron marrying a Hohenzollern prince, though i think its from a collateral branch too.. i guess the grandest marriage they had is with the House of Waldeck and Pyrmont.

well, Princess Agripina was not born a Dadiani so not sure if the family is considered unequal but as you say, a Dadiani princess is good enough for a Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg prince..

i guess there was a great different with marriage rules in both the middle ages, the renaissance age and later ages.. in the middle ages, heiresses of great fiefs and vassals were considered the best candidates for consorts that is why Eleonor, Duchess of Aquitaine and Isabella, Countess of Angoulême were chosen to become queens of England..

also, Eleonora de Toledo of the House of Alba is considered a good catch for the Medicis.. and her son is good enough to wed the daughter of the Holy Roman Emperor..

today, marriages between royalty and the nobility is quite rare and royalty to royalty wedding are even rarer.. iirc, the only consorts in waiting that are of noble blood are Countess Stephanie de Lannoy and Countess Mathilde d'Udekem d'Acoz while Duchess Sophie in Bavaria is the only one of royal descent..
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #105  
Old 01-22-2013, 01:09 PM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: philadelphia, United States
Posts: 721
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sangre_Real016 View Post
i see.. though i remember Princess Pauline von Biron marrying a Hohenzollern prince, though i think its from a collateral branch too.. i guess the grandest marriage they had is with the House of Waldeck and Pyrmont.
True,but you have asked about grandest families and Hohenzollern-Hechingen line was not Prussian Royal line...

Hechingen intermarried "equaly" with various families that did not belong to either part I or part II of Gotha such as Lamberg, Kinsky, Thun, Kunigl von Ehrenburg, Vetter von der Lilie, von Lutzau, Folch de Cardona, Festetics de Tolna, von Wildenstein, Hoensbroech, von Hohen-neufchateau, von Sobek, von Weiher...and after all,why not with Biron von Kurland?

Obviusly,various lines of the family were not treated the same in terms of rank and thus did not have the same "marriage rules"...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sangre_Real016 View Post
well, Princess Agripina was not born a Dadiani so not sure if the family is considered unequal but as you say, a Dadiani princess is good enough for a Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg prince..
True,but her Japaridze family also held Princely title,but it did not matter to the Dukes von Oldenburg...

And yes,Dadiani Princess,whose mother was a German Baroness was obviously good enough for some Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg Prince...so,she might have stand a chance to pass in Hechingen family as a bride for some junior line Prince,but she wouldn't be good enough for some still reigning families or perhaps for the Head of the family...

One interesting example of how important those family rules still are to some of the families,we can find in Prince Georg Friedrich of Prussia statement long before he married:

"Our family has very strict rules about marriage. Only God knows who I shall marry, but I want to be with someone who at least understands my responsibilities...So it is likely that this might be a person from the same background as mine."
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #106  
Old 01-22-2013, 03:19 PM
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Makati, Philippines
Posts: 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc23 View Post
One interesting example of how important those family rules still are to some of the families,we can find in Prince Georg Friedrich of Prussia statement long before he married:

"Our family has very strict rules about marriage. Only God knows who I shall marry, but I want to be with someone who at least understands my responsibilities...So it is likely that this might be a person from the same background as mine."
yes.. i have read about that.. but to think, a Countess zu Raventlow is considered good enough to be considered equal to a Hohenzollern prince, same as a more previous Countess zu Raventlow who also married a Hohenzollern prince long before Georg Friedrich's uncle.. now, seeing so how a scion of non-mediatised yet ancient noble house is considered good enough for the heir presumptive to the headship of the House of Hohenzollern, do you think other illustrious non-mediatised noble families such as Orsinis, Albas, Colonnas, Spencers, Rohans, Czartoryskis, Lignes or collateral branches of once sovereign houses such as Medicis, Sforzas, Gonzagas, Viscontis, Dadianis and Bagrations would have been deemed good enough to be George Friedrich's wife, assuming he didn't meet Princess Sophie of Isenburg..
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #107  
Old 01-22-2013, 10:57 PM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: philadelphia, United States
Posts: 721
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sangre_Real016 View Post
yes.. i have read about that.. but to think, a Countess zu Raventlow is considered good enough to be considered equal to a Hohenzollern prince, same as a more previous Countess zu Raventlow who also married a Hohenzollern prince long before Georg Friedrich's uncle..
I don't seem to remember any other previous Countess zu Reventlow who was married to the Prince of Prussia :(

After all,she hasn't married the Head of the family,which at the time of her marriage to Sigismund,Prince Louis Ferdinand was,nor so called Heir presumptive which was Prince George Friedrich at that time...

Like in the Russian or the Habsburg family,the rules can be soften for more junior members of the House...The future Emperor Charles I of Austria wasn't allowed to marry a Hohenlohe Princess,while his brother was allowed,I guess this could also be the case here...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sangre_Real016 View Post
now, seeing so how a scion of non-mediatised yet ancient noble house is considered good enough for the heir presumptive to the headship of the House of Hohenzollern, do you think other illustrious non-mediatised noble families such as Orsinis, Albas, Colonnas, Spencers, Rohans, Czartoryskis, Lignes or collateral branches of once sovereign houses such as Medicis, Sforzas, Gonzagas, Viscontis, Dadianis and Bagrations would have been deemed good enough to be George Friedrich's wife, assuming he didn't meet Princess Sophie of Isenburg..
Under present circumstances,I am afraid they still wouldn't be good enough for the Head of the family...Of all these families,imo,the closest to being recognized as equal could be Rohan and Ligne families...Spencers and probably Albas the least!
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #108  
Old 01-23-2013, 01:10 PM
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Makati, Philippines
Posts: 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc23 View Post
After all,she hasn't married the Head of the family,which at the time of her marriage to Sigismund,Prince Louis Ferdinand was,nor so called Heir presumptive which was Prince George Friedrich at that time...

Under present circumstances,I am afraid they still wouldn't be good enough for the Head of the family...Of all these families,imo,the closest to being recognized as equal were Rohan and Ligne families...
true but still, Prince Christian Sigismund retained his place in the line of succession and still remained the heir presumptive whereas all his brothers who married commoners lost theirs.. off all of Louis Ferdinand's sons only Prince Louis Ferdinand and Prince Christian-Sigismund retained their place in the line of succession.. given that instance, wouldn't a possible wife from the Gotha's third section would be deemed good enough like that of his uncle?

yes, i agree that a Rohan or a Ligne would probably considered good enough.. seeing that one is a Prince étranger and the other is a once mediatised house and both have intermarried with reigning families before such as Bourbons and Orleans-Braganza..

the same burden now falls to Grand Duke George Mikhailovich of Russia who is pressured to find a suitable wife of equal rank..
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #109  
Old 01-23-2013, 06:58 PM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: philadelphia, United States
Posts: 721
Obviously,one thing is to be equal for the membership of the House of Prussia...as various noble ladies were seen as equal such as Countess Nina zu Reventlow,Countess Antoinette Hoyos zu Stichstenstein,Lady Brigid Guiness,Lady Hermione Stuart(legitimate male-line descendant of Stuart royal family) etc.

But,these ladies would not be equal for testament purposes,as the testament defies who and under which circumstances can be the Head of the family...

Today in Germany,you can only challenge testament validity on the Court,but if the testament stays,they do not have legal right to go into the Headship issues as the monarchy ceased to exist.That question stays determined in this case by testament only or eventually in some other cases by family Law recognized by other family members...

What would have been if...we still don't know,as the that kind of situation still hasn't occurred and therefor we don't have any kind of example what would have been recognized and what would not...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sangre_Real016 View Post
yes, i agree that a Rohan or a Ligne would probably considered good enough...
Right,Rohan family maybe could pass as "Princes étranger"...

But,de Ligne family is not mediatized,but probably could go through as Hochadel or Uradel...it all depends on family Laws of specific Houses...some families have Gotha I or II requirements,some have Hochadel requirements,some have just adel belonging requirements,some family Laws were determined by the Head of the family in every specific case...In the past times some families required 8 or 16 noble ancestors.So,it all depends on the family and its Law...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sangre_Real016 View Post
the same burden now falls to Grand Duke George Mikhailovich of Russia who is pressured to find a suitable wife of equal rank..
Somehow,I don't think that he will be as lucky as his cousin Georg Friedrich and if that happens the complete mess will start over who has more rightful claim and why...
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #110  
Old 01-24-2013, 12:03 PM
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Makati, Philippines
Posts: 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc23 View Post
Right,Rohan family maybe could pass as "Princes étranger"...
does the House of Rohan still maintain their status as equals of the House of Grimaldi? also, a La Tremoille could also be considered equal..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc23 View Post
...it all depends on family Laws of specific Houses...
so, based on this, the probable reason why a Raventlow was considered good enough for a Hohenzollern is because of its Uradel status.. so, can a Countess zu Eltz, Countess Kinsky von Wchinitz and Tettau or Countess von Thun and Hohenstein be good enough for junior members of the house as well?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc23 View Post
Somehow,I don't think that he will be as lucky as his cousin Georg Friedrich and if that happens the complete mess will start over who has more rightful claim and why...
i somewhat agree with that as there aren't much protestant royal princesses available as most of i know are of Catholic faith.. possible candidates are Princess Theodora of Greece and Denmark or Princess Beatrice of York.. also, are mediatised houses good enough for the House of Romanov? can't remember any member of a mediatised house that have married into the Romanovs.. so, is a princess from the house of Thurn and Taxis or an Arenberg good enough for Grand Duke Georg?

also, is a scion from the family of the Dukes of Castel Duino, the Italian branch of the House of Thurn and Taxis considered equal to that of sovereign houses? so let's say Georg Friedrich married Princess Constanza della Torre e Tasso, would that be considered equal?
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #111  
Old 01-24-2013, 02:09 PM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: philadelphia, United States
Posts: 721
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sangre_Real016 View Post
does the House of Rohan still maintain their status as equals of the House of Grimaldi? also, a La Tremoille could also be considered equal..
Well,without going into who belongs to the House of "Grimaldi"(as only one line still exists today-Counts dal Pogetto),in genealogical terms I will regard it is a junior branch of the House of Polignac...But,as still a reigning family,comparations can't be made as the ruling ones often have advantage...

But,unofficially many people tend to look down upon Moncao rulers for various reasons and genealogically speaking some would maybe value more a member of the House of Rohan then the member Monegasque family...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sangre_Real016 View Post
...the probable reason why a Raventlow was considered good enough for a Hohenzollern is because of its Uradel status.. so, can a Countess zu Eltz, Countess Kinsky von Wchinitz and Tettau or Countess von Thun and Hohenstein be good enough for junior members of the house as well?
Of course,if the member of the Austrian House of Hoyos is treated equal,I see no reason why members of these more illustrious families wouldn't...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sangre_Real016 View Post
...are mediatised houses good enough for the House of Romanov?
As Prince Nicholas Romanov explained,they would be...Princess Maria Kirillovna married Prince Karl von Leiningen and the marriage was treated equal...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sangre_Real016 View Post
...is a princess from the house of Thurn and Taxis or an Arenberg good enough for Grand Duke Georg?
Yes,it would as they belong to mediatized Houses and his mother is also a member of mediatized Houses and was treated equal for it's purpose...
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #112  
Old 01-24-2013, 02:37 PM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: philadelphia, United States
Posts: 721
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sangre_Real016 View Post
also, is a scion from the family of the Dukes of Castel Duino, the Italian branch of the House of Thurn and Taxis considered equal to that of sovereign houses? so let's say Georg Friedrich married Princess Constanza della Torre e Tasso, would that be considered equal?
They would...Although a collateral branch,Castel Duino line were descendants of the ruling line,in fact it is a junior line of a junior branch which followed marriage rules of the House of Thurn und Taxis family and as such can be seen as equal...This junior junior line members were only naturalized in Italy,had an Italian title with a qualification of "Serene Highness",but they still did belong to a mediatized family with strict marriage rules...

Of course,it now all depends on the Head of the entire Thurn-Taxis family,as he can determine who can contract equal and who can't contract equal marriage within the House,but doesn't have the power to influence on it's members Italian titles and it's inheritance...

So,it could be possible that the Head of Thurn-Taxis family doesn't recognize the marriage of Castel Duino line as equal for the membership in Thurn und Taxis family,but the Head of Duino is the one who holds Italian titles and thus can determine that it is equal from his point of view and for the purpose of inheritance of the titles this line holds...

So,based on that,we could have Principe della Torre e Tasso who is at the same time Prince von Thurn und Taxis if his marriage is treated equal and Principe della Torre e Tasso who is not Prince von Thurn und Taxis,because of his marriage morganatic treatment...

Because of that,one must firstly know the relations between the Head of the entire family and the Head of the Duino line...what are the inner rules...

There were many morganatic marriages in this collateral Bohemian branch of Thurn und Taxis family...But,one of the best examples which shows it's strict marriage rules is:

Prince Alexander von Thurn und Taxis who married Countess Marie Valerie von Mazuchnelli,who,according to genealogical tables is still alive...

Although a Countess by birth,she was not seen as equal by the rest of the family and the marriage had to be treated as morganatic,while his brother Egmont's marriage to a Countess von Waldstein-Wartenberg was permitted and seen as equal...
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #113  
Old 01-24-2013, 05:33 PM
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Makati, Philippines
Posts: 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc23 View Post
But,unofficially many people tend to look down upon Moncao rulers for various reasons and genealogically speaking some would maybe value more a member of the House of Rohan then the member Monegasque family...
so i have heard.. i have read somewhere that the British Royal Family somewhat looks down on Monaco like when Prince Albert I of Monaco and Princess Mary Adelaide of Cambridge, the first cousin of Queen Victoria but Emperor Napoleon III insisted that Queen Victoria would not want a member of her family many into the Monegasque Princely family which has a history of marrying with commoners.. while Princess Berthe of Rohan was good enough for Infante Carlos, Duke of Madrid was considered by Carlist claimants as the titular Queen consort of Spain, France, and Navarre..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc23 View Post
Of course,if the member of the Austrian House of Hoyos is treated equal,I see no reason why members of these more illustrious families wouldn't...
i am thinking, why can't the Goth further separate it's third section.. i mean, even if a house is a non-ruling house, there is still much difference from regular noble families to that of the likes of the Orsinis, Albas, Spencers, Linges, Rohans, Kinskys, Pamphiljs, Czartoryskis, Colonnas, Radziwills, Borgheses, Sapiehas, Ruffo di Calabrias, La Tremoilles, Viscontis, and Merodes as these houses, even though non-sovereign have intermarried with sovereign and cadet/junior members of sovereign houses throughout the centuries aside for their more illustrious histories..
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #114  
Old 01-24-2013, 08:43 PM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: philadelphia, United States
Posts: 721
Rulers of Monaco,who have descended from "modest" Goyon de Matignon family often married nobles that would be doomed as commoners in "royal" circles...That's why they were looked down upon...Unlike Princes von Liechtenstein who always followed the rules and intermarried with ancient families,with the exception of Elisabeth von Gutmann,who was only a daughter of a Ritter...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sangre_Real016 View Post
while Princess Berthe of Rohan was good enough for Infante Carlos, Duke of Madrid was considered by Carlist claimants as the titular Queen consort of Spain, France, and Navarre..
Well,considering Carlos was a claimant and that the vast majority of most reigning families didn't want to intermarry with Carlists pretenders,because it would affect their diplomatic relations with Spain,his marriage to Bertha was more or less ok,as he already had children from his previous and more dynastically prestigious marriage...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sangre_Real016 View Post
i am thinking, why can't the Goth further separate it's third section...
I agree,putting those Houses in the same rank as some other Houses that formally belong to Gotha III part like the Houses of Albufera, Capece-Minutolo, d'Aquino, Bevilaqua-Ariosti imo is a joke...

Just try to compare those Houses with the Houses of Rohan, Ligne, Kinsky, Radziwill or Gonzaga...
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #115  
Old 01-25-2013, 07:26 AM
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Makati, Philippines
Posts: 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc23 View Post
Rulers of Monaco...often married nobles that would be doomed as commoners in "royal" circles...
true.. the grandest marriage contact they have would have probably with the House of Guise.. Unlike Liechtenstein which have intermarried with grand families over the centuries and still has a consort of noble birth to this day (Countess Marie Kinsky von Wchinitz and Tettau)..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc23 View Post
I agree,putting those Houses in the same rank as some other Houses that formally belong to Gotha III part like the Houses of Albufera, Capece-Minutolo, d'Aquino, Bevilaqua-Ariosti imo is a joke... Just try to compare those Houses with the Houses of Rohan, Ligne, Kinsky, Radziwill or Gonzaga...
I couldn't agree more.. i mean, we are taliking about families who helped to shape the history of Europe itself, who's wealth and prestige are more or less equal to that of the reigning family.. IMO, i think they should re-class the Gotha similar to this..

SECTION ONE: REIGNING AND FORMERLY REIGNING FAMILIES
(Habsburg, Bourbon, Wittelsbach, Hohenzollern, Wettin, Hanover, Braganza, Savoy, Hesse, Zahringen, Ascania, Oldenburg, etc.)

SECTION TWO: MEDIATISED FAMILIES
(Thurn and Taxis, Sayn-Wittgenstein, Arenberg, Furstenberg, Hohenlohe, Salm, Esterhazy, Windisch-Graetz, Isenburg, Lieningen, Lowenstein-Wertheim, Schwarzenberg, etc.)

SECTION THREE: DYNASTIC NON-REIGNING PRINCELY/DUCAL FAMILIES
(Ligne, Orsini, Radziwill, Czartoryski, Kinsky, Rohan, Gonzaga, Hamilton, Colonna, Alba, Visconti, Spencer, etc.)

SECTION FOUR: NON-REIGNING PRINCELY/DUCAL FAMILIES
(Albufera, Capece-Minutolo, d'Aquino, Bevilaqua-Ariosti, etc.)

i mean, a Hohenzollern prince marrying a Radziwill princess would be fine imo, seeing that a marriage of a royal prince to a princess from a powerful and wealthy vassal house would actually be fine.. same goes if a Bourbon prince marries a princesse étranger from the House of Rohan.. but a Hohenzollern prince marrying a Capece-Minutolo would certainly raise eyebrows..
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #116  
Old 01-25-2013, 10:51 PM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: philadelphia, United States
Posts: 721
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sangre_Real016 View Post
true.. the grandest marriage contact they have would have probably with the House of Guise.. Unlike Liechtenstein which have intermarried with grand families over the centuries and still has a consort of noble birth to this day (Countess Marie Kinsky von Wchinitz and Tettau)..
Yes,Lorraine tops their from 18th up to today intermarriage list,closely followed by Merode-Westerloo and Urach and Polignac....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sangre_Real016 View Post
...I think they should re-class the Gotha similar to this...
I agree with this conception,but these days it's more or less useless as there are no more monarchies that formally had to follow,for example,"royal marriages act",as Britain used to follow it or the list of equal families,formally made for that purpose by Habsburg Emperors in 19th century...That's why I somehow don't think they would bother to change something that would raise many vocals within affected Gotha families for no real purpose...

Even if they tried to change it,one must determine what is the criteria by which you determine which family was "grander and more powerful" and which was not so much...If there is no exact criteria,such as immediate land was at the beggining of the 19th century,that goes under subjective decisions,which may be risky...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sangre_Real016 View Post
...same goes if a Bourbon prince marries a princesse étranger from the House of Rohan..
Well,there were already some Bourbon-Rohan marriages which were considered equal,although those were Princes du Sang...Of course,if we exclude Orleans and Rohan-Chabot marriage which was also considered equal...Although this family agnatically does not belong the House of Rohan,it is an ancient family which formally traces it's roots more then 1000 years ago and still belongs to Gotha III part...
Apart from morganatic one,there was also a Hohenzollern-Radziwill marriage which was considered equal...Prince Ludwig,brother of Prussian King Friedrich I married Maria Ludowika Radziwill,who was the last one of this line of Radziwill family...she later married also equally Elector Karl Philipp von der Pfalz.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sangre_Real016 View Post
but a Hohenzollern prince marrying a Capece-Minutolo would certainly raise eyebrows..
I agree with you...This kind of marriage match would look interesting...In recent times,I think it would still be considered as grand compared to marrying a commoner,but again far less "important" compared to the other more prestigious Houses from this same section...
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #117  
Old 01-30-2013, 09:06 PM
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Makati, Philippines
Posts: 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc23 View Post
...these days it's more or less useless as there are no more monarchies that formally had to follow,for example,"royal marriages act"...or the list of equal families
true.. but til now, there are still some families that strictly comply with the rule of equal marriages.. and we cannot tell when some former kingdoms and empires would rise again (eg. Russia, Germany or Austria)..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc23 View Post
Even if they tried to change it,one must determine what is the criteria by which you determine which family was "grander and more powerful"...
well, i was thinking, we can categorize with the following criterias..

A.) Former Sovereign Houses
*** House of Battenberg (sovereign Prince of Bulgaria)
*** House of Dadiani (sovereign Princes of Mingrelia)
*** House of Boncompagni-Ludovisi (sovereign Princes of Piombino)
*** House of Biron (sovereign Dukes of Courland)
*** House of Urach (sovereign Kings of Lithuania)
*** House of della Rovere (sovereign Dukes of Urbino)
etc.

B.) Cadet Branches of Sovereign/Former Sovereign Houses
*** House of Medici di Ottajano (cadet branch of the Grand Dukes of Tuscany)
*** House of Rohan (cadet branch of the Dukes of Brittany)
*** House of Guise (cadet branch of the Dukes of Lorraine)
*** House of Nevers (cadet branch of the Dukes of Mantua)
*** House of Nemours (cadet branch of the Dukes of Savoy)
etc.

C.) Heirs Body to Former Sovereign Houses
*** House of La Tremoille (heirs body to the Kings of Naples)
*** House of Galitzine (heirs body to the Grand Dukes of Lithuania)
*** House of Spencer (heirs body to the Princes of Mindelheim)
*** House of Visconti di Modrone (heirs body to the Dukes of Milan)
*** House of Obolensky (heirs body to the Grand Dukes of Moscow)
etc.

D.) Dynastic equal Houses through centuries (a family has has intermarried with sovereign houses for at-least the past 300 years in a regular basis that were considered equal)
*** House of Linge (intermarried with Habsburgs, Orleans-Braganza, Bourbon-Parmas, etc)
*** House of Orsini (produced consorts for the Dukes of Parma and Modena for centuries)
*** House of Radziwill (intermarried with Hohenzollerns and Glucksburgs, etc)
*** House of Czartoryski (intermarried with Bourbons, etc)
*** House of Kinskys (intermarried with Liechtenstein, etc)
*** House of Ruffo di Calabria (intermarried with Saxe-Coburg and Gothas, Savoys, etc)
*** House of Merode (intermarried with Grimaldi and Schelswig-Holstein and with mediatised houses of Arenberg and Croy)
*** House of Toledo of the Dukes of Alba and Medina Sidonia (produced consorts for the Dukes of Braganza, Urbino and Kings of Portugal as well as Constables of Navarre)
etc.

E.) Houses which held offices of high/semi sovereign status for at-least 300 years in regular basis
*** House of Colonna (produced Popes)
*** House of Pamphilj (produced Popes)
*** House of Aldobrandini (produced Popes)
*** House of Montmorency (produced Constables of France)
*** House of Howard (produced Earl Marshals of England)
*** House of Cadaval (produced Constables of Portugal)
etc.

i think shortens the list of possible families to be included..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc23 View Post
I agree with you...This kind of marriage match would look interesting...In recent times,I think it would still be considered as grand compared to marrying a commoner,but again far less "important" compared to the other more prestigious Houses from this same section...
true.. now that the British Rules of Succession has been changed, i won't be surprised for all the pageantry and grandness if ever Prince Harry marries say for example a Princess of Rohan or Medici di Ottajano.. just imagine the grandeur of such union in comparison to today's royal weddings..
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #118  
Old 01-31-2013, 02:31 PM
Warren's Avatar
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 15,423
Quote:
*** House of Urach (sovereign Dukes of Urach)
Sovereign Dukes? I don't understand this one. The forefather of the current Urach Ducal line was Count (Friedrich) Wilhelm von Württemberg, created in 1867 Duke of Urach and sovereign of nothing. The King of Württemberg didn't hive off part of his kingdom to create an independent ducal sovereign state; it was no more than a title, such as that held by his kinsman the Duke of Teck, or that of descendants of Archduke Franz Ferdinand as Dukes of Hohenberg.

I don't believe the nominal, less than four-month "reign" of the 2nd Duke as "King of Lithuania" in 1918 automatically raises this family to sovereign status either. In any case they were never "sovereign Dukes of Urach".
__________________
Seeking information? Check out the extensive Royal A-Z
Reply With Quote
  #119  
Old 02-01-2013, 03:11 PM
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Makati, Philippines
Posts: 131

sorry.. yes, i actually meant them being Kings of Lithuania at one point in time.. though i have to agree that the four month reign is not praise-worthy..
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #120  
Old 02-10-2013, 12:55 PM
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Makati, Philippines
Posts: 131
also, how about the House of Zogu of the former kings of Albania? are they considered equal for marriage with other sovereign houses?
__________________

__________________
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 2 (0 members and 2 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





Additional Links
Popular Tags
birth charlene chris o'neill crown prince frederik crown prince haakon crown princess letizia crown princess mary crown princess mette-marit crown princess victoria current events duchess of cambridge engagement fashion genealogy grand duchess maria teresa grand duke henri hohenzollern infanta sofia jewellery jordan king abdullah ii king carl xvi gustav king felipe king felipe vi king harald king juan carlos king philippe king willem-alexander luxembourg nobility official visit olympic games ottoman president hollande president komorowski prince albert prince albert ii prince carl philip prince floris prince maurits prince pieter-christiaan princess anita princess astrid princess beatrix princess charlene princess claire princess laurentien princess mabel princess margriet princess mary princess mary fashion queen anne-marie queen letizia queen mathilde queen maxima queen paola queen rania queen silvia queen sofia royal royal fashion russia sofia hellqvist spain state visit sweden the hague visit wedding winter olympics 2014



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:26 AM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2014
Jelsoft Enterprises

Royal News Delivered to your Email!

You can get the latest Royal News right in your inbox.

unsusbcribe at anytime with one click

Close [X]