Royal and Noble Families: Dynastic Laws and Marriage Rules

[Marc23]

Those at the top make the rules, and especially those rules applying to themselves.

True,that's why sometimes some great families were overlooked due to lack of present connections on the top at that particular moment...

But,again,every family that has some impact wants to do something to either push themselves further or stay at the top or near the top...

 

[BrazilianEmpire]

I always found dynastic marriages a very interesting thing. And 'm totally in favor of it.

Here in Brazil, the members of the Imperial Family are still required to marry equally, in order to keep the dynastic rights. But this is not a law from the Imperial Constitution of 1824, it's just a rule of Imperial House, so, the Head of Imperial House (currently, Prince Luiz) can change this rule. But he has said that he'll not do this.

The last dynastic marriage of member of the Brazilian Imperial Family was in 1981, when Prince Antônio (the third in the line of susseccion) married Princess Christine of Ligne.

We are now waiting to see their children (Prince Rafael and Princesses Amélia and Maria Gabriela) marrying.

 

[Sangre_Real016]

I always found dynastic marriages a very interesting thing. And 'm totally in favor of it.

Here in Brazil, the members of the Imperial Family are still required to marry equally, in order to keep the dynastic rights. But this is not a law from the Imperial Constitution of 1824, it's just a rule of Imperial House, so, the Head of Imperial House (currently, Prince Luiz) can change this rule. But he has said that he'll not do this.

The last dynastic marriage of member of the Brazilian Imperial Family was in 1981, when Prince Antônio (the third in the line of susseccion) married Princess Christine of Ligne.

We are now waiting to see their children (Prince Rafael and Princesses Amélia and Maria Gabriela) marrying.

Prince Antonio's marriage to Princess Christine of Ligne is one fine example.. thing is, the House of Ligne, probably, one of Belgium's most illustrious noble families are not of sovereign or mediatised rank.. meaning, in theory, they are not dynastically equal to families of sovereign rank.. but the Lignes same as the Rohans and other more illustrious families are considered by some sovereign houses to be good enough for them..

 

[BrazilianEmpire]

The Princes of Ligne were mediatised in 1806.

 

[Sangre_Real016]

The Princes of Ligne were mediatised in 1806.

actual no.. their lands were sold to the House of Esterhazy von Galantha in 1804 and the lands were mediatised to Bavaria in 1806.. that is why the House of Ligne only remained as a Princely Noble House same as the houses of Radziwill, Czartoryski and Rohan.. if you would see the current list of houses in the Almanach de Gotha, the House of Ligne belongs to the Section III along with other houses such as Orsini, Spencer, Bagration, Visconti, Rohan, Gonzaga, Radziwill, Kinsky, Alba, etc..

pls check these sites for references..

Mediatization (1806-15)
Almanach de Saxe Gotha - Online Royal Genealogical Reference

 

[BrazilianEmpire]

actual no.. their lands were sold to the House of Esterhazy von Galantha in 1804 and the lands were mediatised to Bavaria in 1806.. that is why the House of Ligne only remained as a Princely Noble House same as the houses of Radziwill, Czartoryski and Rohan.. if you would see the current list of houses in the Almanach de Gotha, the House of Ligne belongs to the Section III along with other houses such as Orsini, Spencer, Bagration, Visconti, Rohan, Gonzaga, Radziwill, Kinsky, Alba, etc..

pls check these sites for references..

Mediatization (1806-15)
Almanach de Saxe Gotha - Online Royal Genealogical Reference

Well, the Head of the Imperial House by the time, Prince Pedro Henrique (1909-1981), considered that the marriage would be a Dynastic one, and this is what matters.

Thanks for the piece of information.

 

[BrazilianEmpire]

Here are all the Dynastic Marriages of the Imperial Family of Brazil:

- Pedro, Prince Royal of Portugal (future Emperor Pedro I of Brazil) and Archduchess Leopoldina of Austria, in 1817.

- Emperor Pedro I and Princess Amélia of Leuchtenberg, in 1829.

- Princess Francisca and Francis, Prince of Joinville, in 1843.

- Emperor Pedro II and Princess Teresa Cristina of Two-Sicilies, in 1843.

- Princess Januária and Prince Luigi, Count of Áquila, in 1844.

- Isabel, Princess Imperial, and Prince Gaston, Count of Eu, in 1864.

- Princess Leopoldina and Prince August of Saxe-Cobourg and Gotha, in 1864.

- Prince Augusto Leopoldo of Saxe-Cobourg and Gotha (Leopoldina’s son, considered a member of the Imperial Family) and Archduchess Carolina Maria of Áustria, in 1894.

- Luiz Maria, Prince Imperial, and Princess Maria Pia of Two-Sicilies, in 1908.

- Prince Pedro Henrique, Head of the Imperial House, and Princess Maria Elizabeth of Bavaria, in 1937.

- Princess Eleonora and Prince Michel of Ligne, in 1981.

- Prince Antônio and Princess Christine of Ligne, in 1981.

The next will be the ones of Prince Antônio’s children.

 

[Sangre_Real016]

Well, the Head of the Imperial House by the time, Prince Pedro Henrique (1909-1981), considered that the marriage would be a Dynastic one, and this is what matters.

Thanks for the piece of information.

true.. that is actually what matters.. and few would question that a marriage of a Orleans-Braganza prince to a Ligne princess would not be considered dynastic as the House of Ligne is among the few families from the Gotha's Section III that is closest to be considered dynastic..

no probs..

 

[BrazilianEmpire]

true.. that is actually what matters.. and few would question that a marriage of a Orleans-Braganza prince to a Ligne princess would not be considered dynastic as the House of Ligne is among the few families from the Gotha's Section III that is closest to be considered dynastic..

no probs..

Yes, the Dynastic recognition is all that matters. And the Lignes are one of the most noble Princely families in world.

Brazil has long tradition of Dynastic Marriages, and everything points that this tradition will continue with Prince Rafael and his sisters, Ptincesses Amélia and Maria Gabriela.

 

[Sangre_Real016]

Yes, the Dynastic recognition is all that matters. And the Lignes are one of the most noble Princely families in world.

true.. the Lignes are the few princely families of such distinction.. many of their scions have married dynastically with ruling families.. others would include the Rohans (probably due to them being Prince étranger of France), Radziwills (some married with the Prussian Royal Family), Czartoryskis (who intermarried with princes/ses of the Two-Sicilies).. the Kinskys have intermarried with the Princes of Liechtenstein for centuries.. that is the reason that we have discussed in this thread that the Section III of the Gotha needs to be amended since some families listed there are far more illustrious than others.. we cannot compare families such as Ligne, Rohan, Gonzaga, Radziwill, Visconti, Czartoryski, Kinsky, La Tremoille, Dohna, Pamphilj, Spencer, Alba, Merode, Ruffo di Calabria and Medinaceli to the likes of Albufera, Capece-Minutolo, d'Aquino, Bevilaqua-Ariosti..

 

[BrazilianEmpire]

And the Brazilian Imperial Family is one of the most rigid when regarding Dynastics Marriages. If the Lignes were considered good enough, they are good enough.

 

[Warren]

Prince Antonio's marriage to Princess Christine of Ligne is one fine example.. the House of Ligne...[is] considered by some sovereign houses to be good enough for them.

Yes, just as a Wrede was good enough for a Habsburg, etc etc etc. I think you are/were trying to find a one-size fits all rule regarding marriage equality within the Gotha and the simple fact is that there is no single overall rule and the application of rules is adaptable (Royal Catholic Bourbon and morganatic Protestant Battenberg? Fit for a King! Who would have thought?).

Different Houses take different stances and within their own familial conventions most have proved to be sufficiently flexible to allow "exceptions", whether voluntary or imposed by circumstance. Most of the families concerned have survived a non-Part I/Part II marriage; the reality is more that those who continue to insist on (or must adhere to) specific or rigid qualifications run into trouble. The current Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg impasse is one example, while the near-miss of the Bernadotte's death wish for self-inflicted dynastic extinction appears ludicrous in retrospect.

 

[Sangre_Real016]

with all due respect, never did i denied such fact.. i believe that it has mentioned multiple times in this thread that each family have their own rules for dynastic marriage.. what i was referring to is in "theory" which completely says by virtue on its rules that a dynastic union should be of people of equal rank..

throughout this thread's discussion, we have seen how Bourbon/Rohan, Grimaldi/Hamilton, Orleans-Braganza/Ligne, Hohenzollern/Raventlow, Zahringen/Beauharnais, Saxe-Coburg/Kohary etc unions were considered dynastic, while a Hohenzollern/Radziwill union was denied, Habsburg/Windisch-Graetz, Romanov/Yusupov union were considered unequl and a Romanov-Bagration union is in question..

this is the beauty of this thread.. people are able to know and be informed of the rules and the amendments done to these rules.. and that there is no one-size fits all rule regarding marriage equality within the Gotha

 

[Marc23]

true.. that is actually what matters.. and few would question that a marriage of a Orleans-Braganza prince to a Ligne princess would not be considered dynastic as the House of Ligne is among the few families from the Gotha's Section III that is closest to be considered dynastic..

Well,maybe the criteria for this dynastic marriage in this case was belonging to uradel families which de Ligne family certainly is...

Let's not forget that even every ruling family had it's own rules which followed...

 

[Sangre_Real016]

Well,maybe the criteria for this dynastic marriage in this case was belonging to uradel families which de Ligne family certainly is...

Let's not forget that even every ruling family had it's own rules which followed...

well, possibly.. not sure really.. perhaps the Lignes Uradel status is enough for the Orleans-Braganza.. but some families like the Romanovs doesn't really care about a family's antiquity, as you said, a Romanov cannot even dream of marrying a Obolensky princess despite it being far more ancient than them..

true.. some families would work for others, and some would not.. a Countess d'Udekem d'Acoz may be considered good enough to be Queen of Belgium, but not good enough for a Hohenzollern prince and it would take a Isenburg princess to make a dynastic union.. while a Countess Raventlow is good enough for the Hohenzollern heir.. tricky right? lol

 

[Warren]

It's not so much "tricky" but simply a situation where different families, different Houses and different States had diferent attitudes to the formalising of their internal rules, traditions and conventions. Some "marriage guidelines" were based on formal Family Laws, some were laid down and formed part of the State's constitution, probably most had no formal rules at all. In these cases decisions could be made case by case or through family consensus or tradfition, or by a Fürst's individual whim based on his likes, dislikes, personal disputes, family feuds, favours owed and favours owing, precedent, religious stance, social and territorial ambition, and of course the state of his balance sheet and cash flow.

 

[Marc23]

well, possibly.. not sure really.. perhaps the Lignes Uradel status is enough while a Countess Raventlow is good enough for the Hohenzollern heir.. tricky right? lol

Prince Sigismund was never an heir...he may be in line for an heir,but he was never an Heir...so his potential marriage would not be treated the same as the marriage of an actual Heir,which Georg Friedrich was,since his father died...

 

[Sangre_Real016]

Prince Sigismund was never an heir...he may be in line for an heir,but he was never an Heir...so his potential marriage would not be treated the same as the marriage of an actual Heir,which Georg Friedrich was,since his father died...

wasn't he his nephew's heir before he had his sons? well, despite that fact, his father considered his marriage to a Countess Raventlow dynastic, and say if Georg Friedrich failed to comply to his grandfather's will to secure heirs from a dynastic union, them Prince Sigismund and his sons would be heirs to the Hohenzollern dynasty.. am i correct? or could have Georg Friedrich marry a non-sovereign, non-mediatised noble say a daughter of an English duke, can he still legitimize his claim by basing such union with that of his uncle?

 

[Marc23]

wasn't he his nephew's heir before he had his sons?

He was just in line,but was never an actual heir...And sometimes the rules are different for the actual Heir and the others...

Emperor Charles of Austria wasn't allowed to marry a Hohenlohe Princess,while his brother was allowed,so the rules are different for the actual Heir and the rest in line...

well, despite that fact, his father considered his marriage to a Countess Raventlow dynastic, and say if Georg Friedrich failed to comply to his grandfather's will to secure heirs from a dynastic union, them Prince Sigismund and his sons would be heirs to the Hohenzollern dynasty.. am i correct?

I guess,as the Heirs to Hohenzollern dynasty are decided by unwritten House Laws...

As there isn't any written document left about the House Laws,during the Kingdom of Prussia and the Empire of Germany it was up to the Head of the family to decide consulting all other legitimate male family members... The practice of the house was clearly to set high standards to marriages,but they never mentioned them in particular.

or could have Georg Friedrich marry a non-sovereign, non-mediatised noble say a daughter of an English duke, can he still legitimize his claim by basing such union with that of his uncle?

I don't think so,as he is an direct Heir who contracts marriage as such,not as 2nd or 3rd Prince in line...It may be good enough to be considered as a marriage dynastic,but the rules for the actual Heir's marriage were more specific thanks to Wilhelm's will where he sort of "made" the Heir to Hohenzollern dynasty and an Heir to his fortune the same...and people can sometimes mix that,although it was the first time someone has written something that has existed as unwritten Law...So,I guess he sort of made the written rules for the marriage requirement of the Head of the family!

 

[Sangre_Real016]

...the Heirs to the Hohenzollern dynasty are decided by unwritten House Laws...

just a random question.. say Georg Friedrich wasn't able to marry dynastically.. then that means, Prince Christian Ludwig of Prussia, eldest son of Prince Christian-Sigismund of Prussia and Countess Nina Helene of Reventlow would be next in line and logically would be the heir.. so if that is the case, would he still be required to marry equally even if his own mother is a non-sovereign/non-mediatised noblewoman?

also, what if Georg Friedrich, Prince of Prussia or Grand Duke George Mikhailovich of Russia say, married The Lady Gabriella Windsor, daughter of HRH Prince Michael of Kent and Baroness Marie Christine von Reibnitz, would their union be considered equal? if i am not mistaken if King George V did not issue the Letter Patent that limits those who are considered as British Princesses, then Lady Grabiella would have been known as Her Highness Princess Gabriella of Kent.. am i correct?
.

 

[BrazilianEmpire]

Yes, she would have been HH Princess Gabriela of Kent.
But I'm not certainly if this marriage would considered an equal one. She can be the daughter of a Prince, but she's a commoner.

 

[Sangre_Real016]

true.. but that is due to the Letter Patents.. but ancestry-wise, she has impeccable royal ancestry.. her father the child of both royal parents (Prince George, Duke of Kent and Princess Marina of Greece and Denmark) while her mother is a member of the Uradel nobility with blood ties with mediatised houses as her mom's maternal grandmother was Princess Maria Heduvige of Windisch-Gräetz.
.

 

[BrazilianEmpire]

Yes, but, in my opinion, for the Romanov and Orlenas-Braganza's points of view, the marriage would be unequal.
But I heard that Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna will change the House Laws, if Grand Duke George decides to marry a commoner. I hope he finds a Princess.

 

[Sangre_Real016]

But I heard that Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna will change the House Laws, if Grand Duke George decides to marry a commoner. I hope he finds a Princess.

thing is, even Grand Duchess Maria's claims are being questioned by some of her relatives.. they said that Maria is a product of an unequal union because her father the Grand Duke Vladimir Kirillovich of Russia married Princess Leonida Bagration of Mukhrani..

thing is, the House of Bagration, probably the oldest house house in Europe who once ruled as Kings of Georgia until it was annexed by the Russian Empire.. Even so, the Treaty of Georgievsk which was signed by both Empress Catherine II of Russia and King Heraclius II of Georgia which guaranteed the royal status of the Bagrations.. but still, when Princess Tatiana Constantinovna of Russia married Prince Konstantin Alexandrovich Bagration of Mukhrani, their union was considered morganatic.. ironically, it was said that her father, Grand Duke Constantine Constantinovich of Russia got a lyyer from the Emperor and Empress saying that "they would never look upon her marriage to a Bagration as morganatic, because this House, like the House of Orléans, is descended from a once ruling dynasty." Nonetheless, legally Tatiana Konstantinovna's marriage was morganatic.. this is from where other claimants base their views that Grand Duchess Maria is not the rightful heir..

now if Grand Duke George would choose to marry to commoner wife, i personally think i would cause more damaged to their family's claim to the throne.. i think he should marry dynastically to ensure his family's claim..

 

[NGalitzine]

It just seems so odd that families that lost their thrones a century ago are still so hung up on the idea of "equal marriage" while those monarchies that have thrived and survived have abandoned the idea.

 

[BrazilianEmpire]

It just seems so odd that families that lost their thrones a century ago are still so hung up on the idea of "equal marriage" while those monarchies that have thrived and survived have abandoned the idea.

They're following their traditions. Nothing more.

The Brazilian Monarchy didn't fall because the members of the Imperial Family were marrying Royals, nor the Russin Monarchy. They were overthrown by coups.

 

[NGalitzine]

The reason for their fall is not terribly relevant. What is relevant is that they lost their thrones a century or more ago and today these people are just commoners with an interesting set of ancestors. It seems more than a bit antiquated for a head of a family to tell someone we can't recognize your marriage because it is not equal when in many cases the country they once ruled over no longer exists (ex. Prussia and any of the petty German states) so your wife and children cannot be HRH Princess.
I did read online that Archduke Karl is planning on de-morganautizing (lol) all of the Habsburg marriages since 1918 which will create a flood of new Archdukes and Archduchesses which is funny enough in itself but I guess a tiny step into the 21st century.

 

[Sangre_Real016]

It just seems so odd that families that lost their thrones a century ago are still so hung up on the idea of "equal marriage" while those monarchies that have thrived and survived have abandoned the idea.

its probably because those who only have the name tends to hold on to tradition while those who have power can actually bend the rules.. we'll that is how i think it is..

well, 50 years ago, one cannot say the same thing.. someone like Kate Middleton could have never become a prospect Princess of Wales, much more to be the Queen of England with her pedigree.. back then, all of the sons of Knud, Hereditary Prince of Denmark were stripped of their tittles because they married commoners.. and no commoners until Letizia was a prospect Queen of Spain.. Grand Duchess Josephine Charlotte said to have looked down on her daughter-in-law for being a commoner.. only those who have followed the tradition into marrying someone of noble blood are Belgium and Liechtenstein.. others broke tradition..

 

[Marc23]

Yes, she would be HH Princess Gabriela of Kent.

But I'm not certainly if this marriage would considered an equal one. She can be the daughter of a Prince, but she's a commoner.

True,but it can also depend from which point of view,as some Houses require only full membership of the a certain House for equal marriage purposes and Lady Gabriella is a full member of the ruling House,no matter she is only a Lady...

For example,if the choice for equal marriage would be between Lady Gabriella Windsor,as the daughter of a Prince,full member of the reigning House with most equal blood among younger royals,who is considered a commoner just by a twist of fate or the mediatized Countess von Graevenitz,equal to the royals by the birth right,but with merely noble ancestry for quite a while,what do you think who would be chosen and why?

 

[BrazilianEmpire]

Well, depends.

If Prince Rafael of Brazil decide to marry qualquer any of the two (Lady Gabriella or Countess), none of the two marriages would be considered dynastic by his uncle, Prince Luiz, the Head of the Imperial Family. Because the Brazilian Imperial Family only accept marriage between Princely, Royal and Imperial Houses.

But, in my opinion, Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna would accept as dynastic a marriage between Grand Duke George and the Countess.
.