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  #81  
Old 01-16-2013, 01:08 PM
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Also, i am not sure it it was considered unqueal, but there was a marriage between Prince Władysław Czartoryski and Princess Marguerite Adélaïde of Orléans.. their son, Prince Adam Ludwik Czartoryski had a daughter, Małgorzata Izabella Czartoryska who contacted equal marriage with Prince Gabriel of Bourbon-Two Sicilies, grandson of King Ferdinand II of the Two Sicilies..
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  #82  
Old 01-17-2013, 06:08 AM
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It all depended on family rules...I don't think that the marriage was treated as morganatic...After all,Prince Wladyslaw was firstly married to Maria Amparo,Countess of Vista Alegre,daughter of Duke of Riansares and Queen Maria Christina of Spain,which makes her half-sister of ruling Queen Isabella II of Spain...

Imo,all hose royal connections and his family richness of Czartoryski family made his daughter Malgorzata eligible for a royal consort...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sangre_Real016 View Post
are some German Mediatised families open to consider equal marriages with non-mediatised families?
It's very different from today...The current Head of the Hohenlohe-Langenburg family is married to a commoner

But,if we speak about the marriage rules of the time,it would be unthinkable,see Gleichen case where the Prince,who was the son of the Head of the family married a noble girl who was a grandaughter of one Marquess and one Earl...But still,she was not good enough to be treated as one of them and the marriage had to be treated as morganatic...

As for your example above...This branch of Hohenlohe-Langenburg family was very much collateral and the rules could be soften for them as it was in every family...Like Princess Isabella von Croy-Dülmen was good enough for the collateral branch Archduke,but would not be good enough as a bride for the Head of the family....It also helped that Piedita's mother Maria von Scholtz und Hermensdorff,Marquesa de Belvis,although a Spanish subject,was of German ancestry in male line...
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Originally Posted by Sangre_Real016 View Post
where does the House of Visconti stand now?
The same case as Gonzaga family,they were put only in Part III of the Gotha Almanach as they did not descend from the actual rulers of Milan,but were only collateral branch of the family that ruled in Milan that intermarried only with local nobles for centuries,not with the ruling ones...

The current Head of the Visconti family is Don Barnabo,8th Duke Visconti di Modrone,4th Duke di Grazzano Visconti, born in 1930...
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  #83  
Old 01-17-2013, 07:20 AM
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One should not forget that equality for mediatized Houses in Germany in the 1800s was a political way to appease those families who had lost the souverainity of their lands to other nobles. Napoleon in 1802-1806 forced the emperor to hand over the German territorities on the left side of the Rhine to France. At that time Napoleon already had allies in Germany's nobility: Baden, Wuerttemberg, Bavaria... to name a few. So he forced the emperor and the German parliament of that time (consisting of the nobles who only answered directly to the Crown, led by the prince-electors) to take away the souverainity of smaller territories and to include them as restitution into the lands of his allies.

But of course those families who were to be mediatized were not happy about acquiring a new overlord when to this day they had only to answer to the emperor. And the emperor still needed their support because they kept their lands and of course still had the support of their former subjects. So they were appeased by being declared "equal".

And you know how it is: those who actually have power don't need to be interested in such formalities while those who only have their social standing need to be overly serious when it comes to protect their class and "equality".

Thus a mere British marquess' sister could never do for a younger son of a German prince.... Ridiculous, really, and only understandible when you realize what the Hohenlohe-Langenburg had lost and what they wanted to keep.
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  #84  
Old 01-17-2013, 10:34 AM
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Good post, Kataryn. You have so much knowledge.
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  #85  
Old 01-18-2013, 05:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kataryn View Post
And you know how it is: those who actually have power don't need to be interested in such formalities while those who only have their social standing need to be overly serious when it comes to protect their class and "equality".

Thus a mere British marquess' sister could never do for a younger son of a German prince.... Ridiculous, really, and only understandible when you realize what the Hohenlohe-Langenburg had lost and what they wanted to keep.
There is a point to it,but the family laws of all those families were much older and they followed it very strictly before and after 1806...For example,Sayn family has its family law established in 1603 and they obviously still follow it,regarding the security of their wealth :P

And not only mediatized families followed it...We have seen number of cases where the ruling families followed those rules...some of them are Netherlands/Limburg-Stirum, Bourbon-Spain/Dampierre, Prussia/Radziwill or Sachsen-Weimar/Gordon-Lennox cases...

Of course,it all lost sense when the titles were abolished...
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  #86  
Old 01-18-2013, 02:10 PM
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"It all lost sense..." Not really. Titles may have been "abolished" but they and many of the families who bore them still count for something. Otherwise most Germans (and quite a few others) wouldn't know who Gloria TnT is; we wouldn't have an active subforum on the Germanic formerly reigning and Mediatised Houses; and there wouldn't be interesting and detailed discussion threads such as this one.
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  #87  
Old 01-18-2013, 02:17 PM
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Well I doubt too many of us would have heard of Gloria TnT had she remained a poor countess waiting on tables. It was her marriage to the much older bisexual prince who needed an aristocratic wife and to father a male heir, and her rather outrageous fashion sense and social life of the 1980s that brought her to the publics attention.
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  #88  
Old 01-18-2013, 02:39 PM
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Yes, quite (we are agreeing), the salient point being that she married a prince and became, for a while at least, "the Punk Princess". The TnT title, legally abolished half a century beforehand, is what gave her, and gives her, cachet. The tales of the yacht and crew of handsome young men wouldn't be half so interesting (and still repeated today) if Johannes lacked his princely title (abolished or not).
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  #89  
Old 01-19-2013, 11:40 AM
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I agree with you,but what I wanted to say that it all lost sense legally,but as the reality check says,not socially...

We have seen many families where this sense of equality hasn't lost it's meaning even today...Russia,Prussia,Savoy,Leiningen,Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg and some other important families,as we have seen,still care about it...
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  #90  
Old 01-20-2013, 10:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kataryn View Post
And you know how it is: those who actually have power don't need to be interested in such formalities while those who only have their social standing need to be overly serious when it comes to protect their class and "equality".
well, you are probably right.. that is probably the reason why Emperor Napoleon III after being rejected by many royal potential brides such as Princess Carola of Sweden and Princess Adelheid of Hohenlohe-Langenburg, he decided to marry Doña Eugénie de Montijo, 19th Countess of Teba, who despite having an ancient title is still considered by many to be too low of rank to be the Empress of the French..
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc23 View Post
We have seen many families where this sense of equality hasn't lost it's meaning...
that would be somewhat true.. i remember, Georg Friedrich, Prince of Prussia was expected to marry someone of equal rank and he soon went to marry Princess Sophie of Isenburg, but interestingly enough, his uncle and heir-presumptive, Prince Christian-Sigismund of Prussia married Countess Nina of Reventlow who is technically too low in rank but was considered dynastic (see previous post for this discussion).. and Maria Vladimirovna, Grand Duchess of Russia has lived her entire life proving to current members of the House of Romanov that her mother, Princess Leonida Bagration of Mukhrani contacted equal marriage with her father.. also, iirc, the current head of the House of Savoy is married to a commoner, and some members have married to non-sovereign families such as the House of Ruffo di Calabria, family of Paola, Queen of Belgium..
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  #91  
Old 01-20-2013, 11:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sangre_Real016 View Post
...Emperor Napoleon III after being rejected by many royal potential brides such as...Princess Adelheid of Hohenlohe-Langenburg...
This is true,Napoleon III first asked Queen Victoria for Princess Adelheid's hand,but the Queen,although personally horrified by such a proposal,said that only the parents of the potential bride could decide...The title of an Empress obviously didn't impress them much and they declined!

They sticked to the "old ways",played "safe" and married her to Duke Friedrich II von Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Augustenburg.Although Adelheid didn't become an Empress,she later became the mother of an Empress!
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Originally Posted by Sangre_Real016 View Post
also, iirc, the current head of the House of Savoy is married to a commoner, and some members have married to non-sovereign families such as the House of Ruffo di Calabria, family of Paola, Queen of Belgium..
It depends who are you regarding as the Head...

Savoy-Aosta branch claims that they have that right because Vittorio Emanuele married without the consent/permission of King Umberto II to a commoner Marina Ricolfi-Doria,who is only a matrilinear descendant of Marchese Francesco Doria and of some other minor noble families...

Now that Aimone is married to Princess Olga of Greece and has 2 sons,his branch has more chances for this than the main branch,as Emanuele Filiberto has only 2 daughters with Clotilde,whose mother Catherine is the daughter of Pierre,Comte de Pontavice des Renardieres...

Even the sister of Vittorio Emanuele,Princess Maria Gabriella supports Savoy-Aosta claims for the Headship of the family over her brothers...others,including constitutional jurist Guido Locatello,declared the marriage of Vittorio Emanuele to be in violation of Savoy dynastic law...
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  #92  
Old 01-20-2013, 12:03 PM
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i see.. but isn't Princess Olga of Greece a product of a morganatic marriage? her mother has a commoner and thus she was not accorded with the style of "Her Royal Highness".. so she was a princess, but not a royal princess..
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  #93  
Old 01-20-2013, 12:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sangre_Real016 View Post
i see.. but isn't Princess Olga of Greece a product of a morganatic marriage? her mother has a commoner and thus she was not accorded with the style of "Her Royal Highness".. so she was a princess, but not a royal princess..
True,but again,she is in the same position as Princess Marie Bonaparte,whose great-grandfather Lucien had lost dynastic rights due to disputes with his brother Napoleon I and at the time of her marriage to Prince George of Greece and Denmark,she didn't have any kind of prefix before her title of Princess...and the marriage was still treated equal by the Royal House of Greece...

Even Prince Christopher's(Olga's grandfather) first marriage first marriage to a commoner Nonie "Nancy" May Stewart Worthington Leeds was treated equal because of her money donations to the family,which was in exile...

Princess Olga is still a member of the House of Greece,but just doesn't have any kind of dynastic rights,which is in the eye of Savoy royalists obviously much better then a commoner with traces of noble blood through maternal line...
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  #94  
Old 01-20-2013, 12:50 PM
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i see.. but say, Emanuele Filiberto married a noble princess from a very affluent family, say a Colonna, Orsini, Medici, Visconti or a Ruffo di Calabria? would they think of him differently?
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  #95  
Old 01-20-2013, 01:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sangre_Real016 View Post
i see.. but say, Emanuele Filiberto married a noble princess from a very affluent family, say a Colonna, Orsini, Medici, Visconti or a Ruffo di Calabria? would they think of him differently?
Well,it's not the problem in Emanuele Filiberto's marriage,but in his fathers(Vittorio Emanuele's) marriage...

Savoy family didn't have the written list of "equal" or "non-equal" families like the Habsburgs had...It was only necessary that the the Head of the family approves the marriage,which at the time of Vittorio Emanuele's,King Umberto II didn't...and later didn't do it retroactively!

Based on that Savoy-Aosta branch claims that they have the right...Apart from that,King Umberto II himself was fond of him and he is also the knight of the Supreme Order of the Most Holy Annunciation,named after King Umberto II...he also has the support for his claim from the Kings daughter Princess Maria Gabriella...

This means that everything depended on the subjective will of the Head of the House which means that if he agreed-Colonna, Orsini, Medici, Visconti or a Ruffo di Calabria female members could be considered good enough...and if he doesn't they wouldn't!
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  #96  
Old 01-20-2013, 01:45 PM
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i guess that's true.. but iirc, the Savoys, as well as other royal families have intermarried with the Ruffo di Calabrias for quite a while now..
  • Don Augusto Ruffo di Calabria married Princess Christiana of Windisch-Graetz
  • Don Alessandro Ruffo di Calabria married Princess Mafalda of Savoy-Aosta
  • Donna Paola Ruffo di Calabria married Albert II, King of the Belgians
also, being mediatised doesn't make a certain family more illustrious than some lower ranking families.. i read somewhere that the mediatised Princes of Rosenberg added the Orsini name to their simply because the Orsinis were deemed more prestigious than their own despite being of mediatised rank.. also, is the House of Ligne mediatised? is some list they are considered to be mediatised, but some considered them to be in the Part III of the Gotha..
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  #97  
Old 01-20-2013, 02:26 PM
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Well,the family's development over the time is what makes it more prestigious...Through time the family "earns" their standing and honors.Not every family was able to save their power from,let's say 16th century up to 18th or 19th century...

Some families develop further,while some other stagnate and fall into the "grey zone"...

Orsini family is an old family,which has fallen into that "grey zone" in last few centuries,while Orsini und Rosenberg adopted Orsini family name and climbed through the social ladder by wealth,position,functions,marriages which at the end made them higher on the Gotha list...

Over the centuries,the tables turned for these two families...The real Orsini's had fallen back,while Rosenbergs climbed by becoming Reichsgrafen,Reichsfuersten and by political influence they had due to their position,marriages with some other powerful families etc...

Orsini family,in recent centuries,intermarried only local nobles and did not have the influence they used to have...and seemed forgotten on wider political stage,which gained honors and wealth...

de Ligne family,like some other families such as Nostitz or Nesselrode have sold their sovereignty before mediatization and because of that were not included into former sovereign families list...
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  #98  
Old 01-20-2013, 03:02 PM
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i see.. but it was said that the claim was sprurious and had no really evidence linking the two families.. the Orsinis have been powerful papal vassal throughout the centuries and produced consorts for sovereign states such as Parma, Modena and Ferrara but i do agree that they have escaped the limelight lately.. maybe because of the much practiced German mentality of equal marriage through the later part of the centuries.. Italian Sovereign states that the Orsinis once intermarried too didn't have the same mentality back then.. what was the greatest dynastic achievement of the House of Orsini-Rosenberg? i believe they have achieved much of their current status through political means.. imo, the House of Orsini still remains more prestigious than the Orsini-Rosenbergs, but i know that the gotha disagrees with me.. lol
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  #99  
Old 01-20-2013, 03:57 PM
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Based on that every Russian Princely family of Rurik descent is more prestigious then Romanov family...Not to mention Bagrations who are probably the oldest and longest ruling ones...But,as it happens-through time tables turn and a lot of former ruling families became less and less powerful,while some others climbed into the scene...

The result was in what Prince Nicholas Romanov once wrote about equal marriages where he observed how the tables can turn in time and once ruling family can become less important,while the other which was "still lurking in the woods" in time can become the center of the power:

" Russia, with its very Germanic notion of dynastic propriety, found itself accepting all the Almanach de Gotha rulings. If some unfortunate Russian Grand Duke wanted to marry a Princess Obolensky, descendant of the Grand Dukes of Kiev, who reigned in Russia, at the time his Romanov ancestors were probably still lurking in the woods, draped in pelts or wading through the marshes of East Prussia or Pomerania, he would have had to change his plans.

That marriage would have been impossible, but an Austrian lady, say a daughter of an Illustrious Highness, Count von Harrach zu Rohrau und Thannhausen, lord of the county of Rohrau, Freiherr zu Prugg und Pürrhenstein, lord of Starkenbach, Jilenice, Sadowa & Storckow, would have been acceptable! "

At the time Rosenbergs added Orsini to their family name,(17th century) they were just one of many Reichsgrafen families,while Orsini family was already famous and the memory of its power was still around,as it is today...

But,later,through time and political influence it became the opposite(power and influence concerned)...

During the 17th and 18th century,members of Orsini und Rosenberg family were politicians,diplomats and Generals within the Empire who contributed the success of the family which arose from the steady accumulation of land and loyalty to the Holy Roman Emperor...

Orsini und Rosenberg family intermarried with many influential families such as Löwenstein, Stolberg, Auersperg, Eggenberg, Kaunitz, Thurn, Trauttmansdorff, Khevenhüller, Dietrichstein, Wurmbrand, Lamberg, Thun etc.
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Old 01-20-2013, 04:26 PM
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yes, i know that.. that i am a bit disappointed on how a once powerful and most ancient house would be deemed lower in rank to a more parvenu yet ruling family..

my point on the later is that, the Rosenbergs, despite being related to most mediatised families have not achieve a dynastic marriage with a powerful nation who intermarried with Kings and Emperors.. the Orsinis for example have produced consorts for Parma and Modena and through them, their descendants such as Elizabeth Farnese, Queen of Spain who's great-great-great-great-great grandmother was Girolama Orsini, Duchess of Parma and who's descendants would later include kings of Spain, France, Portugal, Sardinia, etc.. i am not saying that this would make the Orsinis more powerful, but their history with intermarrying to sovereign families make their family tree more colorful in some way..
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