The Royal Forums Coat of Arms

Go Back   The Royal Forums > Royal Highlights > Royal Genealogy

Join The Royal Forums Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #61  
Old 12-12-2012, 11:39 AM
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Makati, Philippines
Posts: 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc23 View Post
...Fürst zu S-W-B was not interested how old ones family is,but of what "stock" and what rank it is...So,only equal family under 19th century status and of Arian descent...
hmmm.. so, meaning sons and daughters of current sovereign families such as that of the King of Sweden and Grand Duke of Luxembourg, seeing both have "non-aryan" consorts is not good enough for the House of Sayn Wittgenstein-Berleburg?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc23 View Post
...Imperial House of Russia didn't/doesn't "count" many Russian Princely families which belong to the House of Rurik,which ruled and was sovereign in Russia at the time Romanovs have not even set their foot out of the woods...
it really saddens me hearing this.. to think that the "true" House of Romanov, not the one who just took the name despite actual members of the House of Schelswig-Holstein had no such laws with equal marriages..

does this law extends to French Prince étranger families such as that of the House of Rohan, House of La Tremoille, House of La Tour d'Auvergne? seeing these families were once equal to that of the House of Grimaldi who was also Prince étranger in the French nobility.. i remember members of the House of Rohan married into the House of Bourbon such as Charlotte de Rohan married Louis Joseph, Prince of Condé or Berthe de Rohan who married Carlos, Duke of Madrid; the Carlist pretender to the Spainish throne.. do German families consider as equals as well seeing that they are blood descendants of sovereign houses (the House of Rohan are descendants of the Dukes of Britanny, the House of Guise is a cadet branch of the House of Lorraine)..

the House of La Tremoille is somewhat to the House of Spencer as they lay claim to be the heirs of the body of the Kings of Naples of the deposed House of Trastamara from their descent from Charlotte of Naples, daughter of King Frederick IV of Naples.. so like the Spencers, the La Tremoilles are descendants through the female line of a once sovereign house.. well, seeing if John Churchill managed to sustain his sovereign status that is..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc23 View Post
As you now mentioned Princess Paola Maria Sapeiha-Rozanska - it was her grandmother's greatest wish that she becomes the next Duchess of Feria.
wow.. never knew that.. at-least its nice to know even a member of the House of Orleans-Braganza had view regards to the Dukedom of Feria which is by the way held by the House of Medinaceli.. also, the House of Medinaceli holds one of the oldest noble titles around, if not the oldest i think, the County of Ampurias.. the current holder is Doña Sol María de la Blanca de Medina y Orléans-Braganza, 54th Countess of Ampurias, daughter of Princess Maria da Gloria of Orléans-Braganza, Duchess of Segorbe.. its sad that Rafael and Paola didn't click off, but i think they are happy with their current marriages..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc23 View Post
Maybe the House of Yturbide could get through,as it's original origins are from Navarre...
well, Emperor Agustin was from a noble family from the Navarre region of Spain.. but even though the nobility of his father is beyond question, the status of his mother was a source of speculation.. some said that his mother was a mestiza (half Spanish, half indigenous), some say she was an indigenous woman.. Agustin adamantly claimed that his mother was a creole woman.. nevertheless, the bloodline of his wife, Empress Ana Maria was solid as a rock.. her mother is a great great grandniece of Don Luis Sanchez de Tagle, Marquis of Altamira and a descendant of the House of Tagle, the richest family in New Spain, who can claim their ancestry back to 710 AD where is was said that a daughter of King Pelayo of Asturias married the founder of the family, a knight who fought for the king during the age of the Reconquista..
.
__________________

__________________
Reply With Quote
  #62  
Old 12-12-2012, 10:20 PM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: philadelphia, United States
Posts: 700
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sangre_Real016 View Post
hmmm.. so, meaning sons and daughters of current sovereign families such as that of the King of Sweden and Grand Duke of Luxembourg, seeing both have "non-aryan" consorts is not good enough for the House of Sayn Wittgenstein-Berleburg?
I am not sure if it's aryan in male line descendent or just aryan blood,meaning ancestors in general...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sangre_Real016 View Post
it really saddens me hearing this.. to think that the "true" House of Romanov, not the one who just took the name despite actual members of the House of Schelswig-Holstein had no such laws with equal marriages..
Well,it seems so...everything was about the actual power and political situation...why would they need "old blood" without any kind of political purpose or advantage?

And it seems that one Princess from the minor German Principality of Anhalt-Zerbst was much more politically interesting,even if her grandmother was only von Zeutsch,then some other Princess from one of the old Princely families from House of Rurik,who wouldn't have any kind of political connections as they were already subjects of the Emperor...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sangre_Real016 View Post
does this law extends to French Prince étranger families such as that of the House of Rohan, House of La Tremoille, House of La Tour d'Auvergne? seeing these families were once equal to that of the House of Grimaldi who was also Prince étranger in the French nobility.. i remember members of the House of Rohan married into the House of Bourbon such as Charlotte de Rohan married Louis Joseph, Prince of Condé or Berthe de Rohan who married Carlos, Duke of Madrid; the Carlist pretender to the Spainish throne.. do German families consider as equals as well seeing that they are blood descendants of sovereign houses (the House of Rohan are descendants of the Dukes of Britanny, the House of Guise is a cadet branch of the House of Lorraine)..
As there were many marriages between those Houses and German princely families,so I think we are safe to say that they would be "enough" for some German minor state,but not as a consort of the Head of the family such as Emperor,King...

Unlike Lorraine,the Rohans were always on "the edge",being and ancient family recognized by the French King as foreign Princes without any clear sovereignty,just claim...and as there were few lines existing,many members married to ordinary nobles and that's why their descendants were not greeted with an open arm into the reigning family...

The marriage of Duke of Madrid and Princess Bertha of Rohan was officially and technically treated as equal,but unofficially as a mesalliance...

From my point of view,they should be treated equal as there are many differences between the families that belong to Gotha III...on one side Houses like Rohan,Kinsky,Ligne,Gonzaga,Radziwill,Sapieha can't be compared with some other Houses like Aliata,Capece Minutolo,Moncada,Piromalo or even Otrante...and they all belong to the same part of Gotha which doesn't make a difference in rank of,let's say,Princess of Rohan and Donna Ruffo di Calabria

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sangre_Real016 View Post
the House of La Tremoille is somewhat to the House of Spencer as they lay claim to be the heirs of the body of the Kings of Naples of the deposed House of Trastamara from their descent from Charlotte of Naples, daughter of King Frederick IV of Naples.. so like the Spencers, the La Tremoilles are descendants through the female line of a once sovereign house.. well, seeing if John Churchill managed to sustain his sovereign status that is..
Kind of right,but de la Tremoille family through centuries family made to other equal families such as Bourbon,Hessen,de la Tour,Sachsen,Nassau,Salm,Aldenburg...while Spencers(apart from Lady Diana) didn't go out of their circle...

For that claim,they should have made such marriages to be considered serious...just like the House of Bernadotte in Sweden started from one Clary,through Princess of Leuchtenberg until Princess of Great Britain...every marriage gave them wide possibility of acceptance then the generation before and through those marriages they made their way up...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sangre_Real016 View Post
wow.. never knew that.. at-least its nice to know even a member of the House of Orleans-Braganza had view regards to the Dukedom of Feria which is by the way held by the House of Medinaceli.. also, the House of Medinaceli holds one of the oldest noble titles around, if not the oldest i think, the County of Ampurias.. the current holder is Doña Sol María de la Blanca de Medina y Orléans-Braganza, 54th Countess of Ampurias, daughter of Princess Maria da Gloria of Orléans-Braganza, Duchess of Segorbe.. its sad that Rafael and Paola didn't click off, but i think they are happy with their current marriages..
I think she would be happy seeing Princess Paola Maria,her granddaughter married to a Prince after all

I also think Duke of Feria should "genealogically" be satisfied as he married Laura,great-granddaughter of Don Gonzalo,Duke de las Torres

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sangre_Real016 View Post
well, Emperor Agustin was from a noble family from the Navarre region of Spain.. but even though the nobility of his father is beyond question, the status of his mother was a source of speculation.. some said that his mother was a mestiza (half Spanish, half indigenous), some say she was an indigenous woman.. Agustin adamantly claimed that his mother was a creole woman.. nevertheless, the bloodline of his wife, Empress Ana Maria was solid as a rock.. her mother is a great great grandniece of Don Luis Sanchez de Tagle, Marquis of Altamira and a descendant of the House of Tagle, the richest family in New Spain, who can claim their ancestry back to 710 AD where is was said that a daughter of King Pelayo of Asturias married the founder of the family, a knight who fought for the king during the age of the Reconquista..
.
Personally,don't think that kind of ancestry would impress that much the late Fürst zu S-W-B,who followed the rules of "his world" and wanted his Heir to marry within a desirable circle...

So,if Prince Gutav marries a woman who doesn't belong to that kind of circle,he would lose everything that he now has...So,if he wants to stay rich and have a family he would need to find a protestant Aryan woman of noble descent...
__________________

__________________
Reply With Quote
  #63  
Old 12-18-2012, 03:04 PM
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Makati, Philippines
Posts: 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc23 View Post
I am not sure if it's aryan in male line descendent or just aryan blood,meaning ancestors in general...
i see..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc23 View Post
Well,it seems so...everything was about the actual power and political situation...why would they need "old blood" without any kind of political purpose or advantage?

And it seems that one Princess from the minor German Principality of Anhalt-Zerbst was much more politically interesting,even if her grandmother was only von Zeutsch,then some other Princess from one of the old Princely families from House of Rurik,who wouldn't have any kind of political connections as they were already subjects of the Emperor...
true.. who would ever thought that Princess Sophie of Anhalt-Zerbst would one day become Empress of Russia in her own right..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc23 View Post
As there were many marriages between those Houses and German princely families,so I think we are safe to say that they would be "enough" for some German minor state,but not as a consort of the Head of the family such as Emperor,King...
so, these families were good enough to be consorts of minor German royals such as Meiningen, Altenburg, Waldeck and Pyrmont, Reuss, etc but not good enough for the Habsburgs or the Hohenzollerns..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc23 View Post
Unlike Lorraine,the Rohans were always on "the edge",being and ancient family recognized by the French King as foreign Princes without any clear sovereignty,just claim...and as there were few lines existing,many members married to ordinary nobles and that's why their descendants were not greeted with an open arm into the reigning family...
i see.. those this extend to the House of Guise? coz if i remember correctly, Mary of Guise became Queen of Scotland while her brother Claude, Duke of Guise married Anna d'Este of Modena, a member of the House of Este who's family line includes the House of Hanover..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc23 View Post
The marriage of Duke of Madrid and Princess Bertha of Rohan was officially and technically treated as equal,but unofficially as a mesalliance...
i see.. same goes for those members of the House of Hamilton and House of Beauharnais..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc23 View Post
From my point of view,they should be treated equal as there are many differences between the families that belong to Gotha III...on one side Houses like Rohan,Kinsky,Ligne,Gonzaga,Radziwill,Sapieha can't be compared with some other Houses like Aliata,Capece Minutolo,Moncada,Piromalo or even Otrante...and they all belong to the same part of Gotha which doesn't make a difference in rank of,let's say,Princess of Rohan and Donna Ruffo di Calabria
i agree.. families listed in the third section of the Gotha still varies greatly.. members of non-sovereign princely or ducal houses such as Orsini, Alba, Colonna, Rohan, Kinsky, Radziwill, Lannoy, Sapieha, Czartoryski, Borghese, Aldobrandini, Merode, Thun and Hohenstein and Ruffo di Calabria all have illustrious histories and some even became consorts of sovereign states.. some can't even be compared.. Colonnas, Orsinis and Aldobrandinis all have produced popes and produced consorts for Modena, Ferrara and Parma.. Kinskys and Thun-Hohensteins have produce consorts for Liechtenstein.. Czartoryskis and Sapiehas have intermarried with the royal houses of Bourbon-Two Sicilies and Orleans-Braganza for centuries.. the current Queen of Belgium is a member of the House of Ruffo di Calabria who have also intermarried with royal houses such as Savoy and Bonaparte.. the future Grand Duchess of Luxembourg is a member of the House of Lannoy and countless more..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc23 View Post
Kind of right,but de la Tremoille family through centuries family made to other equal families such as Bourbon,Hessen,de la Tour,Sachsen,Nassau,Salm,Aldenburg...while Spencers(apart from Lady Diana) didn't go out of their circle...
true enough.. also, are there any other British noble family who have intermarried with other European royal/noble houses? all i can remember are..

**The Lady Diana Spencer (daughter of John Spencer, 9th Earl Spencer) married Charles, Prince of Wales -- became Princess of Wales
**The Lady Louise Mountbatten (daughter of Louis Alexander Mountbatten, 1st Marquess of Milford Haven formerly Prince Louis of Battenberg) married Gustaf VI Adolf of Sweden -- became Queen Consort of Sweden (me thinks this is due to her being a Princess of Battenberg before she became a British subject)
**The Lady Mary Victoria Douglas-Hamilton (daughter of William Hamilton, 11th Duke of Hamilton) married Albert I of Monaco -- became Hereditary Princess of Monaco
**The Lady Emily Augusta Mary Pelham-Clinton (daughter of Henry Pelham-Clinton, 6th Duke of Newcastle) married Prince Alphonso Doria Pamphilj, Duke of Avigliano --became Princess Doria Pamphilj and Duchess of Avigliano
**The Lady Mary Alathea Talbot (daughter of John Talbot, 16th Earl of Shrewsbury) married Prince Andrea Filippo Doria Pamphili-Landi -- i believe that Lady Mary was once engaged to Prince Friedrich Wilhelm of Saxe-Altenburg, Prince of Saxe-Hildburghausen. In order to make the marriage equal, King Ludwig I of Bavaria, the brother-in-law of Prince Friedrich Wilhelm created Lady Mary a Princess of Bavaria in her own right but sadly the wedding did not happen and Lady Mary in the end married Prince Andrea Filippo Doria Pamphili-Landi.. with this, it think Lady Mary still had all the right to call herself Princess Mary of Bavaria even if her marriage with Prince Friedrich Wilhelm of Saxe-Altenburg did not push through..
**The Lady Brigid Guinness (daughter of Rupert Guinness, 2nd Earl of Iveagh) married Prince Frederick of Prussia -- i don't think this marriage was considered morganatic since their children are all princes and princesses..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc23 View Post
I think she would be happy seeing Princess Paola Maria,her granddaughter married to a Prince after all

I also think Duke of Feria should "genealogically" be satisfied as he married Laura,great-granddaughter of Don Gonzalo,Duke de las Torres
true..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc23 View Post
Personally,don't think that kind of ancestry would impress that much the late Fürst zu S-W-B,who followed the rules of "his world" and wanted his Heir to marry within a desirable circle...

So,if Prince Gutav marries a woman who doesn't belong to that kind of circle,he would lose everything that he now has...So,if he wants to stay rich and have a family he would need to find a protestant Aryan woman of noble descent...
i see.. so let's say that the descendants of Emperor Agustin I and Empress Ana Maria did not intermarried with the German Gotzen family and say married instead members of non-aryan noble houses, then they would still be not enough despite being descendants of a once sovereign house and a really ancient house respectively?.. i see..
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #64  
Old 12-18-2012, 03:28 PM
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Makati, Philippines
Posts: 131
also, i have read that the House of Massimo, who according to its own legends say that they are descendants of Quintus Fabius Maximus who lived somewhere during 200 BC, have intermarried with royal houses such as the House of Wettin, House of Bourbon and House of Savoy.. is the most ancient standing of the family enough to consider members of this house to marry with royal families?
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #65  
Old 12-19-2012, 11:31 AM
Warren's Avatar
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 15,256
The concept of "Mediatised Houses" and the promise to those families of equal marriage rights as compensation for their loss of sovereign rights was more or less formalised at the Congress of Vienna (along with the newly-created Kingdoms, Grand Duchies etc). So in terms of 'equal' marriages within the Gotha under those revisions, we're really looking at the post-1806 (Napoleon's mediatisations) and post-1815 landscape.
__________________
Seeking information? Check out the extensive Royal A-Z
Reply With Quote
  #66  
Old 12-22-2012, 07:34 AM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: philadelphia, United States
Posts: 700
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sangre_Real016 View Post
i see.. so let's say that the descendants of Emperor Agustin I and Empress Ana Maria did not intermarried with the German Gotzen family and say married instead members of non-aryan noble houses, then they would still be not enough despite being descendants of a once sovereign house and a really ancient house respectively?.. i see..
To answer the question-that means that every aspect of the will should be in it's own place if he wants to keep what he has now and that is private inheritance created for him under testament with the termination condition...that includes an aspect of "aryan descent",whatever this exactly means...So,according to his grandfather,a marriage to a non aryan noble is out of the question.

In other words,if he marries someone without "the circle",his marriage will be fully legal and he would retain his position as Prince(although there are no legal titles in Germany),he would retain his position as a full member of the family etc...but,he will lose his privately inherited fortune...he tried to annul the will of his grandfather in the German Court,but he failed,as everyone of us has the right to determine what will be with our private belongings after our death and under what conditions someone could inherit-of course,if the testament is not contrary to general public policy...
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #67  
Old 12-22-2012, 07:47 AM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: philadelphia, United States
Posts: 700
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sangre_Real016 View Post

true enough.. also, are there any other British noble family who have intermarried with other European royal/noble houses? all i can remember are..


**The Lady Mary Victoria Douglas-Hamilton (daughter of William Hamilton, 11th Duke of Hamilton) married Albert I of Monaco -- became Hereditary Princess of Monaco
Her brother William,Duke of Hamilton and Brandon married Lady Mary,daughter of William,Duke of Manchester and German Countess,Luise Friederike Auguste von Alten,whose grandmother descended from the Kinsky family...


Well,if the British noble families intermarried with Houses from Gotha 1 or 2 families those marriages would,in most of the cases,be treated as morganatic...(such as Sachsen-Weimar/Gordon or Hohenlohe-Langenburg/Seymour marriage)


But,there were many other cases of British-German noble marriages,but those German families that intermarried with the British noble ones did not belong to either part 1 or 2 of the Gotha Almanach:


Countess Anna Kinsky von Wchinitz und Tettau became Lady Goodenough upon her marriage...

Also Maud Sarah Hamilton,granddaughter of Lord George Hamilton and great-granddaughter of James Hamilton,Duke of Abercorn and Henry Lascelles,Earl of Harewood,married Count Manfred Czernin von und zu Chudenitz...

Again,Honorable Lucy Katherine Beckett,daughter of Lord Grimthorpe married Count Otto Czernin von und zu Chudenitz...

Count Julius Hamilton of Neuberg married Countesses Maria Ernestina and Maria Helena von Starhemberg...

Frances Mary Hamilton,daughter of Admiral Sir Edward Jospeh Hamilton married William,Baron von Donop...

Sarah Milicent Hermione Spencer-Churchill,daughter of Sir Winston Chruchill married Baron Victor von Samek...

Mary Day Beauclerk,granddaughter of Lord Sidney Beauclerk and great-granddaughter of Charles Stuart Beauclerk,Duke of St.Albans married Count Franz von Jenison-Walworth...

Charles Francis Mark Fitzroy,great-grandson of Lord William Fitzroy married Baroness Irmgard von Dincklage...

Hugh Hepburn Scott,6th Lord Polwarth married Countess Harriet von Brühl...

Alicia Maria Carpenter,daughter of 2nd Lord Carpenter married Counbt Hans Moritz von Brühl...

Richard Meade,Earl of Clanwilliam and Lord Guilford de Gillhall married Countess Maria Carolina von Thun und Hohenstein...

Lady Celina Meade,daughter of Earl Richard of Clanwilliam,married Count Karl Johann von und zu Clam-Martinic...

Michael Anthony,13th Lord Aylmer married Countess Magdalena Sophie von Attems...

William Spencer,son of Lord Charles Spencer married Countess Sophie von Jenison-Walworth...

Heriett Carolina Octavia Spencer,daughter of William and granddaughter of Lord Charles Spencer married Count Karl Theodor von Westerholt und Gysenberg...

Alexander Dundas McEwen,6th Laird of Bardrochat married Countess Cecilie von Weikersheim,morganatic offspring of Hohenlohe-Langenburg family...
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #68  
Old 12-22-2012, 07:52 AM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: philadelphia, United States
Posts: 700
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sangre_Real016 View Post
also, i have read that the House of Massimo, who according to its own legends say that they are descendants of Quintus Fabius Maximus who lived somewhere during 200 BC, have intermarried with royal houses such as the House of Wettin, House of Bourbon and House of Savoy.. is the most ancient standing of the family enough to consider members of this house to marry with royal families?
As Warren said,according to the rules after 1815-basically no-as it doesn't get into part 1 or 2 of the Gotha...but if the Head of the family approves of the marriage there could be a way...but don't think it would "work" for a 19th century marriage of the Head of the family...
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #69  
Old 12-22-2012, 03:52 PM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: philadelphia, United States
Posts: 700
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sangre_Real016 View Post
**The Lady Louise Mountbatten (daughter of Louis Alexander Mountbatten, 1st Marquess of Milford Haven formerly Prince Louis of Battenberg) married Gustaf VI Adolf of Sweden -- became Queen Consort of Sweden (me thinks this is due to her being a Princess of Battenberg before she became a British subject)
Ough,that's a very hard question...

When visited Hessen,Lord Louis Mountbatten signed himself as "Prinz von Battenberg",and there wasn't any law to forbid such thing as his family never officially renounced their German titles,just officially stopped using them-as British subjects-in exchange for the British titles after 1917...and that applied just for British reigning soil...

When someone asked his daughter Patricia about that signature she said that it was totally blown out of proportion by the British press,as Lord Louis Mountbatten did it while being away on a holiday...

Similar case to Hohenlohe/Semour case...Laura Seymour,wife of Prince Victor was decreed Princess Laura in Britain,but this did apply just for the British soil,as outside of Britain,she was only Laura,Countess von Gleichen as her title of Princess did not "count" outside Britain...

The same as Lady Augusta Gordon-Lennox was in Britain by decree of Queen Victoria-Princess Augusta and outside Britain,she was just "plain" Augusta,Countess von Dornburg as Sachsen-Weimar family did not want to accept her,even if she was a daughter of a richest Duke in Britain...as for them,she simply wasn't "good enough" to be one of them...Queen Victoria thought this decision of the family was absurd,but just couldn't make any influence towards them on that subject...

So,based on that,in case of Lady Louise Mountbatten there were ways to sideline and avoid the effect of downgrading the family titles...unofficially in the eyes of many royal/noble families she was still a Princess,but,officially,no matter what,she was still morganatic offspring that needed a little bit of "lift" from her fully royal cousins to be officially treated as one of them...

After all,at the time of her marriage(in 1923) there were still living members of the House of Battenberg(not Mountbatten),with her uncle Prince Franz Josef and his wife Ana still being alive...
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #70  
Old 12-22-2012, 04:21 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Toronto (ON) & London (UK), Canada
Posts: 5,261
Lady Louise Mountbatten was accepted as the wife of the Swedish Crown Prince after the British Court sent the list of members of the BRF to the Swedish Court. Lady Louise had remained on the list of members of the British royal family after the 1917 changes to titles. Had she not been confirmed as a member of the BRF she would not have been acceptable at that time as the wife of the Swedish Crown Prince.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #71  
Old 12-22-2012, 04:49 PM
Artemisia's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Yerevan, Armenia
Posts: 5,425


That's true. When news of courtship of the then Crown Prince and Lady Louise Mountbatten surfaces, the Swedish Foreign Ministry sent an official request to the British Government to clarify Louise's position, to see whether she was a "suitable" wife under Section 5 of the succession act. The British Government's formal response was that although she was no longer a Princess, Lady Louise was considered to be part of the British Royal Family. The Swedish Government then announced that there were no obstacles for the union and they considered the question of equality of the marriage closed.
Reply With Quote
  #72  
Old 12-22-2012, 05:08 PM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: philadelphia, United States
Posts: 700
Quote:
Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post
Lady Louise Mountbatten was accepted as the wife of the Swedish Crown Prince after the British Court sent the list of members of the BRF to the Swedish Court. Lady Louise had remained on the list of members of the British royal family after the 1917 changes to titles.
Similar to granting HRH to Ena by her uncle upon her marriage to King Alfonso XIII,so that the marriage would officially seem as equal...
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #73  
Old 12-22-2012, 05:48 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Toronto (ON) & London (UK), Canada
Posts: 5,261
Well Lady Louise had been on the list when she was HSH Princess of Battenberg and remained on the list as Lady Louise so in Britain her membership in the BRF was never in question and there was no need to elevate her in status to please a foreign court.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #74  
Old 12-22-2012, 05:58 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Toronto (ON) & London (UK), Canada
Posts: 5,261
^^^^
Louis Mountbatten was a minor when the 1917 changes happened. After 1918 it was pretty much a moot point since Germany abolished titles and they could only be used as surnames.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #75  
Old 12-22-2012, 06:42 PM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: philadelphia, United States
Posts: 700
Quote:
Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post
Well Lady Louise had been on the list when she was HSH Princess of Battenberg and remained on the list as Lady Louise so in Britain her membership in the BRF was never in question and there was no need to elevate her in status to please a foreign court.
Everything depended on the Laws of the House one wanted to marry into...

They opted to elevate the status of her cousin Ena and grant her Royal Highness in order to please the Spanish court,who thought that Ena was below their standard and that she should be married as HRH...

From April 3rd 1906 until her marriage,almost 2 months later,she was Her Royal Highness Princess Victoria Eugenie von Battenberg based on her elevation of status just in order to please the foreign court...

Even before that,Queen Victoria granted her family the prefix of "Highness",instead of "Serene Highness",even though they were either way members of the royal family...

If a membership of the royal family was the only needed thing,they would not feel the need to elevate the family status,as they already were members of the royal family,but not dynasty...

Obviously,the fully blue-blooded family members thought that elevating the family was needed...

The reason might be many "other" views on Battenberg family,such as the one of the Imperial family of Germany(Emperor Wilhelm I,Empress Augusta Katharina and Wilhelm II after) and even some members of the British family,such as Grand Duchess Augusta,who was not that fond of Battenbergs,even though her own niece,Queen Mary was of morganatic blood...
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #76  
Old 12-22-2012, 06:47 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Toronto (ON) & London (UK), Canada
Posts: 5,261
I think Edward VII cared more about such things as styles and titles than his son George V. It was Edward VII who gave Ena the style of HRH even though she was not a Princess of GB. I doubt if his son would have done the same thing.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #77  
Old 12-22-2012, 07:20 PM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: philadelphia, United States
Posts: 700
Quote:
Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post
I think Edward VII cared more about such things as styles and titles than his son George V. It was Edward VII who gave Ena the style of HRH even though she was not a Princess of GB. I doubt if his son would have done the same thing.

I agree with you...

But even Edward VII did this only when she was about to marry the King of Spain,not feeling he should to do it before,as there was no need...
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #78  
Old 12-24-2012, 01:54 PM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: philadelphia, United States
Posts: 700
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warren View Post
The concept of "Mediatised Houses" and the promise to those families of equal marriage rights as compensation for their loss of sovereign rights was more or less formalised at the Congress of Vienna (along with the newly-created Kingdoms, Grand Duchies etc). So in terms of 'equal' marriages within the Gotha under those revisions, we're really looking at the post-1806 (Napoleon's mediatisations) and post-1815 landscape.
This was the base for everything-there were families that were "equal" at the end of 18th century but sold their immediate possessions before 1806...

That is the case with Houses like:

-Bretzenheim(lost their immediate lands Bretzenheim and Winzenheim in 1801 and sold immediate Lindau in 1803)

-Ligne(lost their immediate land of Fagnolles in 1801 and sold immediate Edelstetten in 1804 to Esterhazy family)

-Abensberg-Traun(sold their immediate lands Eglof and Siggen in 1804 to Windischgrätz family)

-Nostitz(sold immediate land of Rieneck in 1803 to Colloredo-Mansfeld family)

-Nesselrode(lost their immediate land of Mechernich in 1801 and sold their immediate land of Reichenstein)

-Limburg-Stirum(the line that was in possession of immediate land Gemen became extinct before 1815)

Those were the reasons why they are only sometimes listed as mediatized,but just omitted from part II of Gotha Almanach...
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #79  
Old 01-14-2013, 11:35 AM
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Makati, Philippines
Posts: 131
also, are some German Mediatised families open to consider equal marriages with non-mediatised families.. for instance, Prince Maximilian Emmanuel of Hohenlohe-Langenburg married Doña Ana Luisa de Medina y Fernández de Córdoba, 12th Marquise of Navahermosa and their son, Prince Marco of Hohenlohe-Langenburg is next in line to be the Duke of Medinaceli, one of Spain's most celebrated dukedoms, a dignified rival to the Albas.. well seeing that the prince's own parents were the same, Prince Maximillians' father, Prince Maximilian Egon zu Hohenlohe-Langenburg married Doña María de la Piedad de Yturbe y von Scholtz-Hersmendorff, Marchioness de Belvís de las Navas..

also, where does the House of Visconti stand now? the family were once sovereign rulers of Milan.. one member, Valentina Visconti married Louis de Valois, Duke of Orléans, the younger brother of King Charles VI of France. Valentina herself is the grandmother of King Louis XII of France who used this birthright to claim the Duchy of Milan.. also, Taddea Visconti, daughter of Bernabò Visconti, Lord of Milan became Duchess of Bavaria uopn her marriage to Stephen III, Duke of Bavaria.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #80  
Old 01-14-2013, 12:38 PM
KittyAtlanta's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: KittyLand Junction, United States
Posts: 2,776
I don't know who currently holds the title Duke Visconti di Modrone, but Antonella and Uberto, Duke Visconti di Modrone, long-time supporters of Saint Joseph’s Hospital and the Sisters of Mercy, donated about $1 million toward the new center. The Duke died in 2001. The Duke was a client of mine and a very nice man. He was born just outside Atlanta and made a huge fortune in real estate speculation.
__________________

__________________
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 2 (0 members and 2 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





Additional Links
Popular Tags
birth charlene chris o'neill crown prince felipe crown prince frederik crown prince haakon crown princess letizia crown princess mary crown princess mette-marit crown princess victoria current events fashion grand duchess maria teresa grand duke henri infanta cristina infanta elena infanta leonor infanta sofia jordan king abdullah ii king carl xvi gustav king felipe king felipe vi king harald king juan carlos king philippe king willem-alexander luxembourg ottoman pom prince albert prince albert ii prince carl philip prince constantijn prince felipe prince floris prince joachim prince laurent prince pieter-christiaan princess princess alexia (2005 -) princess anita princess ariane princess beatrix princess catharina-amalia princess charlene princess claire princess elisabeth princess laurentien princess letizia princess mabel princess madeleine princess margriet princess marie princess mary princess of asturias queen letizia queen mathilde queen maxima queen paola queen rania queen silvia queen sofia royal russia spain state visit sweden wedding william


Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

RV & Travel Trailer Communities

Our RV & Travel Trailer sites encompasses virtually all types of Recreational Vehicles, from brand-specific to general RV communities.

» More about our RV Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities


Copyright 2002-2012 Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:53 AM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2014
Jelsoft Enterprises

Royal News Delivered to your Email!

You can get the latest Royal News right in your inbox.

unsusbcribe at anytime with one click

Close [X]