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  #241  
Old 10-31-2013, 05:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc23 View Post
Well,it's natural reaction when you are snubbed by someone who is not as rich and by someone who virtually "steels" all important positions in European thrones due to official rank of higher/equal birth...It was not easy just sitting and watching from the side when you are unable to change things in your favor...
probably.. its basically the the same here in my country during the Spanish Colonial Era.. the ruling noble class in my country back then were known as the Principalia, they are landed elite who's rank and position were hereditary until the royal decree of 20 December 1863, when Queen Isabella II of Spain made it possible to be acquired through election.. my family were members of the Principalia with scions of our family held the title of Cabeza de Pueblo Viejo for a hundred years via hereditary right.. other members of the elite were the Insulares, the pure bred Spaniards, born in Spanish soil that migrated in the Philippines to seek their fortune.. the Principalias and the Insulares often clashed.. to the Insulares, the Principalias were just rich polynesian natives lucky enough to mix with Spanish blood and granted ruling rights by the Spanish crown to prevent revolt while for the Principalias, these Insulares were nothing more than lowborn Spanish beggars who wanted to amass wealth.. this is very much like the rich British noble with few "royal" connections with the poor minor German princes with just the right noble quarterings..

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Originally Posted by Marc23 View Post
True,but the rules of the House of Saxe-Coburg-Saalfeld were different from the rules of this same house ascending to some throne...I mean not as strict...Equality was defined in this Ducal House as:"Fürstliche oder gut Gräfliche Häuser",which means that only "Princely or good Countly houses" were accepted...And after all,Maria Antonia was a daughter of a Prince...
hmmm??? but wasn't Maria Antonia's father was just a Count upon her birth and was just created "Prince" in 1815 and to To make her a suitable bride for a prince, the emperor had raised her father (whose ancestors had been created counts in the Hungarian nobility in July 1685 and barons in February 1616) to Prince Koháry of Csábrág and Szitnya in Austria's nobility on 15 November 1815..

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Originally Posted by Marc23 View Post
This is an interesting alliance allowed just because the bride was very rich,daughter of a Prince and just because the second son was in question...if it was the Crown Prince it would be treated differently for sure....
True..
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  #242  
Old 11-01-2013, 08:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Sangre_Real016 View Post
hmmm??? but wasn't Maria Antonia's father was just a Count upon her birth and was just created "Prince" in 1815 ..
True,but the rule(lasted until 1855) "Fürstliche oder gut Gräfliche Häuser" can be very subjective,as one,for example,Head of the family,can decide that this " Count Kohary" comes from "good Countly House",while for example one "Graf Hauke" could not have been treated the same.
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  #243  
Old 11-17-2013, 02:28 PM
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Also, Prince Karl Anselm of Thurn und Taxis married Countess Marie Isabelle of Eltz, despite her not being a member of a soveriegn or mediatised house.. other women who were members of none sovereign or mediatised houses who intermarried with the Prince House of Thurn and Taxis were Countess Aurora Batthyány of Német-Ujvár, Countess Maria of Thun and Hohenstein, Princess Eleonore of Ligne, Countess Gabriele Kinsky of Wchinitz and Tettau.. Though given that these ladies were born to some of the oldest and most illustrious noble families in Europe..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc23 View Post
...the rule (lasted until 1855) "Fürstliche oder gut Gräfliche Häuser" can be very subjective,as one,for example,Head of the family,can decide that this " Count Kohary" comes from "good Countly House",while for example one "Graf Hauke" could not have been treated the same...
most possibly.. also, the antiquity of the family may also be considered seeing that the House of Kohary was already and ancient noble family whereas the Haukes were mere soldiers before elevated to the rank of counts in the 1800s.. also, could a countess von Eltz, Thun and Hohenstein, Batthyány, Kálnoky, Báthory, Kinsky or even Nádasdy be considered good enough?

what if a Saxe-Coburg and Gotha prince decided to marry a Italian noblewoman? say an Orsini di Gravina, a Visconti di Modrone, a Medici di Ottaviano or even Gonzaga, can they treated equal?
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  #244  
Old 11-18-2013, 08:31 AM
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It is an interesting question,but if we saw a Saxe-Coburg-Mensdorff marriage being treated as equal by the standards of the House of Saxe-Coburg-Saalfeld at that time,I don't see any problem with Eltz or Nadasdy...It may be considered a messaliance,but not as morganatic marriage if the Head of the House agrees...

As stated in the rules of this House in question,it is said:"Fürstliche...",so it's required to be only Princely House,without going into the question of either being a sovereign,mediatized or personaliter,so I guess Kinsky,Thun und Hohenstein or Batthyany would have been enough...

Of course,different standards were used in case this House was on the actual throne of some country...King Edward VII didn't want to allow his daughter Victoria to marry his second cousin Count Albert von Mensdorff-Dietrichstein...
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  #245  
Old 11-23-2013, 11:24 AM
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i wonder why Edward didn't allow his daughter to marry the count to think that Count Albert von Mensdorff-Pouilly-Dietrichstein was his own relation and the count's grandmother was sister to both his maternal grandmother and paternal grandfather.. what baffles me is that, King Edward VII allowed his eldest daughter, the Princess Royal to marry his own subject, Alexander Duff, 6th Earl of Fife and later Duke of Fife.. whereas i remember him to be one of the people most against the marriage of her sister Princess Louise to the then John Campbell, Marquess of Lorne, later Duke of Argyll saying that a marriage between her sister and a non-mediatised noble is unacceptable..

Also, i was wondering, what if Grand Duke George Mikhailovich of Russia end marrying Princess Elisabeth de La Tour d'Auvergne-Lauraguais, would their marriage be considered equal? can the House of La Tour d'Auvergne's rank of Prince étranger enough to consider them euql to the Romanovs? they were the sovereign Duke's of Bouillon until 1766 right?
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  #246  
Old 11-24-2013, 11:31 AM
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No,de la Tour Bouillon family were only treated equal because of their sovereign Bouillon Duchy,but after the main line died out,there was a dispute over the Duchy and inheritance...So,Lauraguais line was not treated equal anyway.

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Originally Posted by Sangre_Real016 View Post
i wonder why Edward didn't allow his daughter to marry the count...
Difficult to say why,but although Mensdorff family inherited lands and titles from Dietrichstein-Proskau family,they didn't inherit their former sovereign status...which meant that Count Mensdorff could become upon his father in law death Prince von Dietrichstein-Nikolsburg,but his family just could not inherit the status this family had before dying out...So,Dietrichsteins were in section II of Gotha,while Mensdorff family remained in section III still...It is interesting that both King Edward VII and his mother Queen Victoria descended from that same Dietrichstein family...
.
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  #247  
Old 12-07-2013, 02:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc23 View Post
No,de la Tour Bouillon family were only treated equal because of their sovereign Bouillon Duchy,but after the main line died out,there was a dispute over the Duchy and inheritance...So,Lauraguais line was not treated equal anyway.
I see.. so the De la Tour d'Auvergne-Lauraguais line is similar to the Visconti di Modrone line of the House of Visconti and the Medici di Ottaviano line of the House of Medici.. they are collateral lines of the house but did descended from the main sovereign line..

another question, say if a daughter of the Earl of Portland would end up marrying the Grand Duke George Mikhailovich of Russia or George Friedrich, Prince of Prussia, would their union be considered equal seeing the that British Earls of Portland are also the mediatised Counts of Bentick in the Holy Roman Empire.. also i remember that late Lady Anne Cavendish-Bentinck was proposed to by Prince Charles, Count of Flanders, son of Albert I, King of the Belgians and Duchess Elisabeth in Bavaria, but she turned him down as she preferred to marry John Osborne, 11th Duke of Leeds but her family was opposed to it.
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  #248  
Old 12-10-2013, 06:33 AM
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No,as Counts of Bentinck-Aldenburg,though considered mediatized(not by all "for various reasons" as said) were never Standesherren in the Holy Roman Empire...they were only made Standesherren in Oldenburg and were "lightly" given the predicate "Erlaucht" only in 1845...

So,I don't believe that Counts of Bentinck would be even "tolerable" for the Imperial family...the same case as the Prince of Orange and Countess von Limburg-Stirum...although her family was considered mediatized,they in fact were not,as only 2 branches of the family that could be considered equal died out in 1800 and 1809.
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  #249  
Old 12-25-2013, 03:28 PM
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I see, so from what i remember, Standesherren were the noble house who managed to preserved their status as part of the Holy Roman Empire before joining the Confederation of the Rhine were still considered as equal to other sovereign houses of Europe, although this new equality was a concept which did not receive much currency outside the German states.

Also, irrc, in the 1900s, a new rule was introduce in the Habsburg criteria for equality for the members of the Imperial House. By those time, aside from Catholic members of sovereign, formerly-sovereign and mediatised houses, other possible partners for a member of the Imperial House must belong to an ancient noble lineage, have a certain number of noble quarters and have held a noble fief for at least 300 years. When a person meets requirements, then they are considered "good enough" to be married into the family..

so based on the new house law, can a Donna de Medici dei Principi di Ottaviano or a Donna Boncompagni-Ludovisi considered good enough? also, does British noble estates considered similar to fiefdoms? I am wondering because if yes, the so, British noble families who can trace their family origins before 1400, has no commoner "in a typical sense" blood-line and has held a noble estate for 300 years can marry into the House of Habsburg? just asking though.
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  #250  
Old 12-25-2013, 08:15 PM
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No,because the Habsburg family had made a list of "acceptable" families at some point in the second half of 19th century...and it did not always include all mediatized families...British families were never an option,except for the ruling one,which was again German.
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  #251  
Old 12-28-2013, 07:20 AM
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There is more detailed discussion of the "acceptable families" list introduced in 1900 in the Heirs to the Austrian Throne & House Laws thread in the Imperial House of Habsburg subforum.
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  #252  
Old 12-29-2013, 11:04 AM
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Thank you for this reminder Warren
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  #253  
Old 12-29-2013, 11:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sangre_Real016 View Post
so based on the new house law, can a Donna de Medici dei Principi di Ottaviano or a Donna Boncompagni-Ludovisi considered good enough? also, does British noble estates considered similar to fiefdoms? I am wondering because if yes, the so, British noble families who can trace their family origins before 1400, has no commoner "in a typical sense" blood-line and has held a noble estate for 300 years can marry into the House of Habsburg? just asking though.
.
So,apart from the reigning christian families,only marriages with these non-ruling families were accepted as equal,with the proof of their ancestry:

-Arenberg-Recklinghuasen

-Auersperg

-Bentheim zu Steinfurt

-Bentheim-Teklenburg und Rheda

-Colloredo-Mansfeld

-Croy

-Esterhazy

-Fugger-Babenhausen

-Fürstenberg

-Hohenlohe-Langenburg-Langenburg

-Hohenlohe-Langenburg-Oehringen

-Hohenlohe-Langenburg-Kirchberg

-Hohenlohe-Waldenburg-Bartenstein

-Hohenlohe-Waldenburg-Bartenstein-Faxtberg

-Hohenlohe-Waldenburg-Schillingfürst

-Isenburg-Offenbach-Birstein

-Khevenhüller-Metsch

-Leyen und zu Hohengeroldseck

-Leiningen

-Lobkowitz

-Looz-Coswarem

-Loewenstein-Wertheim-Rosenbrg

-Loewenstein-Wertheim-Freudenberg

-Metternich-Winneburg-Beilstein

-Oettingen-Spielberg

-Oettingen-Wallerstein

-Orsini und Rosenberg

-Salm-Horstmar

-Salm-Kyrburg

-Salm-Reifferscheid-Krautheim

-Salm-Reifferscheid-Krautheim

-Salm-Salm

-Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg

-Sayn-Wittgenstein-Hohenstein

-Schwarzenberg

-Schönburg-Waldenburg

-Schönburg-Hartenstein

-Solms-Braunfels

-Solms-Lich und Hohensolms

-Starhemberg

-Thurn und Taxis

-Trauttmansdorff

-Waldburg-Zeil-Trauchburg

-Waldburg-Zeil-Wurzach

-Waldburg-Wolfegg-Waldsee

-Wied

-Windisch-Graetz
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  #254  
Old 12-29-2013, 11:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc23 View Post
So,apart from the reigning christian families,only marriages with these non-ruling families were accepted as equal,with the proof of their ancestry:
but aren't these families mediatised? so therefore, they are not truly considered non-ruling in essence..

So, for a marriage of a member of the Imperial Family to be equal the spouse had to belong to one of the following:
  1. the Imperial Family of Austria-Hungary (House of Habsburg-Lorraine)
  2. a fellow ruling or formerly-ruling Christian royal family
  3. a member of a princely house that had the right of equality of birth according to article 14 of the Act of German Confederation (1815) [ie, the mediatised houses]; and... *in accordance with the 1825 Act of the Emperor Franz I; and *who were mentioned by name in the list attached to the (1900) declaration.
    • List of Mediatised Princely Houses which the Habsburgs considered as acceptable marriage partners:
      • Mediatised houses domiciled in the Austrian Monarchy
        • Auersperg
        • Colloredo-Mansfeld
        • Esterházy von Galántha
        • Kaunitz-Rietberg
        • Khevenhüller
        • Lobkowicz
        • Metternich
        • Orsini-Rosenberg
        • Salm-Reifferscheid-Krautheim
        • Schwarzenberg
        • Schönburg-Waldenburg
        • Schönburg-Hartenstein
        • Trauttmansdorff
        • Windisch-Graetz
      • Mediatised houses domiciled outside of the Austrian Monarchy
        • Arenberg (Duke)
        • Bentheim-Steinfurt
        • Bentheim-Tecklenburg
        • Croy (Duke)
        • Fugger-Babenhausen
        • Fürstenberg
        • Hohenlohe-Langenburg-Langenburg
        • Hohenlohe-Langenburg-Oehringen
        • Hohenlohe-Langenburg-Kirchberg
        • Hohenlohe-Langenburg-Bartenstein
        • Hohenlohe-Langenburg-Bartenstein-Faxtberg
        • Hohenlohe-Langenburg-Schillingfürst
        • isenburg-Offenbach-Birstein
        • Leyen
        • Leiningen
        • Looz-Corswarem (Duke)
        • Löwenstein-Wertheim-Rosenberg
        • Löwenstein-Wertheim-Freudenberg
        • Oettingen-Spieldberg
        • Oettingen-Wallerstein
        • Salm-Salm
        • Salm-Kyrburg
        • Salm-Reifferscheid-Krautheim
        • Salm-Horstmar
        • Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg
        • Sayn-Wittgenstein-Hohenstein
        • Solms-Braunfels
        • Solms-Lich and Hohensolms
        • Waldburg-Wolfegg-Waldsee
        • Waldburg-Zeil-Trauchburg
        • Waldburg-Zeil-Wurzach
        • Wied
        • Thurn and Taxis
  1. a member of a non-mediatised house of alter Adel status, or can prove an ancient noble lineage, *have a certain number of noble quarters (exacting conditions relating to the nobility of 16 direct ancestors, 8 paternal and 8 maternal) and *have held a noble fief for at least 300 years.

Quote:
a member of a non-mediatised house of alter Adel status, or can prove an ancient noble lineage, *have a certain number of noble quarters (exacting conditions relating to the nobility of 16 direct ancestors, 8 paternal and 8 maternal) and *have held a noble fief for at least 300 years.
I was thinking that this criteria is probably what made Princess Yolanda of Ligne a suitable and acceptable wife for Archduke Karl Ludwig, fouth son of Emperor Charles I of Austria and Princess Zita of Bourbon-Parma
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  #255  
Old 12-29-2013, 07:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Sangre_Real016 View Post
I was thinking that this criteria is probably what made Princess Yolanda of Ligne a suitable and acceptable wife for Archduke Karl Ludwig, fouth son of Emperor Charles I of Austria and Princess Zita of Bourbon-Parma

Well,the marriage didn't occur during the monarchy,so the rules could be a bit more flexible...

But,strange thing is that de Ligne family belongs to the part III of Gotha,just because they sold their immediate possessions few years before the actual mediation,while the other branch of the family is listed higher-Arenberg...
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  #256  
Old 12-30-2013, 12:46 PM
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yeah.. and from what i know, the Arenbergs are actual agnatic descendants of Jean de Ligne.. one family yet the other is mediatised, and the other isn't..
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  #257  
Old 12-30-2013, 07:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Sangre_Real016 View Post
yeah.. and from what i know, the Arenbergs are actual agnatic descendants of Jean de Ligne.. one family yet the other is mediatised, and the other isn't..
Yes,because de Ligne family sold their immediate possessions few years before the actual mediation...otherwise,they would too be considered mediatized...

But,so far,I haven't seen a case where a member of the House of Ligne was treated "unequal" in terms of marriage with other "higher-ranked" families...
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  #258  
Old 01-02-2014, 09:43 AM
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very true.. the Habsburgs of themselves saw them as equal, as so are the Orleans-Braganza of Brazil and the Dukes of Castel Duino, the Italian branch of the House of Thurn and Taxis..

other higher-ranked families may also treat them as equal say houses like Say-Wittgenstein-Berleburg or possibly even Hohenzollern.. but say, how about the Romanovs? is a Princess of Ligne be somewhat considered equal to some extent?

also, the reason is probably because, the Lignes is one of the most prestigious and respectable Princely houses of Europe.. they even almost became sovereigns themselves when in February of 1831, the Belgian National Congress offered Eugène, 8th Prince of Ligne the Crown of Belgium itself, but he turned it down and so it was given to Prince Leopold of of Saxe-Coburg-Saalfeld, later Leopold I, King of the Belgians.
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  #259  
Old 01-02-2014, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Sangre_Real016 View Post
how about the Romanovs? is a Princess of Ligne be somewhat considered equal to some extent?
It could have been similar to Romanov-Bagration case...never ending story for and against :(
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  #260  
Old 01-03-2014, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Marc23 View Post
It could have been similar to Romanov-Bagration case...never ending story for and against :(
True.. But the thing is, unlike the Bagrations, who's some members who managed to marry into sovereign, formerly sovereign families etc, were questioned, the Lignes' dynastic status as equals to higher ranked families were never put into question..

To think that the House of Ligne mainly relies on its prestige and dynastic connections to be considered equals to higher rank families, while the Bagrations were once actual rulers of their own independent state plus the fact the the Treaty of Georgievsk, which was sign by Empress Catherine The Great of Russia and Herculius II of Georgia in 1783 guaranteed the House of Bagration its dynastic royal status despite being annexed by Russia..

Also, wouldn't the questioning of a possible Romanov-Ligne union contradict the laws of other powerful sovereign houses such as the Hapsburgs, Orleans-Braganza and Bourbon-Parma? I mean these houses also possess strict house laws in terns of dynastic unions, but they considered the Lignes to be their equals in terms of dynastic union.. wouldn't the questioning of a possible Romanov-Ligne union invalidate these already established dynastic unions?
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