Royal and Noble Families: Dynastic Laws and Marriage Rules


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The rules have changed and if the girl was born first,she would have been the Queen one day...but,instead,Prince George was born...

I think in the titles department things did not change...
They might have been offered a title,but I think it's the choice of the sovereign to decide...as for wives,they automatically become Princesses upon their marriage...
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Marc is absolutely correct, this has been the practice for British royals for generations.

Wives of British princes automatically take the female equivalent of their husband's title BUT they are not accorded the title of 'Princess' before their given names UNLESS they are Princesses by birth themselves. eg, when Lady Diana Spencer married Prince Charles, Prince of Wales, she became Princess Charles, Princess of Wales, the same as when Baroness Marie Christine von Reibnitz became Princess Michael of Kent when she married Prince Michael of Kent. Diana was NEVER Princess Diana, Princess of Wales but after her divorce with Charles, she had all the rights to address herself as The Lady Diana, Princess of Wales, with the title of "Lady" owed to her birthright as a daughter of an Earl. However, princesses by birth who married into the family are allowed to use such title as in the case of Princess Marina, Duchess of Kent, she being a Princess of Greece and Denmark by birth. Another case concerns the late Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester, who was born Lady Alice Montagu-Douglas-Scott. Following the Duke's death she was allowed by HM The Queen to address herself as 'Princess Alice' (as opposed to 'Dowager Duchess'), a privilege granted to very few.

As for royal princesses who marry untitled individuals, the monarch can grant them titles such as in the cases of Antony Charles Robert Armstrong-Jones, who was created Earl of Snowdon upon his marriage to Princess Margaret, thus the princess becoming HRH Princess Margaret, Countess of Snowdon. If the couple chose not to accept a title, the wife then takes her husband's name but keeps her royal titles, eg HRH Princess Alexandra, The Honorable Lady Ogilvy, or if a total commoner, say if Princess Beatrice marries her boyfriend, and he is not granted a title, she will be HRH Princess Beatrice, Mrs Clark, but that is upon her own decision.

Now, it would be very different if the princess herself is the heir apparent.. say Prince George is followed by a sister and he someday chose to renounce his claim, then his sister would be the heir apparent to the throne. This will be a special case as princesses who are heir-apparent usually have their futures husband's title(s). Prince Philip was created Duke of Edinburgh when he married the then Princess Elizabeth but Philip was born a royal prince of Greece and Denmark, titles he renounced to become a British citizen in order to marry Elizabeth.

King George VI and the Queen Mother resented the fact that Princess Elizabeth was to marry a foreign prince as they wanted her to marry a British noble which from what i have read, possible candidates chosen by the King and Queen were William Cavendish, Marquess of Hartington, son of the 10th Duke of Devonshire (who later married Kathleen Kennedy, sister to President JFK); John Scott, Earl of Dalkeith later 9th Duke of Buccleuch; John Spencer-Churchill, Marquess of Blandford later 11th Duke of Marlborough and John Spencer, Viscount Althorp later 8th Earl Spencer (father of Diana, Princess of Wales) but the young Princess Elizabeth was was also said to be enamored by other highborn lords such as Hugh FitzRoy, Earl of Euston, later the 11th Duke of Grafton; Henry Herbert, Lord Porchester, later the 7th Earl of Carnarvon (also rumored to be Prince Andrew's biological father) and Patrick Plunket, later the 7th Baron Plunket.
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As for royal princesses who marry untitled individuals, the monarch can grant them titles such as in the cases of Antony Charles Robert Armstrong-Jones, who was created Earl of Snowdon upon his marriage to Princess Margaret, thus the princess becoming HRH Princess Margaret, Countess of Snowdon. If the couple chose not to accept a title, the wife then takes her husband's name but keeps her royal titles, eg HRH Princess Alexandra, The Honorable Lady Ogilvy, or if a total commoner, say if Princess Beatrice marries her boyfriend, and he is not granted a title, she will be HRH Princess Beatrice, Mrs Clark, but that is upon her own decision.
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Just for the sake of curiosity, what if Princess Beatrice married, ley's say, Prince Carl Philip of Sweden, Duke of Värmland ? Would she be known as:

  1. HRH Princess Beatrice, Duchess of Värmland ?
  2. HRH Princess Beatrice of Sweden and the United Kingdom, Duchess of Värmland ?
  3. HRH Princess Beatrice of Sweden, Duchess of Värmland ?
  4. HRH The Duchess of Värmland ?
  5. None of the above ?
Thanks for the explanation.
 
It mostly depends on how the two countries and their sovereigns agree...But,under normal circumstances,as she is not a direct nearest heir to the throne,I assume her title would be "HRH Princess Beatrice of Sweden, Duchess of Värmland",of course if sovereigns do not agree otherwise depending on the heir situation...just like some Archdukes of Austria are also Princes of Belgium for dynastic purposes...
 
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It's tricky....

Typically speaking, in the past when British princesses have married into foreign royal families they've largely ceased to use their British titles (unless they hold a title in their own right, and not just through being the monarch's child/grandchild) and taken on their husband's titles.

So, for example, Queen Victoria's eldest daughter remained Princess Royal throughout her lifetime, while also going through a number of German titles in accordance to her husband's position. At the end of her life, she was both Princess Royal and the German Empress.

In contrast, Princess Maud of Wales ceased to be Maud of Wales upon her marriage and because Princess Carl of Denmark (later to be the Queen of Norway).

In Beatrice's case, I would think that she would become HRH Princess Beatrice of Sweden, Duchess of Värmland. She would likely still remain a Princess of the United Kingdom in her own right, she just wouldn't use that title.

As neither she nor Carl Philip are expected to ever actually inherit the thrones of their respective realms, I kind of doubt that either would be required to renounce their place in the succession or their citizenships.
 
In Beatrice's case, I would think that she would become HRH Princess Beatrice of Sweden, Duchess of Värmland. She would likely still remain a Princess of the United Kingdom in her own right, she just wouldn't use that title.

As neither she nor Carl Philip are expected to ever actually inherit the thrones of their respective realms, I kind of doubt that either would be required to renounce their place in the succession or their citizenships.

I think you are right about this...It would be a different situation/story if one of them was expected to likely inherit the throne!
 
but aren't these families mediatised? so therefore, they are not truly considered non-ruling in essence..

So, for a marriage of a member of the Imperial Family to be equal the spouse had to belong to one of the following...

Just thought of the marriage in 1815 between Archduke Joseph of Austria,Palatine of Hungary and Princess Hermine von Anhalt-Bernburg-Schaumburg-Hoym...

Princess Hermine belonged to a mediatized branch of the Anhalt family which lost their sovereignty in 1806...and still this marriage was at that time considered fully equal by the Habsburg standards...
 
It is simple,because they want to make their claim ;)

To tell the truth,of all post revolution marriages of the pretenders to the throne Russia-Bagration was the closest one to equal requirement as the Bagration family was the reigning one until 1801 when the Bagration regent of Georgia had to back it up...

And at that time of the Georgia annexation,they were promised their equal status...to make sure of it,apart from their own titles,all the members also gained the title of Prince within Russia,which later caused the problem as why the other Princes within Russia could not be treated the same,and there were many of them...

To tell the truth,the Bagration family is certainly the most older one and the most recent reigning one of all,apart from Gotha 1 and 2 families...
Not to mention Princess had been married before and her branch weren’t from her the ruling branch.
 
yeah.. and from what i know, the Arenbergs are actual agnatic descendants of Jean de Ligne.. one family yet the other is mediatised, and the other isn't..
Well, Jean de Ligne of Barbacon helped continue the dynasty with Margarete Arenberg Van de Marck and their children continued the dynasty and they asked permission to do so. Plus they still had the duchy of Arenberg till Prussia and Hanover divided it and in return, they were given mediatized status like other high noble families.
 
Well,the marriage didn't occur during the monarchy,so the rules could be a bit more flexible...

But,strange thing is that de Ligne family belongs to the part III of Gotha,just because they sold their immediate possessions few years before the actual mediation,while the other branch of the family is listed higher-Arenberg...
But there’s a slight thing, Yolande is a descendant of Mary Ray, an American heiress who married into the French nobility. I don’t know if the family examined her genealogy but they probably took it as she’s from a prominent princely family .
 
But there’s a slight thing, Yolande is a descendant of Mary Ray, an American heiress who married into the French nobility. I don’t know if the family examined her genealogy but they probably took it as she’s from a prominent princely family .

True, she was her maternal great-grandmother...

Of course, the Habsburgs had to take a look at the genealogy of the Princess. I don't think that they made any problems about it...

Considering changing times, they probably thought that she is the best choice at that time as Carl Ludwig could have easilly fallen in love with some commoner and the problem would become much greater than finding one common American great-grandmother in her genealogy chart.

In other words, % of finding a better suited wife at that time, would be a much heavier task. They knew they couldn't afford to be too picky at that time and had to take it as it is...
 
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True, she was her maternal great-grandmother...

Of course, the Habsburgs had to take a look at the genealogy of the Princess. I don't think that they made any problems about it...

Considering changing times, they probably thought that she is the best choice at that time as Carl Ludwig could have easilly fallen in love with some commoner and the problem would become much greater than finding one common American great-grandmother in her genealogy chart.

In other words, % of finding a better suited wife at that time, would be a much heavier task. They knew they couldn't afford to be too picky at that time and had to take it as it is...
Quite ironic, that her grandson, Imre married an American too.
 
Quite ironic, that her grandson, Imre married an American too.

Well, the times have changed drastically...

as did Habsburg marriage rules in recent times...

There is no monarchy, there is no wealth, so members of the family can marry whoever they want, as they have nothing to lose anymore.
 
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Well, the times have changed drastically...

as did Habsburg marriage rules in recent times...

There is no monarchy, there is no wealth, so members of the family can marry whoever they want, as they have nothing to lose anymore.
I meant to say that things go full circle again in that Yolande is a descendant of an American and her grandson has married a full American. Some of the family members are well-off
 
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