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  #141  
Old 01-19-2017, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Rudolph View Post
The Netherlands isn't the House of Von Amsberg, not will Charles reign as a Glucksburg. The Netherlands is the House of Orange and Charles belongs to the House of Windsor.

Talk about ancestors is different but this thread discusses both male and female line
I disagree. It is about the oldest royal or noble houses. If we go your way, this means that never any royal or noble house can become extinct anymore unless there is really no any descendant, male or female, left.

The House of Orange-Nassau became extinct with the death of Queen Wilhelmina of the Netherlands, Princess of Orange-Nassau, in 1962.

The House of Nassau became partly extinct with the death of Grand-Duchess Charlotte in 1985. Partly, because there is still a morganatic branch alive, known under the name Von Merenberg, which will become extinct with the last Von Merenberg (Nassau) indeed:

Nicholas Prince of Nassau (1832-1905)
x Natalia Alexandrovna Countess Pushkina (1836-1913)
= Georg Nicholas of Nassau, created Graf von Merenberg

Georg Nikolaus Graf von Merenberg (1873-1925)
x Olga Alexandrovna Romanova, created Princess Yurievskaya (1873-1925)
= Georg Graf von Merenberg

Georg Graf von Merenberg (1897-1965)
x Elisabeth Anne Müller-Uri (1903-1963)
= Clotilde Elisabeth Freifrau von Rintelen née Gräfin von Merenberg (1941)

Picture: the last Nassau agnate, decorated with a Russian Order. As (great) granddaughter of Tsar Alexander II of Russia resp. of Alexander Sergeyevich Count Pushkin (widely seen as Russia's greatest writer, playwright and poet ever) she has strong Russian ties.
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  #142  
Old 01-19-2017, 12:30 PM
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You may disagree but the law does not. I can follow your logic, which btw would also make the houses of Habsburg and Romanov extinct, but it is not consistant. Why are laws not valid here why you deem them valid when discussing the French succession.
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  #143  
Old 01-19-2017, 01:24 PM
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Looking back at the original post that started this thread, back in 2004, it actually does post multiple questions: which are the oldest houses/monarchies, dynastically speaking (which is what folks are getting at with the male line answers and house names) AND whose ancestry can be traced back the farthest. The dynastic lineage is of course the most common way to look at how far back a particular institution has lasted, but looking at ancestry in a more general way can also paint a fascinating picture of just how interconnected these monarchies have been for centuries. Surely there's room for that conversation, too, especially since the original post asked for it?
  #144  
Old 01-19-2017, 01:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudolph View Post
The Netherlands isn't the House of Von Amsberg, not will Charles reign as a Glucksburg. The Netherlands is the House of Orange and Charles belongs to the House of Windsor.

Talk about ancestors is different but this thread discusses both male and female line
The thread title is oldest royal and noble families. One family is considered by male agnates...if a female was transmitter of the family,no royal and noble family would ever die out.

If a woman succeeds it's a start of a different family.

So, here we discuss oldest noble and royal families,which means unbroken male line,as that determines noble families in general and determines how old the family is.

Simple.
  #145  
Old 01-19-2017, 06:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Marc23 View Post
The thread title is oldest royal and noble families. One family is considered by male agnates...if a female was transmitter of the family,no royal and noble family would ever die out.

If a woman succeeds it's a start of a different family.

So, here we discuss oldest noble and royal families,which means unbroken male line,as that determines noble families in general and determines how old the family is.

Simple.
Indeed. The fact that the British monarchs were Tudor, Stuart, Orange-Nassau, Hannover, Sachsen-Coburg-Gotha shows that it was the male descendance which determined the dynasty. Otherwise we can claim Elizabeth II is a Hannover... There are still Hannovers. But not on the British throne because Victoria's descendants, under them the current Queen, are Von Sachsen-Coburg und Gotha, after WWII renamed into "Windsor".
  #146  
Old 01-19-2017, 08:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Marengo View Post
You may disagree but the law does not. I can follow your logic, which btw would also make the houses of Habsburg and Romanov extinct, but it is not consistant. Why are laws not valid here why you deem them valid when discussing the French succession.
What is normally done in those cases is to use a hyphenated name indicating both the paternal and maternal houses, e.g. Habsburg-Lorraine, Braganza-Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, Orléans-Braganza, etc. Likewise, the descendants of Queen Elizabeth II and Prince Philip could be technically referred to as the House of Mountbatten-Windsor.


In Sweden, they circumvented that problem by having Daniel take the family name Bernadotte so that his children could inherit the name in paternal line.
  #147  
Old 01-19-2017, 08:43 PM
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That's absurd. Women don't mean it's a new family, it's just a new House.

Saying that the British Royal Family isn't an unbroken line because of female inheritance is absurd. The BRF traces it's claim to William the Conqueror. Queen Elizabeth II is the direct descendant of William the Conqueror.

Depending on how you want to argue it, the BRF is an unbroken line going back to either George I (owing to close relationship to the previous monarch), William III and Mary II (owing to no usurpations since then), Charles II (owing to the Civil War then restoration), or William the Conqueror (owing to the fact that every monarch since has been his descendant).
  #148  
Old 01-20-2017, 01:32 AM
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The name changed to Windsor in 1917.
  #149  
Old 01-20-2017, 03:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ish View Post
That's absurd. Women don't mean it's a new family, it's just a new House.

Saying that the British Royal Family isn't an unbroken line because of female inheritance is absurd. The BRF traces it's claim to William the Conqueror. Queen Elizabeth II is the direct descendant of William the Conqueror.

Depending on how you want to argue it, the BRF is an unbroken line going back to either George I (owing to close relationship to the previous monarch), William III and Mary II (owing to no usurpations since then), Charles II (owing to the Civil War then restoration), or William the Conqueror (owing to the fact that every monarch since has been his descendant).
No one argues that the British monarchs do not have a long line, possibly going back to William the Conqueror (we have no DNA-proof of swapped babies, or children from extramarital affaires assumed to be a natural son of the monarch, etc.).

But the point is about the Houses in the traditional meaning of the word. For an example, it is generally assumed that the famous House De' Medici became extinct in 1737. There is no doubt that there are people who carry the mitochondrial DNA of the Medici's or descent from a collateral branch but the House became extinct.

Another example, the House of Borgia became extinct in 1748. The current Duke of Parma, Prince Carlos de Bourbon de Parme, has Borgia blood via his grandmother Marie-Madeleine de Bourbon-Busset. After the death of Henri III de France without succession, there were several candidates for the throne of France: Henri III de Navarre, the Cardinal Charles de Borbon, and César de Bourbon-Busset (1565-1630), who was closest to the deceased Henri III de France, but was considered of illegitimate ancestry, since his descendance came from the Bishop of Liege and of the Pope Alexander VI (Borgia).

But would anyone claim the Duke of Parma is a Borgia? No. He is a De Bourbon de Parme. That is his patrineal lineage, that is the name of his dynasty and of his House. Like we can not claim that Carlos is a Borgia, we can not claim that Elizabeth II is a Hannover. That was the point here.
  #150  
Old 01-20-2017, 04:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
Nicholas Prince of Nassau (1832-1905)
x Natalia Alexandrovna Countess Pushkina (1836-1913)
= Georg Nicholas of Nassau, created Graf von Merenberg

Georg Nikolaus Graf von Merenberg (1873-1925)
x Olga Alexandrovna Romanova, created Princess Yurievskaya (1873-1925)
= Georg Graf von Merenberg

Georg Graf von Merenberg (1897-1965)
x Elisabeth Anne Müller-Uri (1903-1963)
= Clotilde Elisabeth Freifrau von Rintelen née Gräfin von Merenberg (1941)

Picture: the last Nassau agnate, decorated with a Russian Order. As (great) granddaughter of Tsar Alexander II of Russia resp. of Alexander Sergeyevich Count Pushkin (widely seen as Russia's greatest writer, playwright and poet ever) she has strong Russian ties.
Pushkin wasn't a count. He didn't have a title. He was from landed gentry.
  #151  
Old 01-20-2017, 04:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ish View Post
That's absurd. Women don't mean it's a new family, it's just a new House.

Saying that the British Royal Family isn't an unbroken line because of female inheritance is absurd. The BRF traces it's claim to William the Conqueror. Queen Elizabeth II is the direct descendant of William the Conqueror.
The Spanish house of Bourbon has a direct paternal line going back to the Middle Ages, specifically to Hugh Capet . Queen Isabel II didn't break the line since her husband was also a patrilineal Bourbon. Unfortunately, Leonor will break the line unless she also marries another member of the dynasty.

I believe the Belgian Coburgs may also have a direct paternal line going back to the medieval house of Wettin in Saxony. Again, however, with the decision to switch to equal primogeniture, the line will probably be broken by Elisabeth's descendants even though it will continue to exist if princes Gabriel, Emmanuel, Aymeric or Nicolas have male issue.
  #152  
Old 01-20-2017, 06:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Spheno View Post
Pushkin wasn't a count. He didn't have a title. He was from landed gentry.
I stand corrected. Pushkin was indeed of untitled nobility. There are Counts Mushin-Pushkin but apparently with no relation to the famous Pushkin, I think.
  #153  
Old 01-20-2017, 10:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc23 View Post
The thread title is oldest royal and noble families.
The original post asked
Quote:
Originally Posted by kcc View Post
what royal/noble families have the oldest traceable ancesty.also is the massimo descent from an ancient roman general(maximus i believe) genuine.i find this fascinating so any info or input is much appreciated.

i forgot to mention that it does not matter wheather it is male or female line descent.

[...]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc23 View Post
One family is considered by male agnates...if a female was transmitter of the family,no royal and noble family would ever die out.

If a woman succeeds it's a start of a different family.

So, here we discuss oldest noble and royal families,which means unbroken male line,as that determines noble families in general and determines how old the family is.

Simple.
That is not the case worldwide, e.g., certain Native American monarchies were matrilineal.

While children in Europe normally belonged to their father's house, there were many exceptions.

The Spanish royal family traces its name to Beatrice, Lady of Bourbon rather than her husband Robert, Count of Clermont (son of King Louis IX of France), who is the unbroken male line ancestor of Felipe VI de Borbón, King of Spain.

The children of Queen Maria II of Portugal and King Fernando, Prince of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, were "de Bragança Bourbon", not "de Saxe-Coburgo-Gotha" or "de Bragança Saxe-Coburgo-Gotha". Here is the marriage contract of Infanta Maria Anna. http://books.google.pt/books?id=UXUMAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA4&focus=viewport&hl=pt-PT

Quote:
[...] e Sua Alteza a Serenissima Senhora Princeza Dona Maria Anna Fernanda Leopoldina Michaela Gabriela Carlota Antonia Julia Victoria Praxedes Francisca de Assis Gonzaga de Bragança Bourbon, Infanta de Portugal e dos Algarves, Duqueza de Saxe Coburgo Gotha, Filha mais velha de Sua Magestade, Dom Fernando, Rei de Portugal e dos Algarves, Duque de Saxe Coburgo Gotha, e de Sua Magestade, já fallecida, Dona Maria II, Rainha de Portugal e dos Algarves, etc, etc, etc, e Irmã de Sua Magestade Fidelissima El-Rei Dom Pedro V, etc, etc, etc; [...]
  #154  
Old 01-20-2017, 01:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post

The children of Queen Maria II of Portugal and King Fernando, Prince of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, were "de Bragança Bourbon", not "de Saxe-Coburgo-Gotha" or "de Bragança Saxe-Coburgo-Gotha". Here is the marriage contract of Infanta Maria Anna. http://books.google.pt/books?id=UXUMAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA4&focus=viewport&hl=pt-PT
The name "Braganza-Saxe-Coburg and Gotha" is used mostly by non-Portuguese historians and genealogists who adhere to the patrilineal rule. Within Portugal itself, the descendants of Queen Maria II continued to style themselves as members of the House of Bragança only.

A possible parallel is the patrilineal descendants of Queen Elizabeth II being considered part of the House of Windsor, rather than the House of Mountbatten-Windsor.
  #155  
Old 01-21-2017, 03:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
What is normally done in those cases is to use a hyphenated name indicating both the paternal and maternal houses, e.g. Habsburg-Lorraine, Braganza-Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, Orléans-Braganza, etc. Likewise, the descendants of Queen Elizabeth II and Prince Philip could be technically referred to as the House of Mountbatten-Windsor.

But why was this then not done in the UK. It could have then become the House of Hannover (or more correct Guelf)-Wettin after 1901.
  #156  
Old 01-21-2017, 04:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Stefan View Post
But why was this then not done in the UK. It could have then become the House of Hannover (or more correct Guelf)-Wettin after 1901.
In some European peerages the closest relative of a last agnate of a dynasty can request to add the surname of the last agnate (often their mother) to their father's surname. For an example, the last Princesse de la Trémoïlle married a Prince de Ligne. Their descendants belong to the princely House De Ligne but have a different surname: prince (princesse) de Ligne de la Trémoïlle.

The same happened in the Netherlands but not consequently. The very last Prince zur Lippe-Biesterfeld died in 2014 (Prince Bernhard), leaving 4+2 daughters. In reality the current Fürst zur Lippe is genealogically a Lippe-Biesterfeld too but the main branch is known as Lippe, not as Lippe-Biesterfeld, so that name would become extinct. The children of Prince Bernhard's grandson Maurits have the surname Van Lippe-Biesterfeld van Vollenhoven, to keep the surname going on. Alike the example of De Ligne de la Trémoïlle.

The "problem" with Hannover and Von Sachsen-Coburg und Gotha is that neigher Victoria nor Elizabeth II are last agnates at all. The situation is not alike De la Trémoïlle or Zur Lippe-Biesterfeld.
  #157  
Old 01-21-2017, 07:10 AM
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In Germany, the Hanoverian house law dictated that Queen Victoria and the British branch were no longer members of the Royal House of Hannover when the crowns of Great Britain and Hannover became separate.

Succession laws in the House of Braunschweig

Quote:
§. 3.
Mitglieder des Königlichen Hauses sind :

Die Königin, Gemahlin des Königs
die Königlichen Wittwen;
alle im Königreiche Successionsfähige, nicht regierende Prinzen und Prinzessinnen der Königlich-Hannoverschen Linie, für den Fall aber, dass eine Trennung der Kronen von Grossbritannien und Hannover einträte, nur in so fern als sie ihren Wohnsitz im Königreiche Hannover nehmen und in den Haus verband dieses Königreichs vom Könige aufgenommen sind; übrigens ohne Beeinträchtigung der Successionsrechte der Mitglieder des Gesammthauses;
die ebenbürtigen, hausgesetzlich vermählten Gemahlinnen der Prinzen des Königlichen Hauses und die Wittwen derselben.
  #158  
Old 01-21-2017, 07:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
In Germany, the Hanoverian house law dictated that Queen Victoria and the British branch were no longer members of the Royal House of Hannover when the crowns of Great Britain and Hannover became separate.

Succession laws in the House of Braunschweig
That is a formalization of the longstanding practice. The same happened between the Netherlands and Luxembourg. With the death of King Willem III of the Netherlands, Grand-Duke of Luxembourg, his only surviving child was Princess Wilhelmina. She did succeed him in the Netherlands but -like in the UK-Hannover union- in Luxembourg the throne went to the closest male agnate.

Since then Princes (Princesses) of the Netherlands have no succession rights anymore in the Grand-Duchy of Luxembourg. Exactly like the Princes (Princesses) of the United Kingdom have no succession rights anymore in Hannover.
  #159  
Old 01-21-2017, 08:17 AM
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The ruling houses of the Netherlands and Luxembourg have indeed no rights to each other's crowns at present, though they did not adapt their respective succession laws until 1922 and 1907. However, was Queen Wilhelmina no longer a member of the Grand-Ducal House of Luxembourg since 1890?
  #160  
Old 01-21-2017, 08:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post


The ruling houses of the Netherlands and Luxembourg have indeed no rights to each other's crowns at present, though they did not adapt their respective succession laws until 1922 and 1907. However, was Queen Wilhelmina no longer a member of the Grand-Ducal House of Luxembourg since 1890?
By my knowledge the title "Prince (Princess) of Luxembourg" was not used during the personal union of the two crowns under the Dutch Kings. The head of the House of Orange-Nassau was the King Grand-Duke (Le Roi Grand-Duc), and that was it. There was no "Grand-Ducal House" during the personal union, by my understanding, but I can be wrong anyway. Also in the three super-thick biographies on the Kings Willem I, II and III there was no mention of "Prince (Princess) of Luxembourg" for themselves or their relatives. Would be interesting to learn about that. In the Constitution of Luxembourg of 1868 only the House of Nassau (Article 3) is mentioned, and "princes du sang royal" (article 42). A Prince of the blood royal - which was the Dutch Royal House back then.

http://mjp.univ-perp.fr/constit/lu1868.htm
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