The Royal Forums Coat of Arms


Join The Royal Forums Today
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #181  
Old 01-23-2017, 03:15 PM
Duc_et_Pair's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: City, Netherlands
Posts: 6,978
Quote:
Originally Posted by Countessmeout View Post
The point if this thread was to discus lineage, plain and simple. Whose lineage could be traced furthest back.

If you are only interested in sperm contribution I am sure there are other threads. If not start one. Contrary to what some posters think, they don't have to take over every thread. If you aren't interested in lineage (which included both sides) choose another thread.

The popularity of sites like ancestry.com tells thet people are indeed interested in lineage, knowing where one comes from. And that extends to royals.
You only need to look up to the topic of the thread: "Oldest Royal and Noble families". Just these five words which form the very topic of this thread are twisted into: "Trace the lineage as far as possible".

Very interesting indeed but the five words in bold typo on top of this thread form another starter. Before I am again mauled on Trumpian way (I should leave etc.), I have an interesting question. How old is the noble family Armstrong-Jones, the branch of the Earls of Snowdon and Viscounts Linley?

What do you do now? Trace all male and female descendants of Antony Armstrong-Jones? Or state that the noble family Armstrong-Jones started with the elevation of the first Earl into the peerage?
__________________

  #182  
Old 01-23-2017, 03:24 PM
Lee-Z's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Heerlen, Netherlands
Posts: 2,396
This seems like a good moment to quote the first post in this thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by kcc View Post
what royal/noble families have the oldest traceable ancesty.also is the massimo descent from an ancient roman general(maximus i believe) genuine.i find this fascinating so any info or input is much appreciated.

i forgot to mention that it does not matter wheather it is male or female line descent.

hi. let me start by saying that i have already asked this question in a different part of this forum,but recieved no reply. what royal/noble families have the oldest traceable lineage. also are the roman descents of the massimo, orsiniand antici-matei(sorry about the spelling)families genuine.thanks in advance.
__________________

__________________
Wisdom begins in wonder - Socrates
  #183  
Old 01-23-2017, 03:36 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: *******, Canada
Posts: 5,678
What's the oldest royal house in Europe? Patrilineally, Prince George of Cambridge can trace his ancestors back to 1100

What house are older?
  #184  
Old 01-23-2017, 04:03 PM
Ish's Avatar
Ish Ish is offline
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 3,323
I think we're mixing up two different terms here - Royal House and Royal Family.

A Royal House is the male-line descendants of a common ancestor. A Royal Family is a bit broader and can (although not always) include female line descendants.

Consider Britain; the House of Hanover circa 1841 consisted of a number of members of the British Royal Family; including Ernest Augustus, King of Hanover, Prince Augustus Frederick, Duke of Sussex, Prince Adolphus, Duke of Cambridge, Princess Mary, Duchess of Gloucester and Edinburgh, Princess Sophia, and Queen Victoria - all either children or grandchildren (in Victoria's case) of George III.

The British Royal Family at this time also included Albert, Prince Consort, Princess Victoria, and Albert Edward, Prince of Wales, who of course were of the House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha.

It was one Family, determined by both male and female lines, but two different houses, determined by just male lines. The current BRF is in a similar situation, with the Queen and her cousins belonging to one House and the DoE and his children, grandchildren, and great-grandchildren belonging to another. Sweden and the Netherlands are similar, Denmark has the Queen in one House, but her children and grandchildren in another, and Norway, Belgium, and Spain will all follow suit in the next generation as the heirs are female (or the heir's heir in Norway's case).

The BRF Family goes back to 1066, with the Norman Conquest. The House of Windsor goes back to 1901, with the start of the Reign of Edward VII, while the House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha goes back to 1826. The House of Wettin (of which Saxe-Coburg and Gotha is a cadet branch) goes back to about 916-976.

Now, the House of Windsor as a cadet branch of the House of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glucksburg goes back to 1948, when the DoE married the then Princess Elizabeth. The Greek branch of the House of Glucksburg goes back to 1845, when George I became King of Greece, but House of Glucksburg itself goes back to 1785. Making it even more complicated, the House of Glucksburg is a cadet branch of the House of Oldenburg, which goes back to 1448.
  #185  
Old 01-23-2017, 04:03 PM
Duc_et_Pair's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: City, Netherlands
Posts: 6,978
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudolph View Post
What's the oldest royal house in Europe? Patrilineally, Prince George of Cambridge can trace his ancestors back to 1100

What house are older?
The Capetians (Jean, Henri and Guillaume of Luxembourg as well Juan Carlos, Felipe and Leonor of Spain), the Guelphs (Elizabeth II as well Philippe and Elisabeth of Belgium) and the Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburgs (Margrethe of Denmark, Harald, Haakon and Ingrid Elisabeth of Norway, Philip, Charles and George of the United Kingdom) have the oldest paternal traceable ancestry, if we exclude the possibility of baby-swaps and pregnancies attributed to the wong father.

The House of Nassau can trace itself to around 1000 as well but is extinct in the reigning monarchies and only has a German countess as last agnate. The same counts for the House of Grimaldi: extinct - but the current genealogical dynasty, De Chalencon de Polignac, is very old as well. The Liechtensteiners also can trace it to around 1000.
  #186  
Old 01-23-2017, 04:08 PM
Ish's Avatar
Ish Ish is offline
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 3,323
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudolph View Post
What's the oldest royal house in Europe? Patrilineally, Prince George of Cambridge can trace his ancestors back to 1100

What house are older?

Prince George of Cambridge can trace his ancestors back much further than 1100. Assuming the old Anglo-Saxon genealogies are accurate (which... they likely aren't), he can trace his ancestry back to the first Anglo-Saxon kings of Wessex and even a few Roman Emperors. Acknowledging that the lines aren't entirely accurate, he can further trace his ancestry back to the Norse God Woden. He can also trace his lineage back to King Arthur, although that line is somewhat harder to track down.
  #187  
Old 01-23-2017, 04:17 PM
Duc_et_Pair's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: City, Netherlands
Posts: 6,978
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ish View Post
Prince George of Cambridge can trace his ancestors back much further than 1100. Assuming the old Anglo-Saxon genealogies are accurate (which... they likely aren't), he can trace his ancestry back to the first Anglo-Saxon kings of Wessex and even a few Roman Emperors. Acknowledging that the lines aren't entirely accurate, he can further trace his ancestry back to the Norse God Woden. He can also trace his lineage back to King Arthur, although that line is somewhat harder to track down.
Wodan? Isn't that a mythological figure from Nordic sagas? The one-eyed God always accompagnied by two black ravens? I would like to see traceable proof that Wodan is a genealogical ancestor of William...

;-)
  #188  
Old 01-23-2017, 04:29 PM
Ish's Avatar
Ish Ish is offline
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 3,323
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
Wodan? Isn't that a mythological figure from Nordic sagas? The one-eyed God always accompagnied by two black ravens? I would like to see traceable proof that Wodan is a genealogical ancestor of William...

;-)

That's the one!

I'm at work right now so I don't have the line handy, but I'll post it when I get home.
  #189  
Old 01-23-2017, 04:45 PM
Osipi's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: On the west side of North up from Back, United States
Posts: 8,909
There is also the past influence of some of Celtic nations which for a while had the ruling powers determined by the matriarchal line. How much this affected the families that we would be concerned about in this thread is beyond my range of knowledge but I thought it well worth mentioning.

Celtic Culture and Matriarchy
__________________
“In my walks, every man I meet is my superior in some way, and in that I learn from him.”
~~~Ralph Waldo Emerson~~~
  #190  
Old 01-23-2017, 05:20 PM
Ish's Avatar
Ish Ish is offline
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 3,323
Thank you for the link, Osipi, it's definitely an interesting subject.

For the British Isles, the Celtic traditions may have influenced the old Welsh, Scottish, and Irish principalities/kingdoms, but not the English. The English may have continued to have Celtic genealogy post-Anglo-Saxon migration (from what I understand, new studies are showing that the Anglo-Saxon "conquest" was more of a cultural conquest than an actual full out displacement), but they didn't continue Celtic culture.

That said, there were some old Anglo-Saxon kingdoms that believed that mothers and wives enhanced men's claims to various titles; the women themselves couldn't inherit, but if there were 2 male claimants who were in other ways completely equal in their claim, but one had married the sister of the old king while the other had married someone unrelated, then the old king's brother-in-law had a much better claim.

I can't remember right now all the kingdoms that utilized this way of thinking, but I know Mercia did. Part of how the Wessex kings began to also rule Mercia (other than military dominance) was by marrying Mercian women.
  #191  
Old 01-23-2017, 05:35 PM
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: philadelphia, United States
Posts: 1,300
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudolph View Post
What's the oldest royal house in Europe?
While not strictly considered European Bagration dynasty is the oldest, while if we speak about strictly European it must be House of Capet (todays Bourbons,Bragancas etc.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudolph View Post
Patrilineally, Prince George of Cambridge can trace his ancestors back to 1100
As a member of the House of Oldenburg, his first documented ancestor was Count Egilmar von Lerigau(born around 1040 and died in 1108).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudolph View Post
What house are older?
Do you mean to compare two Houses of Elizabeth II and Prince Philip?

Queen Elizabeth II belongs to the Saxe-Coburg-Gotha dynasty which is collateral branch of the House of Wettin.

Prince Philip belongs to the Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg dynasty which again is collateral branch of the House of Oldenburg.

First known ancestor of the House of Oldenburg was Count Egilmar von Lerigau(1040-1108), while first known ancestor of the House of Wettin was Count Dietrich von Hassegau(died in 976).

So, House of Wettin is older than House of Oldenburg.
  #192  
Old 01-23-2017, 06:33 PM
Countessmeout's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: alberta, Canada
Posts: 5,882
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
You only need to look up to the topic of the thread: "Oldest Royal and Noble families". Just these five words which form the very topic of this thread are twisted into: "Trace the lineage as far as possible".

Very interesting indeed but the five words in bold typo on top of this thread form another starter. Before I am again mauled on Trumpian way (I should leave etc.), I have an interesting question. How old is the noble family Armstrong-Jones, the branch of the Earls of Snowdon and Viscounts Linley?

What do you do now? Trace all male and female descendants of Antony Armstrong-Jones? Or state that the noble family Armstrong-Jones started with the elevation of the first Earl into the peerage?
No, you have to look up the Original post. Which clearly defines the guidelines. No one but your incessant need to count sperm has twisted anything. The Originsl intention of this post was to trace lineage, both female and male. Not everyone believes only sperm counts, obviously the OP didn't.

For your sperm counting ways I guess we only trace the male line. But the purpose of this thread is lineage which means women to. See the difference, not everyone lives by your rules.

For your sperm obsession ways I tried to stick patrilineal but we can't get past his great grandfather. But on his mothers side, I was able to trace back until the 16th century to this German ancestor. It is the patrilineal line if Anne's three times patrilineal great grandmother. So two little female hiccups for you.
https://www.geni.com/people/Moses-Bi...00000157515096
  #193  
Old 01-23-2017, 09:01 PM
Osipi's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: On the west side of North up from Back, United States
Posts: 8,909
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc23 View Post
Prince Philip belongs to the Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg dynasty which again is collateral branch of the House of Oldenburg.
By this statement are you stating that Philip's relation to the House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha is lesser or inferior to Elizabeth's even though both of them are great great grandchildren of Albert and Victoria?
__________________
“In my walks, every man I meet is my superior in some way, and in that I learn from him.”
~~~Ralph Waldo Emerson~~~
  #194  
Old 01-23-2017, 09:04 PM
Ish's Avatar
Ish Ish is offline
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 3,323
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
Wodan? Isn't that a mythological figure from Nordic sagas? The one-eyed God always accompagnied by two black ravens? I would like to see traceable proof that Wodan is a genealogical ancestor of William...

;-)
As promised, one of the lines:
  1. Prince George of Cambridge
  2. Prince William, Duke of Cambridge
  3. Prince Charles, Prince of Wales
  4. Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh
  5. Prince Andrew of Greece and Denmark
  6. George I of Greece
  7. Christian IX of Denmark
  8. Friedrich Wilhelm of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Beck
  9. Friedrich Karl Ludwig of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Beck
  10. Karl Anton of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Beck
  11. Peter August of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Beck
  12. Frederick Louis of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Beck
  13. August Philip of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Beck
  14. Alexander of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg
  15. John II of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg
  16. Christian III of Denmark
  17. Frederick I of Denmark
  18. Christian I of Denmark
  19. Dietrich of Oldenburg
  20. Christian V of Oldenburg
  21. Conrad I of Oldenburg
  22. John II of Oldenburg
  23. Hedwig von Oldenburg
  24. Heinrich IV of Oldenburg in Wildeshausen
  25. Burchard of Oldenburg in Wildeshausen
  26. Heinrich II of Oldenburg in Wildeshausen
  27. Salome van Gelre
  28. Gerard II of Gerle
  29. Gerard I of Gerle
  30. Diederik of Wassenburg
  31. Gerard II Hendrik Wassenburg of Hamaland
  32. Gerard I of Wassenburg
  33. Flemensis
  34. Arnulf I of Flanders
  35. Ælfthryth of Wessex
  36. Alfred the Great
  37. Æthelwulf of Wessex
  38. Egbert of Wessex
  39. Ealmund of Kent
  40. Eafa
  41. Eoppa
  42. Ingild
  43. Coenred
  44. Ceoldwald
  45. Cutha Cathwulf
  46. Cuthwine of Wessex
  47. Cealwin of Wessex
  48. Cynric of Wessex
  49. Cerdic of Wessex (first Wessex King)
  50. Elsa
  51. Elea
  52. Gewis
  53. Brond
  54. Bældæg
  55. Woden
I'm not sure if this is the most direct route, but it is the most senior line; up until John II of Oldenburg it's an all male line, and again from Alfred the Great up until Woden himself I believe it's also all male. How much it's verifiable before about Ealmund of Kent is a bit debatable.


Through different lines, he's actually a (reputed) ancestor of George of Cambridge through his Windsor ancestors, his Mountbatten ancestors, his Spencer and Roche ancestors, and his Middleton and Goldsmith ancestors. Gerard I of Gerle is a common ancestor for all 6 lines, Christian I of Denmark is a common ancestor for all of George's paternal lines, Christian III of Denmark is a common ancestor for the Windsor, Mountbatten, and Spencer lines, and Christian IX of Denmark is a common ancestor for both the Windsor and Mountbatten lines.
  #195  
Old 01-24-2017, 01:25 AM
Lee-Z's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Heerlen, Netherlands
Posts: 2,396
Very cool
__________________
Wisdom begins in wonder - Socrates
  #196  
Old 01-24-2017, 03:50 AM
Stefan's Avatar
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Esslingen, Germany
Posts: 3,736
Closed for Moderyator Review
__________________

Closed Thread


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Royal, Princely and Noble Families of Germany & Austria 2 Dulce Elena Royal Families of Austria and Germany 252 09-11-2017 10:16 AM
Italian Noble and Princely Families 2: July 2007- Warren Royal Families of Italy 564 06-11-2017 05:18 PM
Princely and Noble Families of Hungary and Bohemia Adrienna Royal Families of Austria and Germany 44 12-30-2014 09:24 PM
Italian Noble and Princely Families 1: June 2004 - July 2007 Lord Williams Royal Families of Italy 206 07-20-2007 05:48 AM




Popular Tags
albania autographs baptism best gown september 2016 best outfit best outfit september 2016 birthday coel hen crown princess mary crown princess mary fashion current events december denmark duchess of cambridge duchess of cambridge cocktail dresses duchess of cambridge eveningwear far-right fashion poll king abdullah ii king philippe lists monaco monarchy morgan multiple births nazi nobel nobel gala november 2016 october 2016 paris picture of the week pieter van vollenhoven prince charles prince liam princess marie fashion princess marie style princess mary princess mary fashion princess sofia queen elizabeth ii queen frederika queen letizia queen letizia casual outfits queen letizia cocktail dresses queen letizia daytime fashion queen letizia eveningwear queen letizia fashion queen mathilde queen mathilde daytime fashion queen mathilde fashion queen mathildes hats queen maxima queen maxima casual wear queen maxima daytime fashion queen maxima fashion queen maxima hats queen maxima style queen rania queen rania fashion rohan family state visit succession sweden swedish royal family the duchess of cambridge casual wear the duchess of cambridge daytime fashion the duchess of cambridge fashion the duchess of cambridge hats what ifs


Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities


Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:52 AM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2017
Jelsoft Enterprises