Frankish & Holy Roman Empires, Germanic States & Families, Central Europe

[LordMountbatten]

Queen Victoria and Prince Albert

Queen Victoria’s marriage to Prince Albert, and the subsequent marriages of their many, highly eligible, offsprings -- is well known. But during the earlier, less well-documented period before their marriage, the most astute of the Saxe-Coburg-Saalfield (later Saxe-Coburg-Gotha) family – Leopold, Prince Albert’s uncle and subsequently King of the Belgians, and Prince Albert's mother, the Dowager Duchess Augusta – worked behind the scenes.

The Duchy of Coburg was ruled by the Saxe-Coburg-Gotha family in the late nineteenth century. It was a small, impoverished German fiefdom with no political influence, and little prospect of improving its lot. But, less than fifty years later, the family's finances became healthy and they held, or were closely related to, many of the crowns of Europe. By the beginning of the twentieth century, the genes of the Saxe-Coburg-Gotha family ran in no fewer than thirteen royal families.

 

[Iluvbertie]

Queen Victoria’s marriage to Prince Albert, and the subsequent marriages of their many, highly eligible, offsprings -- is well known. But during the earlier, less well-documented period before their marriage, the most astute of the Saxe-Coburg-Saalfield (later Saxe-Coburg-Gotha) family – Leopold, Prince Albert’s uncle and subsequently King of the Belgians, and Prince Albert's mother, the Dowager Duchess Augusta – worked behind the scenes.

Prince Leopold was also Victoria's uncle.

Albert's father and Victoria's mother were brother and sister and Leopold was another brother within that same family.

 

[LordMountbatten]

Prince Leopold was also Victoria's uncle.

Albert's father and Victoria's mother were brother and sister and Leopold was another brother within that same family.

But the question is, was Albert really Ernst I's son? Albert's mother Louise had affaires as much as his father had. The marriage broke down immediately after Albert was born. So, even if Ernst I recognized Albert as his own son, there is a possibility that Albert wasn't his son.

 

[rossam]

But the question is, was Albert really Ernst I's son? Albert's mother Louise had affaires as much as his father had. The marriage broke down immediately after Albert was born. So, even if Ernst I recognized Albert as his own son, there is a possibility that Albert wasn't his son.

So the royals were inbreeding since Queen Victoria's time. I really thought they started that only in the early 1900s. But, the angle on Albert's paternity is quite intriguing. For now, I'm inclined to believe that Albert isn't Ernst I's son because it makes for a good story. lol

I'll search for more stories about them.

 

[LordMountbatten]

The story on Prince Albert's paternity is really intriguing. It is rumored that he was the son of his mother's servant, a certain Friedrich Blum, others say his uncle, Leopold I of Belgium. You can read more about this in Richard Sotnick's book "The Coburg Conspiracy".

 

[almasy]

Count Almasy Family Tree?

Does anyone have a link to (or an attachment of) a family tree for Count Lazslo Almasy (AKA "The English Patient")? My great-great-grandfather was a George Almasy who was said to have been born around/near Torokszentmiklos. His wife was Sofia. I do not believe this is the same George that was the father of Lazslo Almasy, but perhaps a cousin? Any info would be helpful!!!

Thank you!
Christina

 

[Dalps09]

There you go:
Almásy 1
(The line continues on a second page if you click ''here'')

 

[hoda]

The Egyption Western desert

Count Almasy has a speical place in our hearts ,the Egyptions ,the guy was so fond of the Egyption western desert.His contributions to the western desert is undeniable .As for the English patient movie ,The movie is my addiction,the music ,the novel it self is a dream to any one .

Here is some links about Almashy:

László Almásy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Fliegel Jezerniczky Expeditions

 

[Hereditary Thane]

The ancient Celtic dynasties had a very good system of succession and inheritence. The royal and kingly succession was through the female line. Female royal dynasts though had to marry a "foreign" prince if their son was to be cosidered king. It is a wise child that knows its father. But didn't George V or George VI publicly deny Friedrich Blum was his ancestor when Zionists were proclaiming Blum to be Jewish? DNA testing is so sophisticated these days that in the near future historians may have a few surprises for us.

 

[David V]

Niklot - progenitor of the House of Mecklenburg

The area of present-day Mecklenburg was home to West Slavic peoples who once inhabited large parts of eastern Germany, the surviving remnants of which are the Sorbs.

The Obotrites were a confederation of West Slavs around the Mecklenburg region. A prince of the Obotrites, Niklot was known for resisting conversion to Christianity. His son Pribislav would become the first prince of Mecklenburg, becoming Christianised and the family, like much of the population, gradually became Germanised. The House of Mecklenburg thus ruled the area until 1918, Niklot is not only the progenitor of the Mecklenburg line that lives on today (Mecklenburg-Strelitz) but also an ancestor of Queen Juliana of the Netherlands.

In view of its Slavic origins, the House of Mecklenburg was one of the few royal houses of direct Slavic origin existing at the start of the 20th century- the royal families of Serbia and Montenegro being others.

 

[Hereditary Thane]

This is interesting. For anyone who wishes to further their studies of the earliest Slavic royal dynasties they should consult Professor Bohuslav Chropovsky's excellent publication (Orbis, Prague 1989) The Slavs: Their Significance Political and Cultural History.

I suspect that many more ruling dynasties within the present German borders were originally of Slavic origin. And remember, to suggest that even 40 years ago would have been anathema in well upholstered places.

 

[Lenora]

Countess Elizabeth Bathory and her ancestory

I have always been fascinated with the story of "Vampire Bloody Countess",it seemed unbelievable to me that such a pretty woman was able to kill so many people and to be so cruel.She was sentenced to death,but then placed under the house arrest.From other side,I've read that cruelty was a common thing in those harsh times and it supposed that she was not so guilty .For example,as a Transylvanian Protestant aristocrat,the countess belonged to a group generally opposed to Habsburgs.I wonder what happened to her children from her marriage to Ferenc Nadasdy and If I am not wrong,she had an illegitimate child as well.
So,could we find who are her present day descendants?
http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=1234108

 

[MonarchistKate]

Princess Sophie of Prussia

Actually it's not my discovery, I know it from a member of another Monarchy Forum. HI&RH Princess Sophie of Prussia(born Princess of Isenburg), wife of Prince Georg Friedrich, is descended from Genghis Khan! Here is the lineage:

Georg Friedrich, Prince of Prussia m Princess Sophie of Isenburg
Franz Alexander, Prince of Isenburg
Franz Ferdinand, Prince of Isenburg m Countess Irina Tolstaia
Count Alexander Tolstoi
Count Mikhail Tolstoi m Princess Olga Wassiltchikov
Prince Alexander Wassiltchikov
Prince Hilarion Wassiltchikov m Tatiana Pachkov
Vassile Pachkov m Countess Ekaterina Tolstaia
Count Alexander Tolstoi m Evdokia Izmailova
Lev Izmailov m Princess Anna Galitzina
Prince Mikhail Galitzin
Prince Mikhail Galitzin
Prince Andrei Galitzine
Prince Andrey Galitzine
Prince Ivan Bulgakow-Golitsyn
Prince Yuri Bulgakow-Golitsyn
Prince Mikhail Bulgakow-Golitsyn
Ivan Bulgak, Prince Patrikijew
Vasile Jurinpoika, Prince Patrikijew
Jurij Patrikijevitch
Prince Patrikej Glebovitch, Duke of Starodub
Narimantas Gediminaitis, Grand Prince of Veliki Novgorod m Marija
Mongke Temur, Khan of the Golden Horde m Khatun Oljaitu
Saljudal, Garugan of the Quingirat m Khatun Khalmish Aga
Khan Qutugtu
Tolui Khan
Genghis Khan
Georg Friedrich, Prince of Prussia m Princess Sophie of Isenburg
Franz Alexander, Prince of Isenburg
Franz Ferdinand, Prince of Isenburg m Countess Irina Tolstaia
Count Alexander Tolstoi
Count Mikhail Tolstoi m Princess Olga Wassiltchikov
Prince Alexander Wassiltchikov
Prince Hilarion Wassiltchikov m Tatiana Pachkov
Vassile Pachkov m Countess Ekaterina Tolstaia
Count Alexander Tolstoi m Evdokia Izmailova
Lev Izmailov m Princess Anna Galitzina
Prince Mikhail Galitzin
Prince Mikhail Galitzin
Prince Andrei Galitzine
Prince Andrey Galitzine
Prince Ivan Bulgakow-Golitsyn
Prince Yuri Bulgakow-Golitsyn
Prince Mikhail Bulgakow-Golitsyn
Ivan Bulgak, Prince Patrikijew
Vasile Jurinpoika, Prince Patrikijew
Jurij Patrikijevitch
Prince Patrikej Glebovitch, Duke of Starodub
Narimantas Gediminaitis, Grand Prince of Veliki Novgorod m Marija
Mongke Temur, Khan of the Golden Horde m Khatun Oljaitu
Saljudal, Garugan of the Quingirat m Khatun Khalmish Aga
Khan Qutugtu
Tolui Khan
Genghis Khan

 

[Marc23]

Many of the royals are actually descendants of Genghis Khan,including Queen Elizabeth II who has even descended from Chinese dynasties...her line from the Chinese Emperors(through Mary of Teck) was an official present to her when she visited China in 1986.

P.S.Love those unusual lines...thank you for the effort!

 

[Marc23]

Or why date this Xenia Maculan?

At least they are related and she is descendant of many great families such as Liechtenstein,Furstenberg,Dietrichstein,Solms,Hohenlohe,Lippe,Hohenzollern, Fugger,Oettingen and so on and on...

 

[fearghas]

At least they are related and she is descendant of many great families such as Liechtenstein,Furstenberg,Dietrichstein,Solms,Hohenlohe,Lippe,Hohenzollern, Fugger,Oettingen and so on and on...

I must have missed this, how is she related?

 

[Saschana]

I must have missed this, how is she related?

Probably through her mother Maria, haven't checked it in detail, who is a born Countess of Goëß-Saurau. Her father was Count Carl-Anton of Goëss-Saurau and her mother Baroness Maria Mayr of Melnhof, her sister Cecilie is the Princess of Waldeck-Pyrmont.

 

[Marc23]

Probably through her mother Maria, haven't checked it in detail, who is a born Countess of Goëß-Saurau. Her father was Count Carl-Anton of Goëss-Saurau and her mother Baroness Maria Mayr of Melnhof, her sister Cecilie is the Princess of Waldeck-Pyrmont.

Yes,through her mother Maria,she is a descendant of almost every important family of the Empire including those I named in previous post...

 

[Adelheid]

At least they are related and she is descendant of many great families such as Liechtenstein,Furstenberg,Dietrichstein,Solms,Hohenlohe,Lippe,Hohenzollern, Fugger,Oettingen and so on and on...

Marc23, you have a really “vivid” imagination! But in fact, it's not true what your saying: Xenia Maculan's mother hasn't got any of these names you've mentioned in her family tree!


Here's a link where you can see the real ancestors of Xenia Maculan's grandpa Carl-Anton, Graf von Goëss-Saurau:
GeneAll.net - Carl-Anton, Graf von Goss-Saurau

 

[Marengo]

Indeed, these families may not all be among her close anscestors. But still, but there are quite a few interesting names in the Goëss genealogy:

Go

Her mothers younger sister Cecilia is married to the Fürst of Waldeck-Pyrmont and a distant cousin is married to Duchess Eleonore Fleur of Württemberg. For the rest mainly Austrian-Hungarian aristocracy as far as I can see.

 

[Saschana]

Marc23, you have a really “vivid” imagination! But in fact, it's not true what your saying: Xenia Maculan's mother hasn't got any of these names you've mentioned in her family tree!


Here's a link where you can see the real ancestors of Xenia Maculan's grandpa Carl-Anton, Graf von Goëss-Saurau:
GeneAll.net - Carl-Anton, Graf von Goss-Saurau

In fact she does. I don't know about all of them but she definetely descends from the Liechtenstein princely family. She descends from Prince Emanuel of Liechtenstein, who was the brother of Prince Josef-Wenzel I. and the father of Prince Franz Josef I.

Prince Emanuel of Liechtenstein - Prince Karl of Liechtenstein - Prince Karl of Liechtenstein - Prince Karl of Liechtenstein - Princess Anna of Liechtenstein - Princess Franziska of Trauttmansdorff-Weinsberg - Countess Franziska of Schönborn-Buchheim - Princess Maria of Hohenlohe-Schillingsfürst - Baroness Maria Mathilde Mayr of Melnhof - Countess Maria of Goëss-Saurau - Xenia Maculan

 

[Saschana]

You kinda got me started...

She also descends from the Waldenburg branch of the House of Hohenlohe (Hohenlohe-Schillingsfürst):

Prince Conrad zu Hohenlohe-Schillingsfürst - Princess Maria of Hohenlohe-Schillingsfürst - Baroness Maria Mathilde Mayr of Melnhof - Countess Maria of Goëss-Saurau - Xenia Maculan

Xenia also descends from the House of Lippe through the Lippe-Brake branch who died out in 1709:

Count Otto zur Lippe-Brake - Count Casimir zur Lippe-Brake - Countess Hedwig Sophie zur Lippe-Brake - Count Ludwig Franz of Sayn-Wittgenstein-Ludwigsburg - Count Christian of Sayn-Wittgenstein-Ludwigsburg - Prince Ludwig zu Sayn-Wittgenstein - Prince Nikolaus zu Sayn-Wittgenstein-Ludwigsburg - Princess Marie zu Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg - Prince Conrad zu Hohenlohe-Schillingsfürst - Princess Maria of Hohenlohe-Schillingsfürst - Baroness Maria Mathilde Mayr of Melnhof - Countess Maria of Goëss-Saurau - Xenia Maculan

Her link to the Dietrichstein family:

Count Franz of Dietrichstein-Ehreneck und Pfaffendorf - Countess Maria Theresia of Dietrichstein-Ehreneck und Pfaffendorf - Count Karl Theodor of Christalnigg-Gilitzstein - Countess Maria Anna of Christalnigg-Gilitzstein - Count Johann Karl of Goëss - Count Johann of Goëss, Baron of Karlsberg und Moosburg - Count Leopold of Goëss - Count Johann of Goëss - Count Carl-Anton of Goëss-Saurau - Countess Maria of Goëss-Saurau - Xenia Maculan

Marc23, you have a really “vivid” imagination! But in fact, it's not true what your saying: Xenia Maculan's mother hasn't got any of these names you've mentioned in her family tree!


Here's a link where you can see the real ancestors of Xenia Maculan's grandpa Carl-Anton, Graf von Goëss-Saurau:
GeneAll.net - Carl-Anton, Graf von Goss-Saurau

Not even an hour of searching shows that she is related to at least four of the following families - Liechtenstein, Dietrichstein, Hohelohe and Lippe. If you look closely you might also find links to the other families.

At least they are related and she is descendant of many great families such as Liechtenstein,Furstenberg,Dietrichstein,Solms,Hohenlohe,Lippe,Hohenzollern, Fugger,Oettingen and so on and on...

 

[Adelheid]

Not even an hour of searching shows that she is related to at least four of the following families - Liechtenstein, Dietrichstein, Hohelohe and Lippe. If you look closely you might also find links to the other families.

You are right Saschana, with your instructions I've found the direct line to these 4 ancestors, but I'm sorry, I cannot find the other 5: Fürstenberg, Solms, Hohenzollern, Fugger and Oettingen.
Please if you can find the direct line to these others tell us the combination like for the first 4. Thank you very much.


Marc23, I offer my apologies about this 4 ancestors of the 9 you mentioned.

 

[Marc23]

You are right Saschana, with your instructions I've found the direct line to these 4 ancestors, but I'm sorry, I cannot find the other 5: Fürstenberg, Solms, Hohenzollern, Fugger and Oettingen.
Please if you can find the direct line to these others tell us the combination like for the first 4. Thank you very much.


Marc23, I offer my apologies about this 4 ancestors of the 9 you mentioned.

Don't worry,I love challenges


There are more links with Furstenberg family...this is one of the lines to Xenia:


Landgraf Friedrich von Furstenberg
I
Princess Constanze zu Furstenberg
I
Countess Emilie Chorinsky von Ledske
I
Count Johann Duclas von Thurn und Valsassina-Como-Vercelli
I
Countess Marianne von Thurn und Valsassina-Como-Vercelli
I
Count Johann Zeno von Goess-Saurau
I
Count Carl Anton von Goess-Saurau
I
Countess Maria von Goess-Saurau
I
Xenia Maculan



Here is one also just one of the connections to Solms family:


Count Johann Christian II von Solms-Baruth
I
Countess Amalie von Solms-Baruth
I
Princess Constanze von Hohenlohe-Langenburg
I
Prince Constantin von H-W-S,von Ratibor und Corvey
I
Prince Konrad von H-W-S,von Ratibor und Corvey
I
Princess Marie von H-W-S,von Ratibor und Corvey
I
Baroness Maria Mayr von Melnhoff
I
Countess Maria von Goess Saurau
I
Xenia Maculan



Here is also just one of the lines from Oettingen family:



Prince Johann Aloys I von Oettingen-Spielberg
I
Princess Eleonore von Oettingen-Spielberg
I
Prince Karl von und zu Liechtenstein
I
Princess Anna von und zu Liechtenstin
I
Countess Franziska von Trauttmansdorff-Weinsberg
I
Countess Franziska von Schonborn-Buchheim
I
Princess Marie von H-W-S,von Ratibor und Corvey
I
Baroness Maria Mayr von Melnhoff
I
Countess Maria von Goess Saurau
I
Xenia Maculan



Here is also just of the lines from Hohenzollern family:



Prince Johann Georg I von Hohenzollern-Hechingen
I
Princess Maria Anna von Hohenzollern-Hechingen
I
Princess Anna Maria zu Furstenberg
I
Countess Amelia von Lowenstein-Wertheim-Rochefort
I
Countess Ernestine von Orsini und Rosenberg
I
Prince Johann Josef von Khevenhuller-Metsch
I
Count Franz Anton von Khevenhuller-Metsch
I
Countess Josepha von Khevenhuller-Metsch
I
Prince Karl von und zu Liechtenstein
I
Princess Anna von und zu Liechtenstin
I
Countess Franziska von Trauttmansdorff-Weinsberg
I
Countess Franziska von Schonborn-Buchheim
I
Princess Marie von H-W-S,von Ratibor und Corvey
I
Baroness Maria Mayr von Melnhoff
I
Countess Maria von Goess Saurau
I
Xenia Maculan



Here is also just of the lines from the Fugger family:



Count Max Fugger von Kirchberg und Weissenhorn
I
Countess Maria Fugger
I
Countess Maria Sofia Palffy von Erdod
I
Count Adam von Trauttmansdorff-Weinsberg
I
Count Rudolf von Trauttmansdorff-Weinsberg
I
Count Johann Josef von Trauttmansdorff-Weinsberg
I
Count Franz Norbert von Trauttmansdorff-Weinsberg
I
Prince Ferdinand von Trauttmansdorff-Weinsberg
I
Countess Franziska von Trauttmansdorff-Weinsberg
I
Countess Franziska von Schonborn-Buchheim
I
Princess Marie von H-W-S,von Ratibor und Corvey
I
Baroness Maria Mayr von Melnhoff
I
Countess Maria von Goess Saurau
I
Xenia Maculan



Apart from this she has also descended from Swedish Kings,Mecklenburg Dukes,Schleswig-Holstein dukes,Nassau statholders and even from the Habsburgs who were Holy Roman Emperors...


Here is her line from the Habsburg Holy Roman Emperor:



Holy Roman Emperor Friedrich III
I
Archduchess Kunigunde of Austria
I
Duchess Sabina of Bavaria
I
Duke Christoph von Wurttemberg
I
Duchess Sophie von Wurttemberg
I
Landgraf Moritz "der Gelehrte" von Hessen-Kassel
I
Princess Agnes von Hessen-Kassel
I
Princess Luise von Anhalt-Dessau
I
Princess Karoline von Liegnitz-Brieg
I
Duke Leopold von Schleswig-Holstein-Weisenburg
I
Duchess Theresia von Schleswig-Holstein-Weisenburg
I
Princess Eleonore von Oettingen-Spielberg
I
Prince Karl von und zu Liechtenstein
I
Princess Anna von und zu Liechtenstin
I
Countess Franziska von Trauttmansdorff-Weinsberg
I
Countess Franziska von Schonborn-Buchheim
I
Princess Marie von H-W-S,von Ratibor und Corvey
I
Baroness Maria Mayr von Melnhoff
I
Countess Maria von Goess Saurau
I
Xenia Maculan


I think this should be enough just to prove my point

Marc

One other interesting thing is that Xenia is also descendant of Glora's family...to be exact of Georg I von Schonburg-Glauchau

 

[Kataryn]

I think this should be enough just to prove my point

Marc

One other interesting thing is that Xenia is also descendant of Glora's family...to be exact of Georg I von Schonburg-Glauchau

I guess Gloria's problem will be with the paternal side of the family tree. AFAIK you're not considered noble if just your mother is of noble descent and on the father's side only if the mother is a noble as well. So I still doubt that Xenia fits the bill - Countess as mother is probably not enough for Gloria...

 

[fearghas]

I guess Gloria's problem will be with the paternal side of the family tree. AFAIK you're not considered noble if just your mother is of noble descent and on the father's side only if the mother is a noble as well. So I still doubt that Xenia fits the bill - Countess as mother is probably not enough for Gloria...

An excellent pedigree on the mothers side doesn't make her noble if the father isn't, just related to nobility.
There are also links though not descent to the Counts von Meran.

 

[Marc23]

Nearly all the modern heirs to the throne or their siblings have not of noble or royal blood husbands and wives and sometimes even not so rich.

I wasn't thinking about ruling royals at all,but about nobles,as I wrote...

There are many examples of noble/noble marriages in recent years,especially in Germany as Albert is also part of that set:


Prince Manuel von Bayern=Princess Anna zu Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg

Prince Ferdinand zur Lippe-Weissenfeld=Princess Augusta of Bavaria

Princess Alice of Bavaria=Prince Lukas von Auersperg

Prince Georg Friedrich of Prussia=Princess Sophie zu Isenburg

Prince Dominik von Lowenstein-Wertheim-Freudenberg=Countess Olga von Catell-Rudenhausen

Prince Ludwig zu Sayn-Wittgenstein-Sayn=Countess Philippa Spannocchi

Prince Ludwig von Schonburg-Hartenstein=Countess Elisabeth von Beaufort-Spontin

Count Rodolphe von Limburg-Stirum=Archduchess Marie-Christine of Austria

Count Ulrich von Mamming=Archduchess Veronika of Austria

Duchess Tatjana von Oldenburg=Count Axel de Chavagnac

Princess Paola Maria Sapeiha-Rozanska y Orleans-Braganca=Prince Constantin Swiatopolk-Czetwertynski

Count Alexander zu Stolberg-Stolberg=Princess Isabel de Orelans-Braganca

Princess Antonia zu Salm-Salm=Count Emanuel von Mirbach-Harff

Prince Antonius zu Furstenberg=Donna Matilde Borromeo-Arese dei Principi di Angera

Archduke Martin of Austria=Princess Katharina zu Isenburg

Princess Georgina von Hohenlohe-Bartenstein=Count Clemens Douglas

Prince Christian zu Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg=Princess Alice zu Hohenlohe-Bartenstein


and many,many more...

 

[Adelheid]

Don't worry,I love challenges


There are more links with Furstenberg family...

Landgraf Friedrich von Furstenberg
I
Princess Constanze zu Furstenberg
I
Countess Emilie Chorinsky von Ledske
I
Count Johann Duclas von Thurn und Valsassina-Como-Vercelli
I
Countess Marianne von Thurn und Valsassina-Como-Vercelli
I
Count Johann Zeno von Goess-Saurau
I
Count Carl Anton von Goess-Saurau
I
Countess Maria von Goess-Saurau
I
Xenia Maculan

Marc23 thanks for your message, but at geneall.net is no direct line or connection to the “zu Fürstenbergs” ...Look at these links:


Countess Emilie Chorinsky von Ledske married 28.05.1833 Georg von Thurn und Valsássina-Como-Vercelli and your information says, that her granddaughter is Countess Marianne von Thurn und Valsassina-Como-Vercelli but she was born 10.09.1835 only 2 years after Emilie's wedding ...


At these geneall.net links you can see these are two different lines, Count Johann Duclas von Thurn und Valsassina-Como-Vercelli is not a son of Countess Emilie Chorinsky von Ledske



GeneAll.net - Emilie, Grfin Chorinsky

Landgraf Friedrich von Fürstenberg
I
Princess Constanze zu Fürstenberg
I
Countess Emilie Chorinsky von Ledske oo28.05.1833 Georg von Thurn und Valsássina-Como-Vercelli



GeneAll.net - Duglas, Graf von Thurn und Valsassina-Como-Vercelli
I
Count Johann Duclas von Thurn und Valsassina-Como-Vercelli
I
Countess Marianne von Thurn und Valsassina-Como-Vercelli *10.09.1835
I
Count Johann Zeno von Goess-Saurau
I
Count Carl Anton von Goess-Saurau
I
Countess Maria von Goess-Saurau
I
Xenia Maculan

 

[Seraphine]

Exactly...it seems that Germany is still some kind of an "island" where noble marriages are not that rare...

There is a reason for it. Countess Christine of Brühl wrote an interesting book about it named "Noblesse oblige":

Noble children always go to the same schools, to certain boarding schools like Kloster Wald or Luisenlund or Kolleg St.Blasien, because most nobles live countrysides in their castles and really good schools are often not around. Another reason is that hereditary princes become employers one day and parents don't want them to mix around with their future workers ( which could bring them into a dilemma like "do you know what I've done once for you ....?")


When in puberty, they often spend holidays together in someones castle
(there is constant endeavor to embed the nobles from former eastern Germany, who lost everything, to West German noble events, to have a bigger group of possible marriage candidates).
Here they learn ballroomdancing and do charity work. Girls from parents without castles are often teached how to keep a castle ( just for the case they marry an heir) and do things like flower arrangements. Very often they reherase a play for someones jubileebirthday. There are activities like "Adel auf dem Radel" where a group of noble teenager go from castle to castle by bike and do some charity work or just have fun together.
Gloria wrote in her interview book, that when Albert and his sisters were young, she often did sport and play weeks in castle Taxis. Hosts are very generous in those weeks and give their children certain freedom. BUT of course ONLY noble children do take part in this. No Mixture!
I heard about many "Xenias" ( mommy noble, daddy not) who never were invited to such very important livetime connection events. This stuff is ALWAYS the same people, thats why the most nobles know each other very well respectively there are those certain circles ( southwest nobles, nobles from Franken, Rheinland....)

Especially when young nobles start to study the hot phase starts. The Teenager time was society training, no it's getting real. When noble children go to university top class manners are anticipated by other nobles, but especially commonors.
Now the most future married couples come together. In semesterholidays, which are longer in Germany than in anglosaxonian areas, cometogethers are arranged. Now they go to huntings and balls ( jubilees, weddings...).

Parents, especially mums and aunts, tatter the Gotha to find a proper partner. They also make sure, that nobles stay together in the towns they study. The best situation is a shared flat with some other "von", girls and boys separated of course. There is a very tough weekly routine of balls, weddings, dopes, hunting events ans so on, so that many nobles don't even have the time to spend weekends with commoners. There's of course a plan behind that routine: To avoid your noble child has tighter contact to commoners, especially of the other sex.

There is ONLY one more or less accepted exception: Heirs from "old" upper class families with a lot of inheritage ( from 5 Mio $ on up to no limit) because 90 % of the noble families need a money shot one day, because noble living cost.

And of course the obligatory pilgrims, where every "normal" noble teenager/ twentysomething has to go one day.

Just two small examples: Georg Prussia and Sophie Isenburg were a couple during study times - lost themselves in late twentys - are were brought together again by their mothers ( close friends).

Albert stayed close to Lukas Auersperg when studying.


There is a very big pressure on nobles, but on the other hand they often even know just a hand of commonors, who make just a few percent towards the big extended families. it depends on the parents and their influence. I don't want to say, that those couples don't love each other, but it's laboratory feeling. In free nature the might find other partners.


Royal children of ruling monarchies towards that do often accompaign their parents, have to go to public schools to show populism etc. They play in another "league" which keeps them away of the noble dump.

 

[Saschana]

Marc23 thanks for your message, but at geneall.net is no direct line or connection to the “zu Fürstenbergs” ...Look at these links:


Countess Emilie Chorinsky von Ledske married 28.05.1833 Georg von Thurn und Valsássina-Como-Vercelli and your information says, that her granddaughter is Countess Marianne von Thurn und Valsassina-Como-Vercelli but she was born 10.09.1835 only 2 years after Emilie's wedding ...


At these geneall.net links you can see these are two different lines, Count Johann Duclas von Thurn und Valsassina-Como-Vercelli is not a son of Countess Emilie Chorinsky von Ledske



GeneAll.net - Emilie, Grfin Chorinsky

Landgraf Friedrich von Fürstenberg
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Princess Constanze zu Fürstenberg
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Countess Emilie Chorinsky von Ledske oo28.05.1833 Georg von Thurn und Valsássina-Como-Vercelli



GeneAll.net - Duglas, Graf von Thurn und Valsassina-Como-Vercelli
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Count Johann Duclas von Thurn und Valsassina-Como-Vercelli
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Countess Marianne von Thurn und Valsassina-Como-Vercelli *10.09.1835
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Count Johann Zeno von Goess-Saurau
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Count Carl Anton von Goess-Saurau
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Countess Maria von Goess-Saurau
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Xenia Maculan

I think the dates are wrong, have a look here - della Torre (von Thurn und Valsssina) 10

A1. Georg, Freiherr zum Kreuz, *Praha 3.1.1788, +Wien 9.2.1866; m.Wien 28.5.1833 Gfn Emilie Chorinsky Frn von Ledske (*Brno (Brünn) 14.1.1811, +Bleiburg 14.8.1888)

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B2. Johann Duclas, *Mainz 22.9.1835, +Streiteben 26.7.1904; m.Irlbach 9.8.1863 Gfn Gabrielle von Bray-Steinburg (*München (Munich) 10.2.1841, +Wien 6.1.1892), dau.of Gf Otto Kamillus Hugo Gabriel von Bray-Steinburg and Donna Ippolita Dentice dei Principi di Frasso

• C1. Marianne, *Streiteben 10.9.1869, +Graz 21.4.1940; m.Bleiburg 24.7.1889 Gf Leopold Peter von Goëß (*Graz 28.10.1848, +Ebenthal 22.7.1922)

If she would have been born in 1835 she would have married at the age of 54 and would have had her last child at the age of 66. Rather unlikely I'd say