Four Generations

[seriykotik1970]

I am new on this forum, and basically joined it to ask a question that's been bothering me for a while. It is about this picture- a Victorian commerative 'die cut' scrap depicting Queen Victoria, the Prince of Wales, a young man who I can only assume is Bertie's eldest son, the young Duke of Clarence (elder son of the future George V) and.. who? I am very puzzled about the identity of the boy. The Duke of Clarence died before he had any children, his brother George was 18 months years younger than the Duke of Clarence so the boy is clearly not George - and anyway it says four generations.
The boy can't be the future Edward VIII- as then his father George would be in the picture- and he isn't. So- who is he???

[Lumutqueen]

I think it is George V, Edward VII and the boy is Edward VIII.

[seriykotik1970]

Hello Lumutqueen!

I thought of that - but here is a photo taken of the future Edward VIII as a baby- his christening. You can see his father, and the young man in my scrap is clearly too young and not beardy enough to be him. :-)




The scrap seems to be from the 1880s?


There were lots of photos and souvenirs of "the four generations" produced in the 1890s and the all show a group with the young Edward VIII- like the above photo. Except for my souvenir scrap.

[Lumutqueen]

Then it may be Albert Victor and the boy is still Edward VIII.

[Artemisia]

I don't know if it's him, but the young man resembles the Duke of Albany a lot.

[seriykotik1970]

Ah, but if it's Albert Victor, it would have to be him as a very young man, a teenager from the early 1880s. He died in 1892 (and had a dashing pointy moustache as an adult) . Edward VIII was born in 1894, so I don't think it can be him...

[MarkUK]

It is a very curious item. The young man does look more like the Prince Albert Victor, Duke of Clarence than his younger brother Prince George, who wore a beard from his time in the navy in the 1880s. But it can only be Prince George for the reasons you gave in your first post. Assuming the boy is the future King Edward VIII, and he must be to apply the title "Four Generations", it was produced around the late 1890s years after Albert Victor had died. It's almost as if whoever made it used the wrong image for Prince George.

[seriykotik1970]

Originally Posted by MarkUK

It is a very curious item. The young man does look more like the Prince Albert Victor, Duke of Clarence than his younger brother Prince George, who wore a beard from his time in the navy in the 1880s. But it can only be Prince George for the reasons you gave in your first post. Assuming the boy is the future King Edward VIII, and he must be to apply the title "Four Generations", it was produced around the late 1890s years after Albert Victor had died. It's almost as if whoever made it used the wrong image for Prince George.

I'm inclined to agree. The young man really should be the future George V- but he clearly isn't. I think the future Edward VIII was Victoria's first Great-Grandson?

[Lumutqueen]

Originally Posted by seriykotik1970

I'm inclined to agree. The young man really should be the future George V- but he clearly isn't. I think the future Edward VIII was Victoria's first Great-Grandson?

Think that was Prince Waldemar of Prussia, grandson to Victoria, The Princess Royal. He was born 1889 when Edward was born 1894.

[Artemisia]

Queen Victoria's first great-grandchild was Princess Feodora of Saxe-Meiningen (daughter of Princess Charlotte, daughter of the Princess Royal) born in 1879.
Victoria's first great-grandson was Crown Prince Wilhelm of Prussia (son of Wilhelm II, himself son of the Princess Royal): he was born in 1882.

[Lee-Z]

Originally Posted by MarkUK

It's almost as if whoever made it used the wrong image for Prince George.

IMO it's not a very good picture at all, the figures are sort of 'awkward' and seem like something people nowadays would do with photoshop; stick together a couple of separate images to make one new image.. more directed at sentimental value than historic accuracy, so they may well have used the wrong images :-)

[seriykotik1970]

Originally Posted by Artemisia

Queen Victoria's first great-grandchild was Princess Feodora of Saxe-Meiningen (daughter of Princess Charlotte, daughter of the Princess Royal) born in 1879.
Victoria's first great-grandson was Crown Prince Wilhelm of Prussia (son of Wilhelm II, himself son of the Princess Royal): he was born in 1882.

Yes, I think you may be right- it could be him. That would make this a Golden Jubilee souvenir- 1887

Here he is in 1887:


It could be him- the first Great grandson, and the young man a youthful Albert Victor. That seems like the most likely suggestion so far.

[Lee-Z]

Originally Posted by Artemisia

Queen Victoria's first great-grandchild was Princess Feodora of Saxe-Meiningen (daughter of Princess Charlotte, daughter of the Princess Royal) born in 1879.

i love these family pictures :-) might this 4 generations picture http://www.mccord-museum.qc.ca/ObjView/II-80726.0.1.jpg be with the first granddaughter?

[Artemisia]

Originally Posted by Lee-Z

i love these family pictures :-) might this 4 generations picture http://www.mccord-museum.qc.ca/ObjView/II-80726.0.1.jpg be with the first granddaughter?

That's not Feodora, I'm afraid. The baby is Princess Alice - Prince Philip's mother.
Little Alice sits on the lap of her mother, Princess Victoria of Hesse and by Rhine (Princess Louis of Battenberg), the daughter of Princess Alice of Great Britain (Queen Victoria's third child). The elder Alice had died before her granddaughter was born, so the lady behind them is her sister, Princess Beatrice of Great Britain (Queen Victoria's youngest daughter). Here is a larger version of the great picture.

It's quite interesting how the link from Queen Victoria to Prince Philip is preserved in that one single picture of baby Alice and her great-grandmother.

Image copyright expired, courtesy of Royal Collection.

[Lee-Z]

another thought on seriykotik1970 's original post... do you think they intended the 4 generations to be: british royal family, oldest son, oldest grandson, oldest great-grand-son?

[Artemisia]

Originally Posted by Lee-Z

another thought on seriykotik1970 's original post... do you think they intended the 4 generations to be: british royal family, oldest son, oldest grandson, oldest great-grand-son?

Usually, such generation pictures depict direct descendants of each generation (like the famous pictures of Queen Victoria, George V, Edward VII and Edward VIII). However, sometimes another relative may make an appearance for whatever reason. For instance, in the picture of little Princess Alice, Princess Beatrice takes the place of her late sister. It is possible that the scrap posted by seriykotik1970 had a similar "guest".

It is also possible the little boy is Crown Prince Wilhelm of Prussia (the dating certainly matches): in that case, the boy was included to simply represent an "additional" generation as he was Queen Victoria's first great-grandson.

[Warren]

Originally Posted by seriykotik1970

...The boy can't be the future Edward VIII- as then his father George would be in the picture- and he isn't. So- who is he???

It's nothing more than a particularly poor representation of the Royal Family. No-one looks remotely like they actually did and Queen Victoria is recognisable more because we know who it is and the context, and by her familiar seated position and widow's cap

Here are two depictions of the same scene plus one from a few years earlier
There is no copyright involved with these images.
◘ The first [1897] is another artist's impression; The PoW and VRI are passable, but George bears little resemblance to reality and the representation of David is simply diabolical.

◘ The second [1894] is a photo of sorts but even making allowance for the scratchiness, George looks slightly odd. And that's overlooking the set of faint angular devil's horns he appears to have acquired. The Queen may have moved her head slightly during the long exposure so her face is not quite as sharp.

◘ The third [1897] is a more true to life photo and probably as close as we get to the real deal.
An observation in passing: in this photograph George looks better tailored and more dapper than his father. Who would have thought?
.

[Meraude]

Is it certain that the older man in the picture is Edvard VII, queen Victoria had three other sons and there are a lot of similarities in looks between Edward and Alfred. The younger man looks like he is blond, and Alfred's son Alfred (young Affie) seems to have been blond. If it was those two in the picture, the boy could then be prince Carol of Romania, his mother Marie being the daughter of the older Alfred and sister of the younger one.

[Grandduchess24]

The first is it Victoria and the next kings? Edward VII, George V and possibly the future duke of Windsor .