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  #141  
Old 10-03-2011, 05:57 PM
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If you have any interest in finding living relatives, genforum.genealogy.com and ancestry.com have forums where you can ask for information or give information to other people. I've heard this way from distant relatives who have been able to "fill in the blanks" for me.
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  #142  
Old 10-22-2011, 05:42 PM
Aristocracy
 
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Location: Makati, Philippines
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kataryn View Post
Three of the oldest Royal Houses of Europe are the Welfs (Guelphs), Wittelsbachs and Oldenburgs. They all were souverain reigning Houses before William the Conqueror came to Britain. George I. was the heir of the Guelfs and son of a Wittelsbach-princess of the Palatinate (the oldest electoral House in Germany). From him in direct Royal line is Elizabeth II. descended - her only non-Royal blood came from her mother's side who had the same rank as Lady Diana Spencer, so according to your theory the Queen Mother had a lot of Royal blood as well even though she was only a lady from the nobility.

Queen Elizabeth's husband and father of her children is a male-line prince from the House of Oldenburg (rulers of Denmark & Greece branch). His only slightly non-Royal blood (but princely) comes from his mother's side whose father had been a male-line prince from a princely side-branch of another ancient Souverain House of Germany (Granddukes of Hesse) while her mother was a direct descendant of the main and reigning branch, daughter of the reigning Grandduke and his wife, British princess Alice, a daughter of queen Victoria.

So when I count the Royals in Prince Charles' lineage, I find that only a grandmother and a great-great grandmother were not Royal, but both daughters of an Earl and Count respectively. And all Royals came from the right side of the blankett and of equal marriages.

Now please explain to me how Lady Diana Spencer could have had more Royal blood than her husband?
that is probably because Lady Diana is a direct descendant of most of the Sovereign Houses of Europe though most know that it is through a illegitimate line.. Lady is a direct descendant of the House of Normandy (from William the Conqueror), House of Plantagenet (from Mathilde, Holy Roman Empress), House of Tudor (from Mary Tudor), House of Stuart (from James IV and I of Scotland and England), House of House of Wittelsbach (from Frederick V, Elector Palatine and King of Bohemia), House of Oldenburg (from Christian III of Denmark), House of Bourbon (from Henrietta Maria of France), House of Hanover (from Ernest Augustus, Elector of Brunswick-Lüneburg), House of Hesse (from Elizabeth of Hesse), House of Nassau (from William I, Prince of Orange), House of Mecklenburg (from Anna of Mecklenburg-Schwerin), House of Wettin (from Christine of Saxony, Landgravine of Hesse), House of Valois (from Jeanne d'Angoulême, Countess of Bar-sur-Seine), House of Medici (from Cosimo I de' Medici, Grand Duke of Tuscany), House of Sforza (from Francesco I Sforza, Duke of Milan) and a distant relative of the House of FitzJames (Dukes of Berwick) and House of Toledo (Dukes of Medina Sidonia and the original Dukes of Alba) and so one and so forth..

most people tend to connect Diana's royal bloodline through the illegitimate line which she descends, but people must also know that Diana descended through a legitimate yet morganatic line of Frederick V, Elector Palatine and King of Bohemia who was also apparently the father of Sophia of Hanover, the direct ancestor of the current British Royal Family..

here is the line..

Frederick V, Elector Palatine and King of Bohemia (married Princess Elizabeth of Scotland and England, daughter of King James IV and I of Scotland and England) >>> Charles I Louis, Elector Palatine >>> Karoline von der Pfalz, Duchess of Schomberg >>> Lady Federica Schomberg >>> Lady Caroline D'arcy >>> Lady Louisa Kerr >>> Charles Lennox, 4th Duke of Richmond >>> Charles Gordon-Lennox, 5th Duke of Richmond >>> Lady Cecilia Catherine Gordon-Lennox, Countess of Lucan >>> Rosalind Bingham, Duchess of Abercorn >>> Cynthia Hamilton, Countess Spencer >>> John Spencer, 8th Earl Spencer >>> Lady Diana, Princess of Wales

through this legitimate yet morganatic line, Lady Diana is a legitimate descendant of the all the Royal Houses that Charles can muster in his maternal line (from the line of King George VI) and far more aristocratic ones compared to that of Lady Elizabeth Bowes-Lyons.. and unlike Prince Charles, Lady Diana can boast ancestry to the Kings of France, Grand Dukes of Tuscany, Dukes of Milan and even to the most powerful aristocratic family of the Dukes of Alba, leading all the way to the House of Capet of the Capetian Dynasty..

Prince Charles may have more royal ancestors from the more recent history, but Lady Diana though only came from a much humbler aristocratic background, can boast ancestry from also every single Royal House in Europe since time immemorial.. and thanks to his mother, Prince William can lay claim relation to this ancestors.. and most interestingly, through his mother, Prince William of Wales descends from Arsakes Vologaeses V Dikaios Epiphanes Philhellen, Sacral King of Parthia, of the Parthian Royal House of Arsaces who ruled Persia (Iran), Mesopotamia and Babylon.. the Parthian kings in turn claimed descent from the earlier Achaemenid Dynasty.. if true, that relationship would make Prince William a descendant of Cyrus the Great and establish a blood link with classical Greece..
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  #143  
Old 06-05-2012, 02:49 AM
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Personal genealogical enquiries have been moved to the Help With Family Histories thread in Members' Corner.
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  #144  
Old 10-08-2012, 05:09 AM
Aristocracy
 
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Location: Makati, Philippines
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mermaid1962 View Post
Prince Philip was born a Prince of Greece and Denmark, and Denmark has Europe's oldest monarchy. Therefore, Philip's original title was older than Diana's. I agree with you about Sir Winston Churchill. He was a great man.
yes.. Prince Philip himself was born a Prince of Greece and Denmark and is a member of the House of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg which itself in turn descends from the older House of Oldenburg..

Diana saying those words may have meant Philip's tittle of Duke of Edinburgh which was granted to him by King George VI on 1947 while Diana's status on a "Lady" stretches back on 1783..

STILL, going by Diana's words, tracing both their lineages, the lineage of the Spencer family is way older than that of the House of Oldenburg where Prince Philip patrilineally descends from..

you see, the founder of the House of Oldenburg was Elimar I, Count of Oldenburg.. he is the direct ancestor of Prince Philip hence as well as of Prince Charles, William and Harry.. I believe it is widely known that the Kingdom of Denmark is the oldest monarchy in Europe, leading all the way back to Gorm the Old, BUT the House of Oldenburg does not descend from Gorm the Old.. the first Danish king from the House of Oldenburg was Christian I of Denmark who was elected to the vacant Danish throne upon the death of King Christopher of Denmark, Sweden and Norway in January 1448..

here is Prince Philip's descent from Elimar I, Count of Oldenburg..
  • Elimar I 1101–1108
  • Elimar II 1108–1143
  • Christian I the Quarrelsome 1143–1168
  • Maurice I 1168–1211
  • Otto I 1209–1251
  • Christian II 1211–1251
  • John I 1244–1272
  • Christian III 1272–1278
  • Otto II, Count of Oldenburg-Delmenhorst 1272–1301
  • John II 1278–1305
  • Christian IV 1302–1323
  • John III 1305–1345
  • John IV 1331–1356
  • Conrad I 1345–1368
  • Conrad II 1368–1386
  • Maurice II 1386–1420
  • Christian V 1368–1398
  • Dietrich, Count of Oldenburg 1398-1440
  • Christian I of Denmark 1426-1481
  • Frederick I of Denmark 1471-1533
  • Christian III of Denmark 1503-1559
  • John II, Duke of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg 1545–1622
  • Alexander, Duke of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg 1573–1627
  • August Philipp, Duke of Schleswig-Holstein-Beck 1612-1675
  • Frederick Louis, Duke of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Beck 1653-1728
  • Peter August, Duke of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Beck 1697-1775
  • Karl Anton August, Prince of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Beck 1727-1759
  • Friedrich Karl Ludwig, Duke of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Beck 1757-1816
  • Friedrich Wilhelm, Duke of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg 1785-1831
  • Christian IX of Denmark 1818-1906
  • George I of Greece 1845-1913
  • Prince Andrew of Greece and Denmark 1882-1944
  • Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh 1921-Present
meanwhile, Lady Diana's lineage stretches far back than Prince Philip's.. you see the House of Oldenburg only stretches as far back as 1101 while Lady Diana's lineage can be traced back as far back as 920..

here is Lady Diana's descent from ancient Norman Nobility..
  • Raoul de Tancarville, 920-?, son of a "Tancrède de Norvège", who came to France with Duke Rollo
  • Gérard de Tancarville, ?-?
  • Gerard "Dapifer" de Tancarville, 1015-?
  • Amaury d'Abetot, Norman nobleman, tenants of the lords of Tancarville in Normandy, ca 1066
  • Robert Despenser, died after 1098, Royal Steward of King William II of England
  • Wlliam Despenser, of Elington, Lincolnshire, born ca 1090
  • Thurston le Despencer, born ca 1122
  • Hugh Despencer, of Rhyale, Rutland, 1152-1199
  • Thomas Despencer, of Elington, Lincolnshire, born 1169 (his fourth son was Hugh le Despenser I whose son Hugh was the ancestor of the medieval Despencer family).
  • Geoffrey le Despencer, of Defford, Worcestershire, 1185-1242
  • John le Despencer, 1235-1251
  • William Spencer, of Defford, Worcestershire, (fl.c.1330), he changed his surname from the original french Le Despenser to the english Spencer
  • John Spencer, of Defford, born 1310
  • Nicholas Spencer, of Defford, born ca 1340
  • Thomas Spencer, of Defford, born 1366
  • Henry Spencer, of Badby, Northamptonshire, 1392-1476
  • John Spencer, of Hodnell, 1420-?
  • William Spencer, of Rodburn, Warwickshire, ?-1485
  • Sir John Spencer, Kt. of Snitterfield & Althorp , 1447-1522
  • Sir William Spencer, Kt. of Wormleighton & Althorp, 1483-1532, married Susan, daughter of Sir Richard Knightley, of Fawsley, Northamptonshire
  • Sir John Spencer, Kt. of Wormleighton & Althorp, 1517-1586
  • Sir John Spencer, Kt. of Wormleighton & Althorp, 1550-1599 married Mary, daughter of Sir Robert Catlyn
  • Robert Spencer, 1st Baron Spencer of Wormleighton 1570-1627
  • William Spencer, 2nd Baron Spencer of Wormleighton 1591–1636
  • Henry Spencer, 1st Earl of Sunderland 1620–1643
  • Robert Spencer, 2nd Earl of Sunderland 1640–1702
  • Charles Spencer, 3rd Earl of Sunderland 1675–1722
  • The Honorable John Spencer 1708-1746
  • John Spencer, 1st Earl Spencer 1734-1783
  • George Spencer, 2nd Earl Spencer 1758-1834
  • Frederick Spencer, 4th Earl Spencer 1798-1857
  • Charles Spencer, 6th Earl Spencer 1857-1922
  • Albert Spencer, 7th Earl Spencer 1892-1975
  • John Spencer, 8th Earl Spencer 1924-1992
  • Lady Diana Spencer, Princess of Wales 1961-1997
i remember reading a book where it was stated that Diana always reminds William that his Spencer forefathers can be traced back for a thousand years..
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  #145  
Old 10-08-2012, 06:28 AM
Aristocracy
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemisia View Post

Not to mention, the Queen is a direct descendant of not only British, English and Scottish ones (those who left descendants, at any rate), but also of native Princes of Wales, High Kings of Ireland, and Anglo-Saxon Monarchs.

Diana came from illustrious family, but to say that it's older, more aristocratic or noble than the reigning royal family of the United Kingdom is simply not true.
yes, the Queen is all you say she is.. but so to speak, as is Diana.. the Queen's patrilineal ancestry makes her a member of the House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha which was changed by King George V to the House of Windsor in 1917.. the Queen's nearest English born ancestor, patrilineally, was Princess Elizabeth Stuart, daughter of King James I, who married Frederick V, Elector Palatine, and who's daughter was Sophia of Hanover.. the Queen's matrilineal ancestors were mostly Scottish kings and nobles, as well as Dutch ancestry from her descent from the Dutch House of Bentick.. King George V has himself referred to before as "more German than the Kaiser" seeing how his nearest ancestors were all of German origins (Ansbach, Mecklenburg, Brunswick, Saxe-Coburg and Gotha), as well as his consort Princess Mary of Teck, who is patrilineally a member of the German House of Teck..

Diana's ancestry connects her with most crown heads of Europe.. she is a direct descendant of the French kings through her descent from King Henry IV of France as well as of the powerful Italian House of Medici.. through Henry IV, Diana can further trance her ancestry to the early Capetian kings all the way back to the Merovingian kings.. Diana is also related to almost every French noble houses.. Diana also descended from ancient noble and royal Gaelic families of Ireland from her mother's side. From her maternal great-great grandfather, Edmond Roche, 1st Baron Fermoy, Diana descends from both the O'Donovan family who ruled the Kingdom of Desmond until the 13th century and became semi-sovereign princes of Carbery from the line of Donal IV O'Donovan, Lord of Clancahill, the De Barry family, an ancient family of Cambro-Norman origins who descends from Rhiwallon ap Cynfyn, a Welsh prince and the O'Shaughnessy family, a family which descends from Guaire Aidne mac Colmáin, King of Connacht.. and most interesting enough is that Lady Diana is also a descendant of Arsakes Vologaeses V Dikaios Epiphanes Philhellen, Sacral King of Parthia, of the Parthian Royal House of Arsaces who ruled Persia (Iran), Mesopotamia and Babylon.. the Parthian kings in turn claimed descent from the earlier Achaemenid Dynasty.. if true, that relationship would make Lady Diana and her sons, Princes William and Harry, descendants of Cyrus the Great and establish a blood link with classical Greece..

the Queen, as i said earlier is from the House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, who itself descends from the House of Wettin.. the founder of the House of Wettin was Dietrich I, Count of Wettin who died on 976.. as such, the House of Wettin may have probably been found somewhere during the early 900 to 920.. Here is Queen Elizabeth's descent from Dietrich I, Count of Wettin..
  • Dietrich I, Count of Wettin, d. 976
  • Dedi II, Count in the Hessegau, 946 - 1009
  • Dietrich II, Margrave of Lower Lusatia, 991 - 1034
  • Thimo I, Count of Wettin, d. 1099
  • Conrad, Margrave of Meissen, 1098–1157
  • Otto II, Margrave of Meissen, 1125–1190
  • Dietrich I, Margrave of Meissen, 1162–1221
  • Henry III, Margrave of Meissen, c. 1215 - 1288
  • Albert II, Margrave of Meissen, 1240–1314
  • Frederick I, Margrave of Meissen, 1257–1323
  • Frederick II, Margrave of Meissen, 1310–1349
  • Frederick III, Landgrave of Thuringia, 1332–1381
  • Frederick I, Elector of Saxony, 1370–1428
  • Frederick II, Elector of Saxony, 1412–1464
  • Ernest, Elector of Saxony, 1441–1486
  • John, Elector of Saxony, 1468–1532
  • John Frederick I, Elector of Saxony, 1503–1554
  • Johann Wilhelm, Duke of Saxe-Weimar, 1530–1573
  • John II, Duke of Saxe-Weimar, 1570–1605
  • Ernest I, Duke of Saxe-Gotha, 1601–1675
  • John Ernest IV, Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Saalfeld, 1658–1729
  • Francis Josias, Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Saalfeld, 1697–1764
  • Ernest Frederick, Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Saalfeld, 1724–1800
  • Francis, Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Saalfeld, 1750–1806
  • Ernest I, Duke of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, 1784–1844
  • Albert, Prince Consort, 1819–1861
  • Edward VII of the United Kingdom, 1841–1910
  • George V of the United Kingdom, 1865–1936
  • George VI of the United Kingdom, 1895–1952
  • Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom, 1926 -
Diana's family ancestry meanwhile can be traced back as early as 920, as shown here..
  • Raoul de Tancarville, 920-?, son of a "Tancrède de Norvège", who came to France with Duke Rollo
  • Gérard de Tancarville, ?-?
  • Gerard "Dapifer" de Tancarville, 1015-?
  • Amaury d'Abetot, Norman nobleman, tenants of the lords of Tancarville in Normandy, ca 1066
  • Robert Despenser, died after 1098, Royal Steward of King William II of England
  • Wlliam Despenser, of Elington, Lincolnshire, born ca 1090
  • Thurston le Despencer, born ca 1122
  • Hugh Despencer, of Rhyale, Rutland, 1152-1199
  • Thomas Despencer, of Elington, Lincolnshire, born 1169 (his fourth son was Hugh le Despenser I whose son Hugh was the ancestor of the medieval Despencer family).
  • Geoffrey le Despencer, of Defford, Worcestershire, 1185-1242
  • John le Despencer, 1235-1251
  • William Spencer, of Defford, Worcestershire, (fl.c.1330), he changed his surname from the original french Le Despenser to the english Spencer
  • John Spencer, of Defford, born 1310
  • Nicholas Spencer, of Defford, born ca 1340
  • Thomas Spencer, of Defford, born 1366
  • Henry Spencer, of Badby, Northamptonshire, 1392-1476
  • John Spencer, of Hodnell, 1420-?
  • William Spencer, of Rodburn, Warwickshire, ?-1485
  • Sir John Spencer, Kt. of Snitterfield & Althorp , 1447-1522
  • Sir William Spencer, Kt. of Wormleighton & Althorp, 1483-1532, married Susan, daughter of Sir Richard Knightley, of Fawsley, Northamptonshire
  • Sir John Spencer, Kt. of Wormleighton & Althorp, 1517-1586
  • Sir John Spencer, Kt. of Wormleighton & Althorp, 1550-1599 married Mary, daughter of Sir Robert Catlyn
  • Robert Spencer, 1st Baron Spencer of Wormleighton 1570-1627
  • William Spencer, 2nd Baron Spencer of Wormleighton 1591–1636
  • Henry Spencer, 1st Earl of Sunderland 1620–1643
  • Robert Spencer, 2nd Earl of Sunderland 1640–1702
  • Charles Spencer, 3rd Earl of Sunderland 1675–1722
  • The Honorable John Spencer 1708-1746
  • John Spencer, 1st Earl Spencer 1734-1783
  • George Spencer, 2nd Earl Spencer 1758-1834
  • Frederick Spencer, 4th Earl Spencer 1798-1857
  • Charles Spencer, 6th Earl Spencer 1857-1922
  • Albert Spencer, 7th Earl Spencer 1892-1975
  • John Spencer, 8th Earl Spencer 1924-1992
  • Lady Diana Spencer, Princess of Wales 1961-1997
the House of Wettin is probably as old as the Spencer family itself.. as for the Spencer family being more aristocratic, it all goes down to one's opinion i think.. seeing how the Queen descends primarily from German royals with a hint of Danish, Scottish and Dutch, while Diana's ancestry is primarily English, descending from most if not all of "true" British kings and nobles as well as of French, Italian, Spanish and even some German royal/noble blood flowing in her veins..

to say the least, Diana lacks the German royal connection the Queen has which makes her related to most royal houses (Wettin, Hanover, Hohenzollern, Oldenburg, Mecklenburg, Ascania, Zahringen, Saxe-Coburg, Saxe-Meiningen, Saxe-Weimar, Saxe-Altenburg, etc.) on the other hand, Diana and the Spencer family has blood connection with most of French and Italian, and other Catholic royal houses which the Queen lacks (Merovingian, Capetian, Bourbon, Medici, Sforza, Habsburg, Wittelsbach, Savoy, Orsini, Burgundy (Castile), Alba, etc.).. this is because, after the Glorious Revolution, no British monarch had married into any Catholic Royal family, confining their descent to German royal houses..
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  #146  
Old 10-19-2012, 04:59 AM
Aristocracy
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kataryn View Post
It's not that easy. Karoline of the Palatinate, in case she was recognised in the UK as legitimate, would have been higher up the line of sucession than her aunt Electress Sophie, because her father was Sophie's elder brother. As she had a son at the time of the decision on the Hanoveran succession and was married to a then British duke, I guess she was not deemed legitimate enough to inherit her grandmother Elizabeth Stuart's right to the British thrones. While her aunt Sophia was.
one great reason why Karoline was not chosen and was passed over for Sophia is because, Karoline was long dead by that time.. also, their marriage was done in Europe where the practice of morganatic marriage is strictly followed.. this would make their children legitimate, but does not possess any dynastic right to their father's claim.. i believe that the reason why Electress Sophia of Hanover was chosen because she's the senior most protestant relative of King James I.. but your are right, that Electress Sophia was not the senior most cognatic descendant of King James I to be protestant.. i believe it was Frederica Mildmay, Countess of Mértola, granddaughter of Charles I Louis of the Palatinate via her daughter Karoline of the Palatinate..

Electress Sophia being chosen as the heir is the best thing they can thing off.. despite of legitimate birth, Federica would be considered to low in rank to succeed Queen Anne.. plus, powerful countries such as the France, Spain, Modena and the Papal States still contest that James Francis Edward Stuart is the legitimate king.. declaring a mere countess of morganatic birth and who possessed no territorial power despite being of legitimate birth would weaken the claim for a new monarch.. Opposing countries would have a field day if parliament would chose Feredica as queen.. also, 56 people who had more legitimate hereditary claims were bypassed in favor of Sophia..

Because of the Act of Settlement, ensuring the Protestant Succession, on the death of Queen Anne on 12 Aug 1714, she was succeeded by the Elector of Hanover. This succession bypassed more than fifty people then living who had better claims to the throne according to primogeniture. The following chart will show those people, and only those who are relevant to this issue are included. Those living at Queen Anne's death are in capital letters:

King James I & VI of England and Scotland (156601625) and his wife Anne of Denmark (1574-1619) had the following relevant issue:
1. King Charles I of England and Scotland (1600-1649); m.Henriette Marie of France (1609-1669)
1.1. King Charles II of England & Scotland (1630-1685); m. Caterina of Braganza (1638-1705)
1.2. King James II & VII of England & Scotland, deposed 1688/9 by William & Mary; (1633-1701); m.1st Anne Hyde (1637-1671); m.2nd Maria Beatrice d'Este of Modena (1658-1718)
1.2.1. JAMES EDWARD Stuart, "The Old Pretender" (1688-1766); m.1719 Clementina Sobieska (1702-1735)
1.2.2. Queen Mary II of England and Scotland (1662-1695); reigned 1689-95; m.King William III (below)
1.2.3.Queen Anne of Great Britain (1665-1714); m.Pr George of Denmark
(1653-1708)
1.3. Mary (1631-1660); m.Pr Willem II of Orange-Nassau, Stattholder of the Netherlands (1625-1650)
1.3.1. King William III of England and Scotland, etc (1650-1702); reigned
1689-1702; m.Queen Mary II (above)
1.4. Henrietta (1644-1670); m.1661 Philippe, Duc d'Orleans (1640-1701)
1.4.1. ANNE d'ORLEANS (1669-1728); m.1684 King Vittorio Amedeo II of Sardinia (1666-1732)
1.4.1.1. VITTORIO AMEDEO OF SAVOY, Prince of Piedmont (1699-1715)
1.4.1.2. King CARLO EMANUELE III OF SARDINIA (1701-1773)
1.4.1.3. Marie Adelaide of Savoy (1685-1712); m.Louis, Dauphin of France
(1682-1712)
1.4.2.1. LOUIS, DAUPHIN OF FRANCE [later, King Louis XV] (1710-1774)
1.4.3. Maria Luisa of Savoy (1688-14 Feb 1714); m.King Felipe V of Spain
(1683-1746)
1.4.3.1. LUIS, INFANTE OF SPAIN [later, King Luis I] (1707-1724)
1.4.3.2. INFANTE FELIPE OF SPAIN (1712-1719)
1.4.3.3. INFANTE FERNANDO OF SPAIN [later, King Fernando VI] (1713-1759)
2. Elizabeth (1596-1662); m.Friedrich V, Elector Palatine, King of Bohemia
1619-21 (1596-1632)
2.1. Karl I Ludwig, Elector Palatine (1617-1680); m.1st 1650 (div 1657)
Landgravine Charlotte of Hesse-Cassel (1627-1686); m.2nd 1658 Baroness Marie Luise von Degenfeld
(1634-1677)
2.1.1. LISABETH CHARLOTTE (1652-1721); m.Philippe, Duc d'Orleans (1640-1701)
2.1.1.1. PHILIPPE II, DUC d'ORLEANS (1674-1723); m.Francoise Marie of France (1677-1749)
2.1.1.1.1. LOUIS [later, Duc] d'ORLEANS (1703-1752)
2.1.1.1.2. LOUISE d'ORLEANS (1695-1719); m.Charles, Duc de Berry (1686-1714)
2.1.1.1.3. MARIE ADELAIDE d'ORLEANS (1698-1743)
2.1.1.1.4. CHARLOTTE d'ORLEANS (1700-1761); m.1720 Francesco III d'Este, Duke of Modena (1698-1780; below)
2.1.1.1.5. ELIZABETH d'ORLEANS (1709-1742); m.1723 King Luis I of Spain
2.1.1.2. ELIZABETH d'ORLEANS (1676-1744); m.1698 Duke Leopold of Lorraine (1679-1729)
2.1.1.2.1. LEOPOLD OF LORRAINE (1707-1723)
2.1.1.2.2. FRANCIS STEPHEN OF LORRAINE (1708-1765); as of 1745 he was the EMPEROR FRANZ; m.1736 Archduchess Maria Theresia of Austria (1717-1780)
2.1.1.2.3. CHARLES OF LORRAINE (1712-1780)
2.1.1.2.4. ELIZABETH THERESE OF LORRAINE (1711-1741); m.1737 King Carlo Emanuele III of Sardinia (1701-1773)
2.1.1.2.5. ANNE CHARLOTTE OF LORRAINE (17 May 1714-1773)
2.1.2. Karoline, Raugraefin (1659-1696); m.1683 Meinhard von Schomberg, Duke of Leinster (1641-1719)
2.1.2.1. Lady Mary Schomberg ( - ); m.CtDegenfeld; she was probably alive at Anne's death, and may have had living kids, but I have no further details
2.1.2.2. LADY FREDERICA SCHOMBERG (d.1751); m.1st Robert D'Arcy, Earl of Holdernesse (d.1722); m.2d 1724 Benjamin Mildmay, Earl Fitzwalter (d.1756)
2.2. Eduard, Ct Palatine von Simmern (1625-1663); m.1645 Anna Gonzaga
(1616-1684)
2.2.1. Luise Marie, Css Palatine von Simmern (1647-1679); m.1671 Fst Karl
Theodor zu Salm (1645-1710)
2.2.1.1. PRINCE LUDWIG OTTO ZU SALM (1674-1738); m.1700 Pss Albertine Johannette of
Nassau-Hadamar (1679-1716)
2.2.1.1.1. PRINCESS DOROTHEA FRANZISKA AGNES ZU SALM (1702-1751); m.1719 Prince Nikolaus Leopold zu Salm-Salm (d.1770)
2.2.1.1.2.Pss ELISABETH ALEXANDRINE CHARLOTTE ZU SALM (1704-1739); m.1721 Pr Claude Lamoral de Ligne (d.1766)
2.2.1.1.3. Pss CHRISTINE ANNA LUISE OSWALDINE ZU SALM (1707-1777); m.1st 1726 Pr Joseph of Hesse-Rheinfels-Rotenburg (d.1744); m.2d 1753 Fst Nikolaus Leopold zu Salm-Salm (d.1770)
2.2.1.2. Pss ELEONORE CHRISTINA ZU SALM (1678-1737); M.1713 Conrad, Duc d'Ursel (d.1738); they may have had a kid before Anne's death, but I don't know for sure
2.2.2. ANNE, Css PALATINE VON SIMMERN (1648-1723); m.1663 Henri Julius, Pr de Conde (1643-1709)
2.2.2.1. LOUIS III, DUC DE BOURBON, PRINCE DE CONDE (1668-1710); m.1685 Louise Francoise de Bourbon (1673-1743)
2.2.2.1.1. LOUIS IV HENRI, DUC DE BOURBON, PRINCE DE CONDE (1692-1740); m.1713 Marie Anne de Conty (below)
2.2.2.1.2. CHARLES DE CONDE, PRINCE DE CHAROLAIS (1700-1760)
2.2.2.1.3. LOUIS DE CONDE, COMTE DE CLERMONT (1709-1771)
2.2.2.1.4. MARIE ANNE DE CONDE (1690-1760)
2.2.2.1.5. LOUISE ELIZABETH DE CONDE (1693-1775); m.1713 Louis Armand II, Pr de Conty (d.1727; below)
2.2.2.1.6. LOUISE ANNE DE CONDE (1695-1758)
2.2.2.1.7. MARIE ANNE DE CONDE (1697-1741); m.ca 1719 Louis de Melun, Duc de Joyeuse (d.1724)
2.2.2.1.8. HENRIETTE LOUISE DE CONDE (1703-1772)
2.2.2.1.9. ELIZABETH ALEXANDRINE DE CONDE (1705-1765)
2.2.2.2. MARIE THERESE DE CONDE (1666-1732); m.1688 Francois Louis, Pr de Conty (d.1709)
2.2.2.2.1. LOUIS ARMAND II, PR DE CONTY (1695-1727); m.1713 Louise Elizabeth de Conde (above)
2.2.2.2.2.MARIE ANNE DE CONTY (1689-1720); m.1713 Louis IV Henri, Pr de Conde (above)
2.2.2.2.3. LOUISE ADELAIDE DE CONTY (1696-1750)
2.2.2.3. ANNE LOUISE DE CONDE (1676-1753); m.1692 Louis Auguste de Bourbon, Duc de Maine (d.1736)
2.2.2.3.1. LOUIS II AUGUSTE, DUC d'AUMALE (1700-1755)
2.2.2.3.2. LOUIS CHARLES, PRINCE DE DOMBES (1701-1775)
2.2.2.3.3. LOUISE FRANCOISE, Mlle DU MAINE (1707-1743)
2.2.2.4. MARIE ANNE DE CONDE (1678-1718); m.1710 Louis Joseph de Bourbon, Duc de Vendome (d.1712)
2.2.3. BENEDIKTE HENRIETTE, Css PALATINE VON SIMEMRN (1652-1730); m.1668 Duke Johann Friedrich of Brunswick-Lueneburg (1625-1679)
2.2.3.1. Charlotte (1671-1710); m.1696 Rinaldo III d'Este, Duke of Modena
(1655-1737)
2.2.3.1.1. FRANCESCO III, DUKE OF MODENA (1698-1780); m.1720 Charlotte d'Orleans (above)
2.2.3.1.2. GIOVANNI FEDERIGO d'ESTE (1700-1727)
2.2.3.1.3. BENEDETTA d'ESTE (1697-1777)
2.2.3.1.4. AMALIA d'ESTE (1699-1778)
2.2.3.1.5. HENRIETTA d'ESTE (1702-1777); m.1st 1728 Antonio Farnese (d.1731); m.2d 1740 Ldgve Leopold of Hesse-Darmstadt (d.1764)
2.2.3.2. HENRIETTE OF BRUNSWICK-LUENEBURG (1672-1737)
2.2.3.3. WILHELMINE AMALIE OF BRUINSWICK-LUENEBURG (1673-1742); m.1699 Emperor Josef I (d.1711)
2.2.3.3.1.Archduchess MARIA JOSEFA OF AUSTRIA (1699-1757); m.1719 Elector Friedrich August II of Saxony, King of Poland (1696-1763)
2.2.3.3.2.Archduchess MARIA AMALIA OF AUSTRIA (1701-1756); m.1722 Elector Karl Albert of Bavaria, who became Emperor Karl VII (1697-1745)
2.3.Sophie of the Palatinate (1630-18 Jun 1714); m.1658 Elector Ernst August of Hanover (1629-1698)
2.3.1.ELECTOR GEORGE OF HANOVER -- became KING GEORGE I OF THE UNITED KINGDOM

we are talking about playing a game of thrones.. not all legitimate descendants are able to take their hereditary rights.. Wilhelm Karl, Duke of Urach was the legitimate heir to the throne of Monaco, but was passed over for his illegitimate niece Charlotte.. Alfonso de la Cerda, ancestor of the Dukes of Medinaceli is the legitimate heir to the throne of Castile, but was usurped by his uncle Sancho IV.. saying that her being of illegitimate line is the reason why she was debarred from the line of succession would be too absurd seeing there are other criteria to consider and Sophia fits the job perfectly..
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  #147  
Old 10-19-2012, 05:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Sangre_Real016 View Post
This succession bypassed more than fifty people then living who had better claims to the throne according to primogeniture. The following chart will show those people, and only those who are relevant to this issue are included.
The point is that all these people were Catholics. And the Catholic claim lay with the Stuart pretenders. No other Catholic had a better claim than the Stuarts.
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  #148  
Old 10-19-2012, 05:31 AM
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The point is that all these people were Catholics. And the Catholic claim lay with the Stuart pretenders. No other Catholic had a better claim than the Stuarts.
true enough.. but there is no other descendants from morganatic marriage too.. Catholics were debarred from the line of succession.. children of morganatic marriages does not inherit dynastic rights.. the Stuarts are out of the picture.. catholic relatives are also removed from the line of succession.. there is one close protestant relative but with obscure origins since she is a product of an unequal marriage.. so all bets goes to the nearest Protestant relative with unquestionable royal pedigree.. plus the fact that Sophia is a crowned ruler add more in the criteria.. given all the facts, Sophia is the best candidate.. but does that prove Karoline's illegitimacy? the answer is no..
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  #149  
Old 11-22-2012, 05:18 PM
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Questions about Princess Anne's title of Princess Royal have been moved to the British Styles & Titles thread in the British Forums.
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  #150  
Old 01-26-2013, 10:22 AM
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and unlike Prince Charles, Lady Diana can boast ancestry to the Kings of France, Grand Dukes of Tuscany, Dukes of Milan and even to the most powerful aristocratic family of the Dukes of Alba, leading all the way to the House of Capet of the Capetian Dynasty..

Prince Charles may have more royal ancestors from the more recent history, but Lady Diana though only came from a much humbler aristocratic background, can boast ancestry from also every single Royal House in Europe since time immemorial.. ..
This is all well said, but I don't believe that Charles does not have similar ancestry and having such Royal ancestry does not make you a Royal.

The closest link in my family tree to the nobility are two noble great-great-grandmothers, who due to the French revolution and two lost World Wars first married into the wealthy bourgeoise out of France who lconsequently ost their money bit by bit till we are now well-educated but very normal people. While the Heads of these families today still own their chateaux and estate. Lucky cousins!

Their families had thrived on good marriages, while the basic familes were not that noble (Barons and Counts), they served their kings and overlords (like the Guise-family) and were rewarded with heiresses of exceptionally good bloodlines. Thus I can trace my line through several daughters and sons of Charlesmagne, William the Conqueror, Alfred the Great of Wessex, the first Habsburg and Hohenzollern Counts, the Zaehringen, the great dukes of Saxony, to the Billungs of the North, numerous German emperors from Otto The Great, Frederick Barbarossa or the Luxembourg emperors Bohemian lines... Lorraine, Bar, Hainault, Champagne, Bourgogne, Bretagne, Acquitaine, Savoy of Piedmont, Tuscany - name it, a connection is there.
And I just started to look for it. So I don't wonder that Lady Diana Spencer probably had a much better access to these close-knit Royals up to the 16th century.

One thing I learned from my research was: it is just a matter of luck or fate who you are descended from, nothing to feel special about. It's what you make out of your life that counts. And Charles did a great job in creating him into today's "Prince of Wales". And anyone else has a chance to so in his own circumstances. A nice touch, though that you can get help from the Prince of Wales when living in the Uk. This is much more than what you get from the most noble Lord the Earl Spencer who shares Diana's noble ancestry but not Charles' nobility of spirit. IMHO, of course.
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Old 01-26-2013, 10:53 AM
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True, Diana's blood was bluest.
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  #152  
Old 01-26-2013, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Kataryn View Post
.

Now please explain to me how Lady Diana Spencer could have had more Royal blood than her husband?
I have read the numerous posts on Diana's ancestry and havent quite figured that one out myself. It all sounds like a rather liberal interpretation of "royal" in order to somehow boost Diana up and demeen her former husband which seems rather pointless since her former husband is a future King with a rather long traceable history throughout the royal families of Europe. The fact remains that the Windsors are the royal family and the Spencers are your basic garden variety English noble family.
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  #153  
Old 01-26-2013, 12:03 PM
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I don't see the reason why anyone will try to put Charles's ancestry down. Both Charles & Diana came from blue blooded families.
.
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  #154  
Old 01-26-2013, 12:09 PM
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I don't see the reason why anyone will try to put Charles's ancestry down. Both Charles & Diana came from blue blooded families.
Charles came from royal family, Diana came from noble family.
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  #155  
Old 01-26-2013, 12:17 PM
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Charles came from royal family, Diana came from noble family.
Right, but their families are still blue bloods.
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  #156  
Old 01-26-2013, 12:18 PM
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It all sounds like a rather liberal interpretation of "royal" in order to somehow boost Diana up and demeen her former husband which seems rather pointless since her former husband is a future King with a rather long traceable history throughout the royal families of Europe. The fact remains that the Windsors are the royal family and the Spencers are your basic garden variety English noble family.
It sometimes sounds as a consolation for not being born a royal or at least mediatized to be treated as equal...

The truth is that she descends further from various royal and prominent families,but it is also the truth that in 17th,18th and 19th century marriage concept her status of a daughter of an Earl would not be enough for any reigning or most mediatized families...
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  #157  
Old 02-26-2013, 01:37 PM
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Kate Middleton: New study reveals Duchess's links to earls, countesses and a former Prime Minister | Mail Online

The Duchess of Cambridge was the first commoner to marry the heir to the throne in 350 years and is descended from coal miners, a road sweeper and even a prisoner. But new research into her family has revealed that the middle class princess has noble blood after all. A previously unknown branch of the Middleton's family tree shows Kate can count earls, countesses and even a Prime Minister among her ancestors.

Pupils in Melbourne, Australia, stumbled across the link during a genealogy project set by their teacher. The children were asked to research either the family tree of the Duchess, David Beckham or rapper 50 Cent using an online programme.

It was soon discovered that the Duchess was related to William Petty FitzMaurice, the 1st Marquess of Lansdowne, whose ancestral seat Bowood House in Wiltshire is considered one of Britain's best stately homes. He served as Prime Minister between July 1782 and April 1783 during the reign of George III and is remembered for negotiating the peace settlement that ended the American War of Independence. Kate is the second cousin three times removed of Barbara Lupton, who became Lady Bullock when she married Sir Christopher Bullock. Sir Christopher, a descendent of William Petty FitzMaurice, worked as principal private secretary to Winston Churchill and later became permanent under-secretary at the British Air Ministry.

The Duchess's family line was traced back five generations to the Marquess of Lansdowne and his brother Thomas FitzMaurice who lived at the Buckinghamshire stately home Cliveden with his wife Mary, 4th Countess of Orkney in the late 18th century. The teacher contacted Edward, the surviving son of Sir Christopher and Lady Bullock who confirmed the connection. He also sent his findings to the Duchess, who thanked him for the research.

William Bortrick, the chairman of Burke's Peerage, said it will make an 'interesting inclusion' in the next edition of the guide, which will be published after the Duchess gives birth.

.
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  #158  
Old 04-01-2013, 04:45 PM
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Tracing Queen Elizabeth Ancestry Line back to the Tudors

I made a British Royal Family Tree Tracing Queen Elizabeth Ancestry Line back to the Tudors. Please Tell me what you think and if In made any mistakes, error, etc.

1. 14th Great Grandparent King Henry VII 1457-1509 Elizabeth of York 1466-1503

2. 13th Great Grandparents Margaret Tudor 1489-1541 Archibald Douglas, 6th Earl of Angus 1489-1557- Margaret Tudor Daughter of Henry VII and Elizabeth of York

3. 12th Great Grandparent Margaret Douglas 1515-1578 Matthew Stewart, 4th Earl of Lennox 1516-1571

4. 11th Great Grandparents Henry Stuart, Lord Darnley 1545-1567 Mary, Queen of Scots 1489-1541- Henry Stuart Son of Margaret Douglas and Matthew Stewart

5. 10th Great Grandparent King James I 1566-1625 Anne of Denmark 1574-1619- James I Son of Henry and Mary of Scots

6. 9th Great Grandparents Elizabeth Stuart 1596-1662 Frederick V, Elector Palatine 1596-1632- Elizabeth Daughter of James I and Anne of Denmark

7. 8th Great Grandparents Sophia of Hanover 1630-1714 Ernest Augustus 1629-1629- Sophia of Hanover Daughter of Frederick V, Elector and Elizabeth

8. 7th Great Grandparents King George I 1660-1727 Sophia Dorothea of Celle 1666-1726-King George I Son of Sophia of Hanover and Ernest Augustus

9. 6th Great Grandparents King George II 1683-1760 Caroline of Ansbach 1683-1737- George II Son of Gorge ! and Sophia

10. 5th Great Grandparents Frederick, Prince of Wales 1707-1751 Princess Augusta 1719-1772- Frederick Son of George II and Caroline

11. 4th Great Grandparents King George III 1738-1820 Charlotte of Mecklenburg-Strelitz 1744-1818- George III Son of Frederick and Augusta


12. 3rd Great Grandparents Prince Edward, Duke of Kent 1767-1820 Princess Victoria of Saxe-Coburg-Saalfeld 1786-1861- Prince Edward Son of George III And Charlotte

13. Great Great Grandparents Queen Victoria 1819-1901 Prince Albert 1819-1861- Victoria Daughter of Edward and Princess Victoria

14. Great Grandparents King Edward VII 1841-1910 Alexandra of Denmark 1844-1925- Edward VII Son of Victoria and Albert

15. Grandparents King George V 1865-1936 Queen Mary of Teck 1867-1953
-George V Son of Edward and Alexandra

16. Parents King George VI 1856-1952 Queen Elizabeth, The Queen Mother 1900-2002
-George VI Son of George and Mary

Queen Elizabeth II Born 1926 Prince Philip Born 1921
Daughter of King George VI and Elizabeth


Next Generations:
Prince Charles Born 1948 Princess Diana 1961-1997 married 1981-1996
Son of Queen Elizabeth II and Prince Philip

Prince Williams Born 1982, Married Kate Middleton Born 1982. Son of Prince Charles and Princess Diana
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Old 04-01-2013, 04:53 PM
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Hey someone tell me..does Queen EII have the bloodline of William The Conqueror? Or from where was it interrupted? Who was the earliest English monarch she could be traced directly to? I know the line wasnt straight..(nephews, cousins, distant relatives etc..)..But still..could her ancestry be traced to William I? Or just to Henry VII?
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Old 04-01-2013, 04:57 PM
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Hey someone tell me..does Queen EII have the bloodline of William The Conqueror? Or where was it interrupted? Who was the earliest English monarch she could be traced directly to? I know the line wasnt straight..(nephews, cousins, distant relatives etc..)..But still..could her ancestry be traced to William I?
of course
Ancestors of Queen Elizabeth II at RoyaList
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