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  #121  
Old 12-16-2010, 09:48 PM
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Originally Posted by AnnEliza View Post
Yes, evidently there are many many European and American (of European descent) who are descended from Edward III through John of Gaunt, who lived through the plague in the 14th century. I was able to trace my line to him, because my grandmother traced her lineage for the DAR, and there was a book published of one of her ancestors, tracing him back to England, etc.
Not just John of Gaunt....you also have descendants through Lionel of Antwerp and Edmund as well. I have a number of lines going to both Lionel and John.

Actually, the present Queen, by all rights, shouldn't be where she is...she is descended via several illegitimate offspring and quite a bit of skullduggery and/or downright usurpation. It all boiled down to who had parliament's backing and how much money they paid the pollies off with.

Plus, it's not just Europeans and Americans with descent from these people, either...despite the seemingly parochial focus on just Europe and America (mostly the US), there's just as many people of European and UK descent living outside of these two places as there are living in them, who can (if they manage to find the genealogical proof) claim descent from them. What about Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Argentina, Brazil, Singapore, India, Malaysia, South Africa, Chile etc. Plenty of people of both European and UK descent in all those countries.
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  #122  
Old 12-17-2010, 01:59 PM
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Yes, I am aware of that, and meant to indicate all people of European descent.
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  #123  
Old 01-26-2011, 06:59 PM
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The descendants of Georgiana,the Duchess of Devonshire

I 've read in Wikipedia that Princess Diana and Sarah Ferguson are direct descendants of Lady Georgiana via her illegitimate daughter from Lord Grey.I've never heard about Sarah's connections with this family.Is Diana direct descendant of her?
Who are Lady Georgiana's present day descendants?
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  #124  
Old 01-31-2011, 11:48 PM
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Yes,it's true...Almost half of aristocratic Britain today are descendants of Georgiana...

Sarah Margaret Ferguson had noble ancestors through her father and through her mother's side of the family...

Her father is a great-grandson of William,Duke of Buccheleuch and Queensberry(family of Alice,Duchess of Gloucester),descendant of Dukes of Abercorn,Dukes of Bedford...as well as descendant of King Charles II through his illegitimate son with Duchess de Kerouaille...

Her mother on the other hand is also a descendant of the Charles William,Duke of Buchleuch amd Queensberry which makes her related to her husband,Sarah's father and of course,with Dukes of Gloucester...
Her mother is also a descendant of the famous Duke of Marlborough,Dukes of Argyll,Dukes of Montagu and so on...
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  #125  
Old 03-22-2011, 11:53 AM
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Weren't prince Charles of wales and princess Diana cousins in some way ?

And weren't princess Diana cousins with the ex duchess of York, Sarah ferguson through lady Georgiana Spencer,duchess of Devonshire?
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  #126  
Old 03-22-2011, 12:26 PM
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Yes, they were. Check out the 'royal cousins' thread. To keep it short, Diana was a legitimate descendant through Georgiana's only son, while Sarah is an illegitimate descendant through Georgiana's daughter, Eliza - the result of Georgiana's affair with Charles Grey.
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  #127  
Old 03-23-2011, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Grandduchess24 View Post
Weren't prince Charles of wales and princess Diana cousins in some way ?
Yes,they are 7th cousins once removed as they both descended from William,Duke of Devonshire(died in 1775)...

They are also both descendants of King James I from the Stuart dynasty...
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  #128  
Old 03-23-2011, 09:29 AM
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It is also interesting that Charles and Camilla are 9th cousins once removed as they are both descendants of Henry Cavendish,Duke of Newcastle(1630-1691),while Camilla is 7th cousin to Diana,as they are both descendants of Charles Lennox,Duke of Richmomd(1672-1723),who in turn was son of King Chalres II and Frnech noblewoman Louise de Kérouaille,Duchess of Portsmuth(1649-1734).

This makes Camilla more closely related to her stepson William than to her husband ;-)

It is also interesting that Louise's sister Henriette Mauricette de Penancoët de Kérouaille is an ancestor of Counts of Bourbon-Busset whose descendant Madeleine married Bourbon-Parma(grnadmother of the Present Duke).Henriette is also ancestress of Philip Herbert,7th Earl of Pembroke...

The other interesting fact is that Louise and Henriette's aunt Renée Mauricette de Ploeuc de Timeur is a great-grandmother of Marquis de Sade...

This makes Diana and Camilla also related to Carlos,present Duke of Bourbon-Parma and Marquis de Sade...
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  #129  
Old 04-03-2011, 05:15 AM
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UK vs France for geneology links

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Originally Posted by Marc23 View Post
This makes Camilla more closely related to her stepson William than to her husband ;-)
While Great Britain did not reach 5 million population until early 17th century, France was already at 5 million early B.C.E. .
Given the fact that UK and France are now comparable in size, and the spread of people of British descent, it should not be shocking that so many people should have a common ancestor born in the last 500 years. Among the people with pedigrees, it is pretty common (like Camilla and William) to have one born in the 18th century.
-----------
If there was any way to prove it, it would be a statistically rare find, to meet someone who is English who was NOT descended from a medieval monarch (William I TO Richard III). Scientists believe that there descendants now number in the hundreds of millions.
====
A random American, like Barack Obama is 17th cousins to Prince Charles.
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  #130  
Old 04-17-2011, 01:26 PM
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Balian Ibelin (1143-1193),seigneur d'Ibelin was portrayed by Orlando Bloom in the somewhat fictional Kingdom of Heaven. He is the ancestor of Queen Elizabeth II by at least 2,550 different bloodlines ranging from 23 to 32 generations.

It is a fascinating connection taking the royal family to the Kingdom of Jerusalem, the Crusades, the Knights Templar. From marriages into the family, the Queen's descent from Armenian Kingdoms, Moslem Kingdoms near present day Tehran, and on back to Emperor Su Tsung (T'ang) of the 8th century (roughly 41 generations).

At the end of 1186, Saladin, the Sultan of Egypt and Damascus fought in the Battle of Hattin which largely destroyed the Kingdom of Jerusalem, and was responsible for the start of the 3rd or King's Crusade that takes Richard the Lionheart away from England for most of his reign.

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  #131  
Old 04-27-2011, 10:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mermaid1962 View Post
I remember her saying that her title--as a daughter of Earl Spencer--was older than Philip's, who was made Duke of Edinburgh on his wedding day. I can't see how the Windsors could possibly have less Royal blood than the Windsors, given that non-royals didn't marry into the Royal Family until George V gave the o.k. for his children to marry British aristocrats. Whereas the Spencer's Royal connections go back to mistresses of the Stuarts.
I remember one commentary that alluded to something along those lines when analyzing Earl Spencer's eulogy at Diana's funeral. It wasn't that the Spencers were more royal than the Windsors; it was that they were more British. The commentator pointed out that the tone of the Earl's speech seemed to suggests that the Windsor were German intruders on the British throne (even though the Queen Mum was very British). His use of the term "your [William and Harry's] blood family" was a like big jab at the Windsors: "Not only did Diana have the British people's hearts but we Spencers have British ancestry that you Windsors lack."
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  #132  
Old 04-27-2011, 10:13 AM
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I remember her saying that her title--as a daughter of Earl Spencer--was older than Philip's, who was made Duke of Edinburgh on his wedding day. I can't see how the Windsors could possibly have less Royal blood than the Windsors, given that non-royals didn't marry into the Royal Family until George V gave the o.k. for his children to marry British aristocrats. Whereas the Spencer's Royal connections go back to mistresses of the Stuarts.
Philip (if all this is infact true) referred to the title which was acquired by marriage. In this, Diana was quite right in what she said.

Her title was older than Philip's being she was bound by birth to be styled as The Honourable and to become The Lady Diana in due course, which she did upon her fathers accession in 1975. Philip's title was created, not inherited as we know.

That he was born a Prince is of no consequence as he became a naturalised British subject and renounced his royal titles, previously held.

In any case I'm sure that retort, which was quite fabulous imo, left a rosey mark on the Dukes pride. She certainly put him back in his place if he did infact make that threat, and good for her!

But that's just my opinion


Added: EmpressRouge further elaborates on the subject rather well in the above post.
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  #133  
Old 04-29-2011, 12:46 PM
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The Spencers are direct descendants of all Kings and Queens of England and Scotland who have left descendants (maily the Tudors and the Stuarts, and also France Kings, the Habsburgs and others), (not including, of course, the Windsors "German Kings and Queens"). The Spencers girls were no doubt the most beautiful guests (Lady Kitty Spencer):
http://img.thesun.co.uk/multimedia/a...s_1301485a.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-QExVtJxsxB...pencer-31a.jpg
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  #134  
Old 05-08-2011, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by pacomartin View Post
While Great Britain did not reach 5 million population until early 17th century, France was already at 5 million early B.C.E. .
Given the fact that UK and France are now comparable in size, and the spread of people of British descent, it should not be shocking that so many people should have a common ancestor born in the last 500 years. Among the people with pedigrees, it is pretty common (like Camilla and William) to have one born in the 18th century.
And we should not forget that the Black Death in the 14th century wiped out at least a third of the European gene pool.. across the board. It was also a factor on and off for many years afterwards.

Originally Posted by Marc23
This makes Camilla more closely related to her stepson William than to her husband ;-)

Actually, Camilla could be much more closely related to Charles if the rumors are true about her grandmother. Sonia Rosemary Keppel was widely believed to have been the illegitimate daughter of Edward VII.. and if that is the case, Camilla would be Charles' first cousin twice removed (of the half blood, of course).
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  #135  
Old 06-18-2011, 08:56 AM
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Originally Posted by nascarlucy View Post
Many of those in the British nobility can trace their royal ancestry to women (primarily those who were royal mistresses). Since many of these children later married others who had similiar backgrounds (they often married other nobles rather than royals), it's not really surprising that people like Princess Diana had more royal blood than the royals. The royal blood line was kept in the family by these marriages. I would also bet that this is true in other countries as well.
Three of the oldest Royal Houses of Europe are the Welfs (Guelphs), Wittelsbachs and Oldenburgs. They all were souverain reigning Houses before William the Conqueror came to Britain. George I. was the heir of the Guelfs and son of a Wittelsbach-princess of the Palatinate (the oldest electoral House in Germany). From him in direct Royal line is Elizabeth II. descended - her only non-Royal blood came from her mother's side who had the same rank as Lady Diana Spencer, so according to your theory the Queen Mother had a lot of Royal blood as well even though she was only a lady from the nobility.

Queen Elizabeth's husband and father of her children is a male-line prince from the House of Oldenburg (rulers of Denmark & Greece branch). His only slightly non-Royal blood (but princely) comes from his mother's side whose father had been a male-line prince from a princely side-branch of another ancient Souverain House of Germany (Granddukes of Hesse) while her mother was a direct descendant of the main and reigning branch, daughter of the reigning Grandduke and his wife, British princess Alice, a daughter of queen Victoria.

So when I count the Royals in Prince Charles' lineage, I find that only a grandmother and a great-great grandmother were not Royal, but both daughters of an Earl and Count respectively. And all Royals came from the right side of the blankett and of equal marriages.

Now please explain to me how Lady Diana Spencer could have had more Royal blood than her husband?
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  #136  
Old 06-18-2011, 10:42 PM
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...Now please explain to me how Lady Diana Spencer could have had more Royal blood than her husband?
I believe that the author of the post to which you are referring, refers to Diana and the British aristocracy's English or British royal blood. There is no doubt that the present Royal family has a healthy serving of German royal blood. In fact, wasn't that a perceived problem for quite a bit of time?
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  #137  
Old 06-19-2011, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by NotAPretender View Post
I believe that the author of the post to which you are referring, refers to Diana and the British aristocracy's English or British royal blood. There is no doubt that the present Royal family has a healthy serving of German royal blood. In fact, wasn't that a perceived problem for quite a bit of time?
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Originally Posted by NotAPretender View Post
I believe that the author of the post to which you are referring, refers to Diana and the British aristocracy's English or British royal blood. There is no doubt that the present Royal family has a healthy serving of German royal blood. In fact, wasn't that a perceived problem for quite a bit of time?
Hm... that is something I don't understand. With the Glorious Revolution/Bill of Rights the British aristocracy who ruled at that time through out the legitimate Stuart heir due to the fatc that he was catholic and they wanted a protestant Royal family. We heard about Diana's claim that her family was involved in making this decision. But once this decision was made, it had to be a Germanic Royal family with female descent from the Stuarts as there were not other options available.

Take Queen Mary II. and her husband William of Orange - the House of Nassau-Orange is of course a German House, deriving from the region of Nassau in Hesse,
If these two had children, these would have reigned due to their double descent from Stuart-princesses: Mary, Princess Royal, daughter of James I/VI. was the mother of William of Orange who married his cousin Mary, daughter of James II./VII. But the dynasty would have been named after William of Orange: Nassau-Orange.

Next in line was Queen Anne, second daughter of James II. and sister of Mary II. She was married to Prince George of Denmark and all her children (which died in childhood) were prince/princess of Denmark and Norway in addition to the British titles acquired by them due to the Bill of Rights of 1689, which established Anne's and her children's claim to the throne. In case her son William of Gloucester had survived, he would have become king of the Uk after Anne's death. With him the dynasty would have become the House of Oldenburg, another Royal House with German origins.

After Anne, next in the protestant line of the House of Stuart were the protestant descendants of Princess Elizabeth Stuart, daughter of James I/IV.

All other Stuart descendants with a better claim (through king Charles I.) to the throne were Catholics, including the direct male-line heirs of James II. and the descendants of the sister of Charles II and James II., Henriette Anne who had married the Catholic Duke d'Orleans (brother of Louis XIV. of France) and left only daughters who had married into Catholic dynasties of Italy.

To understand the situation better one should know that in these days it was very normal and very easy to switch faith. Eg. the children of Elizabeth Stuart, queen of Bohemia and electress of the Palatinate.

Elizabeth Stuart had married into the senior, electorial line of the House of Wittelsbach on marrying the Prince Elector of the Palatinate. This line of the House of Wittelsbach was (rather newly) protestant, making the Prince Elector the senior German protestant prince. So when the Bohemians decided to become Protestants on splitting from the Catholic Habsburg rulership, they offered their crown to Elizabeth Stuarts husband. He became king of Bohemia and she his queen, but only for one winter. Then he had not only lost his kingdom but the Palatinate and his electorship as well, which was taken over by the Bavarian Catholic Wittelsbachs, turning them into the Premier Prince Electors of Germany. The Electress Sophia was their youngest daughter.

Her eldest brother (a protestant) inherited his father's claims to the Palatinate and succeeded in restoring his reign there but was only given a newly-created Electorate. He had only one legitimate son (who did not survive his father for long and had no children) and one daughter, who had married the Duke of Orleans after the death of his first wife. So both wifes of the Duke of Orleans lost their and their descendants claim to the Crown of the UK because of marriages to that Catholic Duke.
Other brothers of Sophia served in England as true paladins of their cousin king Charles I. but left no (legitimate) children. Another brother married Princess Anna Gonzaga and became Catholic, so his daughters had no claim to the British Crown as well. Two sisters became abbesses, interesting enough one a Catholic Abbess in France, the other a Protestant Abbess in Prussia.

All that left Sophia as the only child of Elizabeth Stuart with protestant children. The Wittelsbach-princess Sophia of the Palatinate, princess of Bohemia had married the heir to the Electorate of Hanover, the senior prince of the Royal House of Welf (Guelph). And after her, there simply were no other protestant Stuart-descendants available in Europe, only Catholic princesses who had married into other Catholic dynasties.

And they couldn't go up the lineage of the Stuart family, because James I./VI. was the only child of Mary Queen of Scots and Lord Darnley, and both Mary and her father had been the only legitimate children of their parents, so besides him there were no other Stuarts with a Tudor claim to the throne of England.

So the Hanoverans were the only protestant claimants to the thrones of the Stuarts and the Tudors. As the British parliament wanted a protestant dynasty, they had to take them.... In any case, even the Catholic alternatives which could have been seriously considered ended with the death of Bonnie Prince Charlie and later his brother Catholic Cardinal Henry Stuart without legitimate children in 1808.

From then on it was the Protestant Hanoverans or the Catholic House of Savoy with Charles Emanuel of Sardina as the other choice. No wonder the British parliament stuck with the Hanoverans...

So when we consider the current Royal's claim to the thrones of England (via Margaret Tudor, aunt of Elizabeth I:) and Scotland (via James VI./I., son of Mary Queen of Scots) then it's difficult to say how you could be closer related (that is, have more "Royal blood") if you don't go for the Catholic Duke of Bavaria whose direct claim goes via Margaret Tudor for England and Charles I. for Scotland and that only is one generation: as Elizabeth Stuart, the current queen's ancestress, was Charles I.'s sister. And if we take illegitimate blood, then we end up with just another generation, as Diana could claim descent from Charles II, son of Charles I. and nephew of Elizabeth Stuart In addition there are several illegitimate lines of descent from Elizabeth Stuart's sons, notably through Prince Rupert, Duke of Cumberland and his daughter Ruperta.

BTW: did you know that Charles Spencer wrote a biography on this Prince?
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  #138  
Old 07-12-2011, 12:50 PM
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Fascinating thread. I especially enjoyed the connection between Camilla and Will - very interesting.

I too marvel at how Queen Elizabeth II has managed to arrive on the throne - defying any number of supposed rules that kept other women from the throne. Certainly, the royal landscape changed dramatically with the ascension of Mary and then Elizabeth I. But the fact that there were Tudors on the throne is such an intriguing set of puzzles, in itself.
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  #139  
Old 10-03-2011, 04:14 PM
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Family History

Does anyone know of a good source where a person could do research on a who's who of the British ROyal family. I know it can be done on Wikipedia, but as that can be easily changed it is not the most reliable of sources. I would like to look especially into the family of the likes of Lady Diana, Sarah Ferguson, Edwards wife, Anne's Husbands etc and their family history and go back as far a is possible. I know some of them are related etc and that many of them come from illegitimate children by one of the Kings. I want to do this as i am aware that Diana's family (on her mother's side) came from an area not too far from me, they may have moved to an area where i have family connections and may be related to her in some way, but way out.
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  #140  
Old 10-03-2011, 04:44 PM
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Well you could look at Burkes Peerage, or perhaps ancestry.com
The King that both Diana and Sarah descend from is Charles II through his many mistresses.
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